We need your stuff! Contact Trill Zapatero inworld about donating your transferable objects to help raise money for RAWA
Tuesday, 31 May 2011
We need your stuff! Contact Trill Zapatero inworld about donating your transferable objects to help raise money for RAWA
Wednesday, 25 May 2011
This machinima is a metaphorical tale, questioning relationships established between reality and virtuality through our avatars and the play on the double meaning of the word 'avatar' refering to its original Sanskrit meaning of a spiritual quest.
And well done to SLLU Artivists,
"Object" - Video by SL Artivist Taubchen Sonnenkern HERE ***NEW***
RAWA FUNDRAISER HERE
TRILL ZAPATERO, Afghanistan and Fashion! (Video) - HERE
OUR NEW MUSIC GROUP HERE
Radically Queer Clubnight HERE (Contact Tim Mersereau inworld about this)
SLLU FN - The Unqueering of SL by Scylla Rhiadra- HERE
"Just that?" by Millay Freschi - HERE
RAWA on Metaverse Arts (Featuring Trill Zapatero) - HERE
SLLU Discussion Chatlogs:
Puerta del sol - The Spanish Rebellion - can western capitalism survive the austerity measures forced on working class people? HERE ***NEW***
Was Osama bin Ladens Assassination necessary? HERE ***NEW***
I Wanna Live Forever...! Chatlog HERE
Net Neutrality chatlog HERE
"How workers of the third world are being exploited and are working their asses off for us western people to have our comfort" HERE
SL Left Unity discussion 14th March 2011 "Left response to a No fly zone" HERE
Sl Left unity Monday discussion 28th March 2011 - The Economic Crisis and the Austerity Measures - who should pay? HERE
SL Left Unity discussion 21st March 2011 "Nukes and Energy" HERE
With Ilsa Hesse on socialism etc HERE
With Agnes Sharple on "a place for Left discussion" HERE
SLLU PODCAST HERE
Protests and hard questions for the President of the World Bank - HERE
KIDZ - video by Sophia Rossen HERE
Scylla's follow up article -Son of Redzone: How to Protect Your Privacy, Why You Still NEED to Protect It, and Why the Landed Gentry Are So Annoyed at You. HERE
SPOOKS IN SECOND LIFE - Private Security Contractor Pitched Second LifePsyOps Campaign to US Military by Kanomi- HERE
Anonymous Revolution Online HERE
Questions about SLLU- HERE
Posted by Plot Tracer at 17:17
Puerta del sol - The Spanish Rebellion - can western capitalism survive the austerity measures forced on working class people?
Present: Plot Tracer; Sophiekittycat Resident; Josiane Llewellyn; Elle Finistair; Eon Republic; Celia Bedrosian; Chelsea Louloudi; Shiaida Palianta; Benevolent String; Kate Miranda; Ernest Genesis; Ilsa Hesse; Frederica Lexenstar; Jennys Willful
Discussion ...at the Red Star Bar. 7ampdt 24th May
Working class Spaniards are NOT taking the bankers bailouts with a whimper - they are occupying the streets! Come to the Red Star Bar to discuss their cry, "We are not merchandise in the hands of Politicians and Bankers!" http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/203/6/115
[2011/05/24 07:03] Plot Tracer: shall we start the meeting?
[2011/05/24 07:04] Plot Tracer: ok -before we start - RAWAFUNDIE Resient, here, is the funds avatar for the www.rawa.org fundraiser we are doing on June 18th. There is a donations prim at the front of the bar or u can give directly to him. L$250 helps educaste a child for a month in Afghanistan- which puts buying pixel shoes into perspective :) so if u can afford anything at all, give it to him or the donations prim at the front of the bar near to the dance floor
[2011/05/24 07:08] Celia Bedrosian: What's the ambition of the people there in Spain?
[2011/05/24 07:09] Plot Tracer: The spanish rebellian is part of the continuing real western rebellion against austerity measures.
[2011/05/24 07:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: ambition is that real economy and workers dont have to always pay when market crash but never have benefits when market rise
[2011/05/24 07:10] Celia Bedrosian: the media where i live present it as a massive right wing movement
[2011/05/24 07:12] Sophiekittycat Resident: what spanish people do is a lesson for us, in europe most our strikes are corporatistes, workers claim for same industrues rights and whine on other workers benefits , no spanish give a true lesson of solidarity
[2011/05/24 07:12] Plot Tracer: yes sophie - the bankers and the markets as they stand caused the crisis, but the debt rather than the profits, from this system seem to be socialised
[2011/05/24 07:12] Kate Miranda: I am interested in Celia's question about truth and media. I was very involved in the Ontario Canada city-wide shutdowns in protest against mid-90's social program cuts by a right-wing government and the media definitely distorted our messages
[2011/05/24 07:12] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/05/24 07:13] Plot Tracer: a friend of mine - he is 87 - tells me about returning from ww2 and then the UK votiong for a socialist programme. the biggest mistake made, he says, is that the newspapers remained in the hands of the rich (Lord Rothermere etc)
[2011/05/24 07:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: what makes me sad is that this spanish movement stay just spanish, where is our solidarity ?
[2011/05/24 07:15] Benevolent String: hardly gets any coverage at all
[2011/05/24 07:15] Celia Bedrosian: it'll happen anywhere
[2011/05/24 07:15] Plot Tracer: I know that here in the UK our media are more interested in the sexual foibles of footballers; the royals and their visits and Obama drinking guiness yesterday. no mention on rolling news about spain at all.
[2011/05/24 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: in france we dont hear so much about but i know that le monde newspaper write very well about them, saying they give to us french a true lesson in what should be a movement , the solidarity between workers ibn a common movement
[2011/05/24 07:16] Plot Tracer: yes sophia - i think it is important tht people reaslise in the economically globalised world, were capitali and capitalists are golbalised, the workers, poor and middle classes need to become globalised as well.
[2011/05/24 07:17] Celia Bedrosian: or the opposite
[2011/05/24 07:17] Sophiekittycat Resident: unglobalised ? it would make split us come back to nationalism
[2011/05/24 07:18] Chelsea Louloudi: unfortunately for workers, globalised means cheaper labour
[2011/05/24 07:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: nah we need to unite not to return to small regions and corporatisms
[2011/05/24 07:18] Plot Tracer: On top of the bailouts governments have been printing money (quantitative easing) and buying bonds from the banks. Where has all the money gone? Well not much has gone into the real economy through loans to individuals, small businesses or corporations. It is in the banks coffers to prop up their ailing businesses or being used for speculation on the financial markets.
[2011/05/24 07:18] Plot Tracer: yes chelsea
[2011/05/24 07:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: even unglobalised it would mean same because globalisation is not the problem, the no rules of the holly economy is the problem
[2011/05/24 07:18] Plot Tracer: globalisation is a one way street - it is a way to increase profits by seeking cheaper labour- labour has difficulty in following work tho- money is free... the world population is not
[2011/05/24 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: when we are lured by globalisation word , they succeed in making us think the ennemies are the foreigners. No we need to unite
[2011/05/24 07:19] Plot Tracer: i disagree sophie
[2011/05/24 07:19] Celia Bedrosian: i disagree as well
[2011/05/24 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: no plot globalisation is a word, capitalism is not globalisation
[2011/05/24 07:19] Plot Tracer: i think that nationalism is making that happen
[2011/05/24 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: globalisation it is earth being small because we can communicate easy and trade easy
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: nationalism and ecomomic liberal globalisation need each other to survive
[2011/05/24 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: globalisation could be without ultra capitalism
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: well - lets define globalisation
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: as it stands now, globalisation is the freedom of capital to speed around the world
[2011/05/24 07:20] Chelsea Louloudi: think we're way past capitalism now
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: nothing more
[2011/05/24 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: nationalism can survive without liberal economy , facism, stalinism have show it and nationalism existed far before capitalism- we are lured fooled by words
[2011/05/24 07:21] Plot Tracer: globalisation is not about poor workers in malawi being able to sell their labour in the uk etc
[2011/05/24 07:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: marx understood it, proletarians of all countries unite- not the opposite,
[2011/05/24 07:21] Benevolent String: globalization is free movement for capital and increased immobility for people.
[2011/05/24 07:21] Plot Tracer: ok - globalisation has meant that in the uk we are 3 days from starvation- we don’t produce food
[2011/05/24 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: no globalisation is not this, it is capitalism and holy money
[2011/05/24 07:22] Plot Tracer: as it is cheaper to do so in other parts of the world and import
[2011/05/24 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: globalisation it is internet, easy trade, it is information on all planet
[2011/05/24 07:22] Celia Bedrosian: that has minuses as well
[2011/05/24 07:22] Plot Tracer: so - nationalsim - and not trading with the rest of the world will mean starvation for the uk
[2011/05/24 07:22] Frederica Lexenstar: we could just say "corporate globalization" and "global labour unity"
[2011/05/24 07:22] Plot Tracer: but sophie - with all respect - that is the definition they are selling u
[2011/05/24 07:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: yep frederika
[2011/05/24 07:23] Kate Miranda: I think there is a way that the term "globalization" is used by captilalists in "free trade" agreements and a different way that it is used by international union movements and human rights activists
[2011/05/24 07:23] Plot Tracer: how free - how globalised are the workers in thailand who are working for 13 hours a day? or in china?
[2011/05/24 07:23] Benevolent String: perhaps Negri and Hardt's notion of multitude would be helpful.
[2011/05/24 07:23] Plot Tracer: how globalised are they?
[2011/05/24 07:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes they sell us it because as we think the ennemy is the poor in malawy or the china worker and we will not be solidar to the poor in malawy or china- frederika is right
[2011/05/24 07:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: we need to use the right words to see the right evil
[2011/05/24 07:23] Plot Tracer: yes Kate
[2011/05/24 07:24] Plot Tracer: explain, Benevolent?
[2011/05/24 07:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: or we fall in same trap than in 1984 of Orwell they build words to show us false ennemy and to hide that they are the ennemies
[2011/05/24 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes frederica
[2011/05/24 07:25] Kate Miranda: When unions stop fighting against jobs going elsewhere and instead join forces with the exploited workers in other countries, they achieve globalized workers rights. That is easier to promote in some unions than others
[2011/05/24 07:25] Plot Tracer: yes kate.
[2011/05/24 07:25] Benevolent String: multitude is from them the agency of resistence to global capital.
[2011/05/24 07:26] Benevolent String: but the concept is not fully worked out in their three volumes on the subject.
[2011/05/24 07:26] Sophiekittycat Resident: true kate and this they dont want they want us to think that china workers are our ennemies, no they are victims as western workers
[2011/05/24 07:26] Benevolent String: at least not that I can understand.
[2011/05/24 07:26] Kate Miranda: Canadian autoworkers have done some good work with Mexican union organization for example, but still on the shop floor, it's a hard sell.
[2011/05/24 07:27] Sophiekittycat Resident: eon take care my horse thinks that you are yummy
[2011/05/24 07:28] Plot Tracer: i agree kate. western capitalism is slowly losing the benefits the workers fought for and gained. i hope the workers in the new industrial centres in the east can learn from our victories and failures. but yes - workers across the world need to somehow unite. i think information sharing is very important. the amount of local activism i have leanred about in sllu over the years has been amazing.. the stuff that never reaches the main stream media. eg the wisconsin uprising was not reported here in the uk... but i got lots of my links through people here.
[2011/05/24 07:28] Benevolent String: at least avatars aren't very caloric.
[2011/05/24 07:31] Benevolent String: One lesson of capitalism -- Fordism -- forgotten by modern capitalists is that they must provide workers with salaries that allow them to buy the products that they themselves produce. Otherwise there is no market for goods.
[2011/05/24 07:31] Sophiekittycat Resident: true benevolent- ford thought i need to pay my workers that they can buy the product
[2011/05/24 07:32] Benevolent String: globalization fools capitalists into thinking that there are ever more newer markets....
[2011/05/24 07:32] Sophiekittycat Resident: now they dont pay workers in poor countries or very low paid but they remove work of western workers and they think that poorer and poorer workers in west will continue by miracle to buy
[2011/05/24 07:32] Plot Tracer: yes benevolent
[2011/05/24 07:32] Sophiekittycat Resident: the system go to crash
[2011/05/24 07:32] Frederica Lexenstar: yes, benevolent, and thats kind of the problem for a global labour movement....some of us have so much higher "standards of living" than others
[2011/05/24 07:32] Plot Tracer: and also fools people into thinking "growth" rather than sustainability is an answer
[2011/05/24 07:33] Benevolent String: yes, plot. too true.
[2011/05/24 07:33] Kate Miranda: But when you look at the cost of living in Mexico's Free Trade zones for example, it is surprisingly high. The wages there are not sufficient to buy the goods produced
[2011/05/24 07:33] Plot Tracer: this is from a friend, "These new banks role was to allow the easy movement of capital around the world to fuel the neo liberal globalisation project. But they act like leeches on the financial system. If you imagine the world’s assets as a massive cake made up trillions of dollars. If you cut that cake into enough slices and resell it round the world all you have to do is brush up the crumbs and you become very rich. In this giant financial cake there are about $ 82 trillion of bonds and $50 trillion of shares in public quoted companies. Each day the currency markets turn over $4 trillion of transactions. If I tell you that 60% of these assets are held by us through our pension and insurance funds then you’ll know whose crumbs the banks are picking up."
[2011/05/24 07:34] Plot Tracer: he is talking about the bigger banks that emerged after globalisation
[2011/05/24 07:34] Benevolent String: I'm afraid that I have to get back to work... Not that my labor contributes much to the world economy..... Bye for now.
[2011/05/24 07:34] Jennys Willful: Hi Kitty... hello everyone
[2011/05/24 07:35] Ilsa Hesse: global labor movements must recognize that A) the cost of living changes from place to place, and that B) the expected style of living does as well. you can not, as a westerner, expect everyone to want, or have your style of living... honestly, we do almost as much damage with our ways of sopping our guilt over our supposedly better class of living as we do with our capitalism and colonialism
[2011/05/24 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: thanks to have come benevolent
[2011/05/24 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: and thanks for what you said
[2011/05/24 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can keep high standard of living, the problem is that the way things are produced is the cheapest the most dammaging for the planet and people. The problem is not high standards of living but how things are produced and once again problem is the need of quick money for the banks without care of future
[2011/05/24 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: silence ? jason or freddy are here ?
[2011/05/24 07:38] Frederica Lexenstar: I'm thinking about standards of living :-P
[2011/05/24 07:38] Plot Tracer: ilsa - if all of the planet was to have the same standard of living as the USA middle class - we would need 7 planets
[2011/05/24 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: not really plot we would need only if we produced in the same way
[2011/05/24 07:39] Plot Tracer: if we were to have the globalised middle class lifestyle of the UK we would need 4
[2011/05/24 07:39] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - and the UK middle class as well :-)
[2011/05/24 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can produce as and more with more expensive ways to do
[2011/05/24 07:39] Plot Tracer: capitalisms growth is not sustainable
[2011/05/24 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: no plot only if we produce with same way to do which waste a lot of things and care nothing
[2011/05/24 07:40] Celia Bedrosian: i totally agree Plot
[2011/05/24 07:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot once again saying this means that it is normal that a group is rich and others poors because else planet could not stand it
[2011/05/24 07:40] Plot Tracer: so china becoming the capitalist giant it is becoming is very dangerous ecologically and economically. but in this current system, we cannot deny the people theres desire for a better life. a new system needs to be forged.
[2011/05/24 07:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is false we can if we change our way to do
[2011/05/24 07:40] Frederica Lexenstar: certainly a lot of what we get suckered into buying in the west doesn't really add anything to our lives,,,and maybe makes them less rich...but a) there is a lot that we have that DOES make our lives more comfortable, and pleasureable, and B) a lot of people in "third world" see our advertising and DO want the consumer goods
[2011/05/24 07:41] Plot Tracer: but fredireca
[2011/05/24 07:41] Plot Tracer: our use of fuel energy is not sustainable
[2011/05/24 07:41] Frederica Lexenstar: I know. I'm just saying
[2011/05/24 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: fuel energy is old way to do
[2011/05/24 07:41] Celia Bedrosian: that is just 1 point, there are dozens more
[2011/05/24 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: hydrogen energy is future
[2011/05/24 07:41] Plot Tracer: and the current luxuries enjoyed by us - the rapid burning of fuel to drive to the shops etc, cannot be sustained. so - a new way needs to be found
[2011/05/24 07:42] Plot Tracer: an economy not based on oil or gas
[2011/05/24 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes an economy no more based on oil is possible
[2011/05/24 07:42] Plot Tracer: and the short termism of bigger profits
[2011/05/24 07:42] Frederica Lexenstar: if you want labour unions to globalize, you are going to have to convince relatively high paid us union workers that a lot of what they think they "need" to survive doesn't make them happy
[2011/05/24 07:42] Ilsa Hesse: ...
[2011/05/24 07:42] Frederica Lexenstar: and a lot of them would disagree
[2011/05/24 07:43] Ilsa Hesse: or convince other countries they need to pay their workers a lot, lot more...
[2011/05/24 07:43] Frederica Lexenstar: which would make western consumers scream
[2011/05/24 07:43] Plot Tracer: or, federica, convince them that without the rest of the world, they cannot survive
[2011/05/24 07:43] Plot Tracer: ilsa
[2011/05/24 07:43] Frederica Lexenstar: I agree plot
[2011/05/24 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is why the problem is the economic system and by who it is nontrolled , controlled by people who not want politic control of economy
[2011/05/24 07:44] Frederica Lexenstar: I'm just thinking about how do we get from where we are to where we need to be
[2011/05/24 07:44] Plot Tracer: the problem is not with "other countries" not paying their workers. it is with the corporations moving to places they can pay workers less
[2011/05/24 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: true plot
[2011/05/24 07:44] Plot Tracer: profit is relient on paying workers less and less otr getting less people to do more for less recompense
[2011/05/24 07:44] Kate Miranda: US unions seem to me to have a very different culture than European and Canadian unions. They are more focused on wages and less active politically and socially, in my experience.
[2011/05/24 07:45] Ilsa Hesse: the flaw with cutting in to the "western style of living" and convincing even the relatively easy sell of the union movement that we should have a more "socially" organized economy is that even the countries with a "socialist" government there are a lot of people calling for more and more change... recognizing that, eventually, someone in the room mentions communism, and then someone says "where has it succeeded..." and no one can give a good example outside of "well, if it were to be put in to effect in Denmark, it would succeed!"
[2011/05/24 07:45] Plot Tracer: Kate - that is where our unions are moving tho. The UK for example, now has some of the most stringent anti union laws in the world
[2011/05/24 07:45] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - tarrif them the differences in wages to sell in your country.
[2011/05/24 07:45] Kate Miranda: I think Wisconsin was a game-changer
[2011/05/24 07:46] Kate Miranda: It was heartening to see the people in Madison. I was there in March
[2011/05/24 07:46] Ilsa Hesse: internationally we should be tarrifing businesses for that anyways... both to protect lost jobs in a localized economy and to raise the standard of living for the lower paid area.
[2011/05/24 07:46] Plot Tracer: well ilsa - the problem with the old communist states was that they were not socialist/communist. they were based on capitalist ecomonies, but much more of a pyramid scam than even capitalism is.
[2011/05/24 07:47] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - take out the one piece of the puzzle that is flawed and communism works great.
[2011/05/24 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: old communist countries never were communists they were dictatures based on stalinism
[2011/05/24 07:47] Celia Bedrosian: i'm not sure we should see it this way
[2011/05/24 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: only Yugoslavia was really socialist
[2011/05/24 07:47] Plot Tracer: the fact is, that places like cuba - or perhaps uniquely cuba - have become sustainable... but because they are islands of socialism in an ocean of capitalism, they canot survive... they need the global economy for certain needs.
[2011/05/24 07:47] Ilsa Hesse: ... Yugoslavia was a dictatorship, just a dictator they liked
[2011/05/24 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: union of resources, union of people this is globalisation, a lot of people in a small planet
[2011/05/24 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: the problem is the monopole of a few on the economy
[2011/05/24 07:49] Plot Tracer: ilsa - i like the idea of contraction and convergence
[2011/05/24 07:49] Kate Miranda: I think to a certain extent the problem is the lack of political sophistication of the working class. They are like the chickens voting for Colonel Saunders.
[2011/05/24 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: lack of education , lack of an education learning self criticism and criticism of teh world
[2011/05/24 07:50] Plot Tracer: and i also prefer the japanese economic model rthe then the over taxing one
[2011/05/24 07:50] Celia Bedrosian: explain education/sophistication
[2011/05/24 07:50] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - How much of Cuba's economic paradise was paid for by the Soviet Union's overdrawn checkbook?
[2011/05/24 07:50] Plot Tracer: but ilsa
[2011/05/24 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: near all ilsa
[2011/05/24 07:51] Ilsa Hesse: Kate- educate the masses, old, but brilliant idea... no one does it anymore
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: Cuba has not been reliant on the soviet union for 20 years and has something the uk or the us has not - it has total food self reliance
[2011/05/24 07:51] Kate Miranda: A lot of workers in the US support libertarian ideas without thinking about the things government funds that they need
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: kate - i agree re taxing - but
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: i also see a huge problem in disparity of income
[2011/05/24 07:52] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - the Marshall plan was great for Europe's economy as well.. how much of Germany and Japan's great leap forward was caused by the U.S. Dollar... Cuba is not a good choice to base your worker's paradise on.
[2011/05/24 07:52] Kate Miranda: Exactly Ilsa. I worked for Canada's NDP for 7 years as a staffer and we were taught that political education was a waste of time
[2011/05/24 07:52] Kate Miranda: Simply stay on "message"
[2011/05/24 07:52] Plot Tracer: if the top earners were not allowed to earn more than a certain amount and the low earners were brought up the way, these disparities and health etc implications would lessen
[2011/05/24 07:53] Kate Miranda: Mobilize supporters, ignore detractors... that was the strategy
[2011/05/24 07:53] Kate Miranda: The idea of a political program was thought to be old school, out of date
[2011/05/24 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: forbiding mad speculation in markets would fix a lot of things
[2011/05/24 07:53] Plot Tracer: i dont think we should all embrace cubas way.. but i do think lessons on sustainability can be learned from Cuba
[2011/05/24 07:53] Celia Bedrosian: agreed
[2011/05/24 07:53] Plot Tracer: and as for the american dollar helping - of course it did. but we are no longer in that situation
[2011/05/24 07:54] Ilsa Hesse: Plot... it is like saying we should base our economy on Israel's model... Israel's economy could support itself now.. but that doesnt mean that durring it's formative years it was anywhere close to being able to work without a boat load of cash poured in from outside...
[2011/05/24 07:54] Plot Tracer: europe has paid its war debt... and america is no longer the biggest economic power. Chinese middle classes are now being sold crap on a bigger scale. And there is a huge problem
[2011/05/24 07:55] Ilsa Hesse: Europe has paid it's war debt?
[2011/05/24 07:55] Celia Bedrosian: is it relevant?
[2011/05/24 07:55] Plot Tracer: israel could not support itself without aid from us and other nations (in the form of ams "aid")
[2011/05/24 07:55] Plot Tracer: yes - europe has paid its war debt.
[2011/05/24 07:55] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, they can now actually
[2011/05/24 07:55] Ilsa Hesse: which war debt?
[2011/05/24 07:55] Plot Tracer: ww2
[2011/05/24 07:55] Frederica Lexenstar: I was in cuba about 15 yrs ago, and visited a co-op farm. The american visitors were all about the organic farming methods they were using, but the jeffe of the farm said "if I had fertilizers and pesticides, I would certainly use them. We have a country to feed.
[2011/05/24 07:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: ilsa to sustain war cost europeans took debts at usa
[2011/05/24 07:56] Plot Tracer: u talked about the rebuilding of the uk and germanys economy after the war
[2011/05/24 07:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: the planet is every sustainaible what is not sustainable is the economic way to produce
[2011/05/24 07:56] Plot Tracer: i was in cuba 2 years ago frederica. some amazing things being done there re food and energy
[2011/05/24 07:56] Celia Bedrosian: that's an important point Frederica
[2011/05/24 07:56] Frederica Lexenstar: maybe some of the changes the activists would like to see will be coming soon, as peak oil reproduces for us what the blockade did for Cuba
[2011/05/24 07:57] Plot Tracer: i agree with that sophi
[2011/05/24 07:57] Ilsa Hesse: the UK paid something like 130 million of it's 31 billion lend/lease debt. they went much farther than anyone else... and that doesnt count the Marshall Plan after the war... of course, the U.S. did not plan on being paid back either of those debts...
[2011/05/24 07:57] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes plot you can do a lot of things under paws of a dictature
[2011/05/24 07:57] Sophiekittycat Resident: i dont want more to be under Cuban system than under ultra capitalism system
[2011/05/24 07:57] Frederica Lexenstar: myself, I'd prefer living under the Cuban system.
[2011/05/24 07:58] Plot Tracer: and tbh - in the current system, the only way to stop capitalism destrying the world, is to keep poor people within their borders, producing the crap we need to make us happy, by closing their borders etc.
[2011/05/24 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: my dream would be a more social and democratic european union like system, one democratic
[2011/05/24 07:58] Frederica Lexenstar: but that is probably because I've tried to survive under US capitalism as a single mom
[2011/05/24 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: then european social system is far better
[2011/05/24 07:59] Plot Tracer: sophie - as far as Cuba is concerned the biggest failure was the blockade by America. the people i mixed with and met (ordinary people) were not afraid to talk about politics etc... they were being kept poor by the blockade tho.
[2011/05/24 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is not only usa as a west reference
[2011/05/24 07:59] Frederica Lexenstar: but, plot, that might also be what made them sustainable
[2011/05/24 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: usa bloacade was a failure and made castro sliding on dictature way, yes castro done great things at beginning but a dictature stay a dictature
[2011/05/24 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, we have discussed this before, we have the right to trade or not trade with whomever we choose.
[2011/05/24 08:00] Shiaida Palianta: 'the right to trade'
[2011/05/24 08:00] Shiaida Palianta: if you look back on that 'right'
[2011/05/24 08:00] Plot Tracer: ilsa - i wont argue that. i think to argue that economically, the world owes all to the US, is dangerous and wrong. The fact is, the US economy /trade is in negative figures - it is relying on the rest of the world more than any other nation does.
[2011/05/24 08:00] Plot Tracer: so the us economy and model is not sustainable
[2011/05/24 08:00] Shiaida Palianta: it was the right to open up markets under gunboat diplomacy
[2011/05/24 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: Shiada, yes, if trade history teaches us anything, it is that the "right to trade" can be taken away
[2011/05/24 08:01] Kate Miranda: to a certain extent Cuba's success has been the result of re-acting to the US embargo. Their pharmaceutical industry was developed because the people needed medicine, as did their leadership in medical training, and their developments in agriculture were reactions to US sneak attacks on crops.
[2011/05/24 08:01] Celia Bedrosian: the decades of rights are past us... we'll have duties to face
[2011/05/24 08:01] Plot Tracer: and in fact brought down the worlds economy via sub prime
[2011/05/24 08:01] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, who said anything about the world owing the US?
[2011/05/24 08:01] Shiaida Palianta: Trade, born from the Industrial Revolution, was never fair
[2011/05/24 08:01] Sophiekittycat Resident: Cuba economy , crashed when ussr abandoned them
[2011/05/24 08:02] Shiaida Palianta: there is no 'right'
[2011/05/24 08:02] Celia Bedrosian: agreed
[2011/05/24 08:02] Shiaida Palianta: there is " I want to do so, and I will force you to do so"
[2011/05/24 08:02] Chelsea Louloudi: and definitely isn't fair now
[2011/05/24 08:02] Shiaida Palianta: "according to my will"
[2011/05/24 08:02] Plot Tracer: yes kate. their medical system is incredible - (and has cures for things that the us are in the process of stealing because they have the embargo and wont trade)
[2011/05/24 08:02] Plot Tracer: as is their education system
[2011/05/24 08:03] Ilsa Hesse: Shiada - the United States Marine Corps' battle hymn has a verse "to the shores of Trippoli" which is all about fighting for the United State's right to free and unhinderd trade
[2011/05/24 08:03] Plot Tracer: but their economy is shot because of the embargo
[2011/05/24 08:03] Plot Tracer: so highly educated people - phds etc, make more money serving tables rather than being particle physisists etc.
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: Ilsa, free and unhindered trade for whom?
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: IT's very one sided
[2011/05/24 08:04] Plot Tracer: but free trade does not mean a fair world - in its current form
[2011/05/24 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we have a choice i hope between usa economy dictature or castro like dictature
[2011/05/24 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is other ways
[2011/05/24 08:04] Kate Miranda: I personally like that they still have little live stages in the corner of workshops where travelling musicians and storytellers entertain for tips.... kind of like SL
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: this 'free trade' nonsense.. was never 'free'
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: it's 'begger they neighbour'
[2011/05/24 08:04] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - who is responsible for the downfall of their economy? The United States for not trading with them, or the Soviet Union for stopping payment on the checks?
[2011/05/24 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: both were
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: and worse, it's bullying
[2011/05/24 08:05] Chelsea Louloudi: yes, it's not "free trade"....just check why the WTO talks keep failing
[2011/05/24 08:05] Ilsa Hesse: Shaiaida - the U.S. Navy secures free trade for the United States and it's allies... see the Eastern African coast right now for instance.
[2011/05/24 08:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: Cuba economy crash not come from one thing but by two togethers
[2011/05/24 08:05] Plot Tracer: the US for not allowing other, smaller neighbours from trading with them
[2011/05/24 08:05] Shiaida Palianta: good grief
[2011/05/24 08:05] Plot Tracer: but glad to see the UK breaks the blockade, as does Canada
[2011/05/24 08:05] Kate Miranda: We Canadians do what we can with our tourist dollars
[2011/05/24 08:05] Shiaida Palianta: the US is the begger and the bully of the world, a very dangerous combination, imho
[2011/05/24 08:06] Shiaida Palianta: the beggar will come to extreme means to get what it needs
[2011/05/24 08:06] Ilsa Hesse: Plot? name ONE country that trades with ALL countries, even those they disagree with... ONE...
[2011/05/24 08:06] Celia Bedrosian: the US in particular, but also other parts of the world
[2011/05/24 08:06] Celia Bedrosian: Europe and China are guilty as well
[2011/05/24 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: my god we have fall in the trap of our own nationalisms or uthopies, we will never succeed to do the union of workers
[2011/05/24 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: do you see what we are doing ?
[2011/05/24 08:07] Plot Tracer: the us holds the trade cards, ilsa. the us is the only country that can trade with whomever it wants... (with the exception of perhaps china now)
[2011/05/24 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: we not search to unite we search who is guilty and who is the ennemy
[2011/05/24 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is why we will never succeed in solidarity and union
[2011/05/24 08:07] Celia Bedrosian: we need some self-criticism as well Sophie
[2011/05/24 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - which country is forced to trade with another?
[2011/05/24 08:07] Plot Tracer: the fact is the geo-position of Cuba makes trade with many nations impossible as its nearest neighbour is the US...
[2011/05/24 08:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: but Celia we not do self criticism now we search only who is the enemy who is the bad one
[2011/05/24 08:08] Celia Bedrosian: well, I'm in the Netherlands and its one of the most rotten countries on earth
[2011/05/24 08:08] Plot Tracer: ok - back to what we were supposed to be discussing :) one of the cries from the ongoing Spanish demonstrations is "We are not merchandise in the hands of Politicians and Bankers!"
[2011/05/24 08:08] Plot Tracer: what do people think of this?
[2011/05/24 08:09] Ilsa Hesse: since the vast majority of countries, "good" or "evil" are allowed at least some control over their right to trade, and trade partners, I think we should give up on the whole "the U.S. is evil because they have dollars and people want to trade for dollars " bullshit
[2011/05/24 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: i love it plot
[2011/05/24 08:10] Plot Tracer: oh - noticing the time... perhaps we could all add one more paragraph and end. (i don’t think anyone said the US was evil - but I think we are all agreed that the US system is problematic, no?)
[2011/05/24 08:10] Chelsea Louloudi: agree
[2011/05/24 08:10] Celia Bedrosian: me too
[2011/05/24 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot it is not only the usa system it is the world economic system
[2011/05/24 08:10] Celia Bedrosian: yes
[2011/05/24 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: i disagree enemies is not usa it is the world economic system
[2011/05/24 08:11] Ilsa Hesse: Plot- I would agree the WESTERN system, as shown by the United States and others to a lesser extent is a problem... I WOULD ALSO say that coming up with half thought out reasons why and how this happens is moronic and causes more problems than good.
[2011/05/24 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: china is now more capitalist than usa
[2011/05/24 08:11] Chelsea Louloudi: who has the biggest finger in the pie of the world economic system?
[2011/05/24 08:11] Plot Tracer: my last paragraph - i welcome the rebellion - hopefully people will question the fact the in most western countries who have suffered the austerity measures, the top paid 2% of their population could pay this debt off tomorrow rather than the way the debt has been socialised amongst the poor and working and middle classes.
[2011/05/24 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: usa have a finger , but china have a foot now in
[2011/05/24 08:11] Ilsa Hesse: well, Chelsea, after 2020, China, so you can start bitching at them after that :-)
[2011/05/24 08:12] Frederica Lexenstar: good point plot!
[2011/05/24 08:12] Celia Bedrosian: its not bitching Ilsa
[2011/05/24 08:12] Ilsa Hesse: well, not very constructive at very least
[2011/05/24 08:12] Chelsea Louloudi: bitching?
[2011/05/24 08:12] Frederica Lexenstar: time to stop privatizing profits and socializing debt
[2011/05/24 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: our lives have more value than their profits :)
[2011/05/24 08:13] Chelsea Louloudi: exactly Frederica
[2011/05/24 08:13] Ilsa Hesse: Sophie, till someone eats "the Man"'s liver to prove that, no, their profits have more value than our lives.
[2011/05/24 08:13] Plot Tracer: and ilsa - what half thought out and moronic reasons? Remember - we speak comradely here - and listen to others comradely. The fact is, ilsa, this space, and these discussions perhaps go back and forward, but i doubt you know the extent of knowledge of others in the hour they are on. But they do give food for thought. I think we all learn here- and we should all recognise we do.
[2011/05/24 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: ilsa i was saying what it should be not what it is and i talk of ethic of moral
[2011/05/24 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes our lives should have more value than their profits
[2011/05/24 08:15] Celia Bedrosian: i agree Sophie
[2011/05/24 08:15] Plot Tracer: ok - please consider giving a few lindens to rawafundie resident for the fundraiser
[2011/05/24 08:15] Ilsa Hesse: Plot.. moronic was no doubt to harsh... I would hate to hurt someone's feelings... uneducated, uninformed, not thought out, not based in reality, take your choice as to which you find least offensive :-)
[2011/05/24 08:15] Plot Tracer: or click on the pink part of the sign behind ilsa to give money (and the pic of the child for info on rawa)
[2011/05/24 08:16] Chelsea Louloudi: Ilsa, you might want to ask people who have had agricultural products from US dumped on their doorstep, if their lives and livelihoods have been improved
[2011/05/24 08:16] Plot Tracer: and ilsa - you obviously have a bigger knowledge of this topic than others.
[2011/05/24 08:17] Ilsa Hesse: Chelsea, when I was in Europe in 2000 I had to explain to my German host family why it was a bad idea to "help" the poor benighted savatges in Africa by sending them their old clothes....
[2011/05/24 08:17] Chelsea Louloudi: good grief
[2011/05/24 08:17] Kate Miranda: Sometimes good intentions do harm
[2011/05/24 08:17] Ilsa Hesse: most definatly Kate
[2011/05/24 08:18] Plot Tracer: I think people really should think about this. I disagree that it is harmful to share - in fact at times re-import stuff - to poorer nations that are caught up in the industrialisation forced upon them by western corporatism.
[2011/05/24 08:19] Kate Miranda: And it is also good to understand that sometimes people doing some things that seem really harmful to us have good intentions. When we see that, it is less stressful. We spend less time angry.
[2011/05/24 08:19] Plot Tracer: the shanty towns and the lack of clean water are as a direct result of corporatisation
[2011/05/24 08:19] Ilsa Hesse: Plot- agreed that is modern colonialism... export raw materials and be forced to import finished products at inflated prices.. .ironically, supposedly the reason behind the American Revolution
[2011/05/24 08:19] Plot Tracer: and if people can ease the poverty these people suffer, then i see nothing wrong with that. tho i would say it is a systematic problem that charity cannot hope to solve. the system needs reformed.
[2011/05/24 08:20] Chelsea Louloudi: http://www.iatp.org/iatp/factsheets.cfm?accountID=451&refID=26080
[2011/05/24 08:20] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, sending your used Michael Jordan (or IWW) tshirt destroys the local clothing economy.
[2011/05/24 08:20] Kate Miranda: Plot, I think that Ilsa is speaking about how the African manufacture of clothing has been decimated by used clothes
[2011/05/24 08:21] Kate Miranda: And that was subsistence wages for many poor people
[2011/05/24 08:21] Plot Tracer: ilsa -buying the things in the first place destroys the local clothing economy
[2011/05/24 08:21] Ilsa Hesse: Kate- no one cares about that as everyone does it,not just the U.S. :-)
[2011/05/24 08:21] Plot Tracer: and the corporatisation of Africa has destroyed local sustainable economies
[2011/05/24 08:22] Plot Tracer: so it is systematic - not the charities fault
[2011/05/24 08:22] Kate Miranda: I think actually it is becoming better known now Ilsa- I read a newspaper article on the issue just a week or so ago
[2011/05/24 08:22] Ilsa Hesse: well, 11 years ago I was bitching about it, and the same peoples still don’t understand it, so maybe not so much Kate
[2011/05/24 08:22] Plot Tracer: i visited north Africa a couple of years ago
[2011/05/24 08:23] Kate Miranda: It's an important issue, Ilsa, I congratulate you on your work on it
[2011/05/24 08:23] Plot Tracer: and the local traditional fabric producers and weavers are forced ionto poverty not by charity, but by the large scale factories and corporations moving in
[2011/05/24 08:23] Frederica Lexenstar: I guess thats kind of the same question I've been chewing on through this whole talk, myself...another aspect of it....how do we get through the short term to a better future...people who need clothing now, or inexpensive food...aren't thinking about long term effects on their weconomy. Cheap milk powder seems like, and I think IS a great thing when you are trying to keep your kids fed...even if in the long term dairy farmers somewhere in your country are going out of business for it
[2011/05/24 08:24] Celia Bedrosian: indeed, Frederica
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: i met people whose family businesses going back years and years have been destroyed by the corporations
[2011/05/24 08:24] Celia Bedrosian: how short is short-term? What do you aim for exactly?
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: cheap milk is a different thing. that DOES kill .
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: boycott nestle.
[2011/05/24 08:24] Ilsa Hesse: Frederica ... I deal with the same thing every day... is it better to pay 45 dollars a ngiht for a mat for someone to sleep on the floor... or 400 dollars a month to just rent them an apartment?
[2011/05/24 08:24] Frederica Lexenstar: well, celia, how long does a child need to go hungry before there is permanent brain damage?
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: i havent bought a nestle product in 20 years.
[2011/05/24 08:25] Celia Bedrosian: such a short term would restrain you in your possibilities
[2011/05/24 08:25] Ilsa Hesse stuffs the rest of her candybar in her mouth, and then stuffs the wrapper in Plot's pocket...
[2011/05/24 08:25] Plot Tracer: :)
[2011/05/24 08:26] Plot Tracer: ok - as always, folks, brilliant conversation
[2011/05/24 08:26] Frederica Lexenstar: yes. but how to reconcile the fact that for the people making the actual day to day decisions, it is THEIR kids who would otherwise go hungry, with the more abstract
[2011/05/24 08:26] Kate Miranda: It's good to end with good humor.
[2011/05/24 08:26] Plot Tracer: yes Kate :)
[2011/05/24 08:26] Ilsa Hesse: read the RL section of my profile Frederica- something I see all the time.. Some little kid with no home... and no understand of why they don’t have one
[2011/05/24 08:27] Frederica Lexenstar: as the US economy re-organizes...as it must...I don't particularly want my kids to go without
[2011/05/24 08:27] Plot Tracer: and frederica... neither do the families of children in north africa.
[2011/05/24 08:27] Ilsa Hesse: eventually, as a species, we must decide how much survival means to us
[2011/05/24 08:28] Celia Bedrosian: what would be your answer to that Ilsa?
[2011/05/24 08:28] Frederica Lexenstar: I know! it feels very paradoxical
[2011/05/24 08:28] Frederica Lexenstar: thats why we are all marching to the cliff like lemmings
[2011/05/24 08:28] Ilsa Hesse: well, no one likes the whole "IQ test for the right to procreate" thing...especially if your name is German... but we need to get rid of our population growth as a starter
[2011/05/24 08:28] Kate Miranda: I burned out on political activism due to the degree of discord between people of good will. It is very important to keep conversations positive. Thank you for your leadership in this Plot
[2011/05/24 08:29] Kate Miranda: Yes, it is.... I go back and forth between "Bread and Roses" issues
[2011/05/24 08:30] Ilsa Hesse: yes, the donation board here, be sure to give the kid some Lindens so they can go buy some more Nestle made water :-)
[2011/05/24 08:30] Kate Miranda: Mostly I look after the "roses" these days
[2011/05/24 08:33] Celia Bedrosian: i like the meetings
[2011/05/24 08:33] Plot Tracer: well - the thing is, L£250 helps educate a child in afghanistan for a month - the "value" of lindens ins more in Afghanistan
[2011/05/24 08:33] Ilsa Hesse: race for the cure rakes in tons via SL, but they have a major name brand
[2011/05/24 08:33] Plot Tracer: yes - the meetings are great. i like to go through the chatlogs again and spot stuff i missed.
[2011/05/24 08:34] Celia Bedrosian: we missed plenty
[2011/05/24 08:34] Celia Bedrosian: starting with the topic lol- Spain...
[2011/05/24 08:34] Plot Tracer: i am interested in ilsa's stuff - i dont agree with some of it - but am here to be convinced tho. Same with some others who usually come? jos is someone else i disagree with - but learn from.
[2011/05/24 08:35] Plot Tracer: but i think it reflected how global it is - the problems in Spain are directly linked to the property crash in the us and how the banks in Europe and across the world reacted to it
[2011/05/24 08:35] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, I think we agree more than you realize, I just am not someone who goes in for the whole complainer's syndrome thing
[2011/05/24 08:35] Celia Bedrosian: linked to this century
[2011/05/24 08:36] Plot Tracer: and I am ilsa?
[2011/05/24 08:36] Ilsa Hesse: I dont think so, as much as some others, but you buy in to it :-)
[2011/05/24 08:37] Plot Tracer: i want positive actions - what we are going to do - and who we learn from. I am not for small scale change either - i believe the whole system needs to change, though recognise it is like turning a huge leviathan
[2011/05/24 08:37] Ilsa Hesse: that is exactly what it is.
[2011/05/24 08:38] Plot Tracer: i think tho ilsa, i recognise where people are, that we all have a different knowledge and experience. I don’t think it is helpful, educationally or otherwise, to call people’s views, moronic. i think to make a point, it is batter to do so as "my opinion" and welcome others opinions.
[2011/05/24 08:38] Celia Bedrosian: yes, we'll never speak with one voice, we needn't even attempt to, but we should stay friendly to one another without feeling easily offended
[2011/05/24 08:39] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/05/24 08:39] Plot Tracer: conflict resolution and tolerence is a huge thing.
[2011/05/24 08:40] Ilsa Hesse: I would tend to agree Plot, I do snap once in awhile and become un PC... my life is in organizing, so I don’t suffer back seat drivers or sideline complainers well... nor people that have not educated themselves before they parrot some line they heard on the Lefty Radio Network.
[2011/05/24 08:40] Plot Tracer: you too celia... and you ilsa... (ilsa is a superstar by the way, celia... we disagree, but i am glad we do, as i leanr more from people with different experiance than mine ! :)
Sunday, 22 May 2011
Present: amadeus Belgar; josjoha Resident; Plot Tracer; Takiro Lowey; Will Trevellion; Aleessa Alexandre; Sophiekittycat Resident; Cellardor Resident; Borg Sugarplum; Ataraxia Azemus; Roja Zapatero
This is an emotive discussion and views will be strong. Please speak and listen to others comradely. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/216/13/114
[2011/05/17 07:09] josjoha Resident: unfortunately i don't have much opinion as i think Bin Laden is alredy 10 years dead...
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: oh
[2011/05/17 07:09] Plot Tracer: what makes you think that jos?
[2011/05/17 07:09] josjoha Resident: not that i'm the expert, but the sources i trust more say that
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: the arab "world" isnt too fussed
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: just the US
[2011/05/17 07:10] josjoha Resident: Bob Chapman said that once a CIA spy said Bin L was already dead - this is years ago - she was murdered by the CIA
[2011/05/17 07:10] Plot Tracer: why do you think this was important to the US?
[2011/05/17 07:10] amadeus Belgar: symbol
[2011/05/17 07:10] Plot Tracer: ie to show he is definately dead now?
[2011/05/17 07:10] josjoha Resident: he was in the CIA and knew the one who reqruited that murdered agent, so that's why he thought that BL was dead in 2002 or something
[2011/05/17 07:11] amadeus Belgar: ah
[2011/05/17 07:11] josjoha Resident: others say that too, and BL was reported as having some sort of fatal disease and was on dialesis machine at his cave - CIA docters tried to save BL life but i guess failed eventually
[2011/05/17 07:12] amadeus Belgar: dialisis ina cave?
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: reportedly there is a lot wrong with the videos from BL as well
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: yep
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: tora bora or something ?
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: the guy was a billionaire or something, friend of the Bush family
[2011/05/17 07:13] amadeus Belgar: at one time he was
[2011/05/17 07:13] josjoha Resident: Bush Jr. got an investment from BL...
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: the in ladens are an oil family
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: *bin
[2011/05/17 07:13] josjoha Resident: they are friends from the mujahadeen affair or something, when Brezinsky set that up against the soviets
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: osama was a rebel son
[2011/05/17 07:13] amadeus Belgar: yes
[2011/05/17 07:14] josjoha Resident: so i guess the whole BL affair is to keep the public busy, destract them, rally them around their king Obama
[2011/05/17 07:14] amadeus Belgar: its a big boost for him
[2011/05/17 07:14] josjoha Resident: reportedly Obama gained 13 points over this, at an all time low
[2011/05/17 07:15] amadeus Belgar: yup
[2011/05/17 07:15] josjoha Resident: i guess its working for them
[2011/05/17 07:16] Plot Tracer: i think bin laden was killed by the us last week... but i think it was wrong to do this. I think the US reasons were to kill off "Emanuel Goldstein" - Obama was using the right wing tactics to defeat the right wing - to get ri of the bogeyman. but I think he was wrong to do it
[2011/05/17 07:16] amadeus Belgar: Pakistan lost 13 civilians just after
[2011/05/17 07:16] josjoha Resident: Bob said something like they knew BL was going to die (from the disease), so they used him to play the boogie man, and they could then play he was dead because he would anyway
[2011/05/17 07:17] amadeus Belgar: Obama will need a new Bogeyman?
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: what was noticeable in the compound - in his bedroom, was the medical equipment and the pills
[2011/05/17 07:17] josjoha Resident: well, either way Plot, whether BL was already dead or not, it is wrong to do this because it ratifies extrajudicial murder in another country no less
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: i think obama wanted to get rid of the right's bogeyman
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: i agree jos
[2011/05/17 07:17] josjoha Resident: Obama should be prosecuted for this, its an act of war and an act of murder
[2011/05/17 07:17] amadeus Belgar: Legal Process?
[2011/05/17 07:18] Plot Tracer: i hate the fact people - and in fact my prime minister and the leader of the opposition here in the IUK - used the word "justice" to describe this excecution.
[2011/05/17 07:18] josjoha Resident: most think there is no legal recourse in the USA anymore, i agree to that guess
[2011/05/17 07:18] Plot Tracer: *UK
[2011/05/17 07:18] amadeus Belgar: well its painted as a WAR situation so anything goes
[2011/05/17 07:18] josjoha Resident: hence the way to get justice against USA ruling classes.... is more or less revolution
[2011/05/17 07:19] amadeus Belgar: continual terror
[2011/05/17 07:19] josjoha Resident: yes that's true, but it is another nation that is not a threat and they are not officially at war either
[2011/05/17 07:19] josjoha Resident: and as far as i know Pakistan does not allow USA executions of people in their territory ??
[2011/05/17 07:20] josjoha Resident: even if they do, i don't think USA law or tradition allows it either ?
[2011/05/17 07:20] Plot Tracer: yes - 1984 style, amadeus. tho i genuinely think that obama did this to end this "continual war" as it has, regardless of all the denials, come to look like a war between two civilisations - and obama and the went do not need thsat. they need the oil and a placated arab world
[2011/05/17 07:20] josjoha Resident: yeah Amadeus, they need a new boogie man, i heard they have put out 4 new ones at the head of Al-CIA-da
[2011/05/17 07:20] Plot Tracer: *west
[2011/05/17 07:21] amadeus Belgar: Oh
[2011/05/17 07:21] josjoha Resident: i think they want to drive the world to WW3, because they know the economy is going to collapse and then ppl will really get angry
[2011/05/17 07:21] josjoha Resident: hence they need a huge war to keep the people busy and off their backs
[2011/05/17 07:21] amadeus Belgar: Did they get a lot of inf from the compound which incidentally has been recreated in SL
[2011/05/17 07:22] Plot Tracer: i think obama and the US are getting reay for the class war and feel they cant fight on two fronts. especially as the poor nations will be rising up as well as their own poor.
[2011/05/17 07:22] Plot Tracer: *ready
[2011/05/17 07:22] josjoha Resident: Bob also said they are trying to provoke Russia to make WW3 happen, and attack Iran, others said a war with CHina (which i think they'll probably want)
[2011/05/17 07:22] amadeus Belgar: well
[2011/05/17 07:23] amadeus Belgar: what signs of war then?
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: 1929 crash, 1939 war
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: yes, and the government lending game is exploding
[2011/05/17 07:23] amadeus Belgar: because of the bad economy?
[2011/05/17 07:23] Plot Tracer: i dont believe the west want war... i believe they want to control, which is different
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: 'magically' all accross the board
[2011/05/17 07:24] amadeus Belgar: but eonomic control is diff when you are in debt
[2011/05/17 07:24] josjoha Resident: yes the bad economy driving ppl to revolution
[2011/05/17 07:24] Plot Tracer shouts: come in to the bar!
[2011/05/17 07:24] amadeus Belgar: eventually
[2011/05/17 07:24] josjoha Resident: plot i think they want control, but war is a good means to get that for them
[2011/05/17 07:25] josjoha Resident: so we are basically back at where we where during WW1...
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: i dont necessarily think so. i think they see what trouble iraq/ afghanistan caused not only in theior own countries - but the fact they COULDNT control
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: that has made them think again
[2011/05/17 07:25] josjoha Resident: the need to strike this new world war out of existence and transform it into the revolution the reactionary enemies feared and use the war against
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: even libya is difficult for them.
[2011/05/17 07:26] amadeus Belgar: yes its not easy now
[2011/05/17 07:26] josjoha Resident: eventually their forces would be spread quite thin i guess, imperial overstretch before their implosion ?
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: they got the biggest military in the world
[2011/05/17 07:27] josjoha Resident: then again, they don't want Iraq stable because then their troops might have no excuse to stay and conrol oil, and no excuse to stay for the assault on iran ?? (who can tell i guess)
[2011/05/17 07:27] Plot Tracer: i think obama is smart enough to see that and is playing an endgame where the middle east is concerned. he wants the US to control - byt being nicve - not through war.
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: use subsides?
[2011/05/17 07:27] josjoha Resident: why does he keep afghanistan and iraq occupied then ?
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: like with egypt?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: (or should i say: why do his bosses order Obama to do that)
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: Obama is in my opinion only a low level rat
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: who runs the world any way?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: money
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: not govs
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: no not govs i think
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: what does money want then?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: more money
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:29] Plot Tracer: i think he will pull out of iraq and afghanistan - but a new us friendly administration will emerge. same with afghanisitan... tho it is a very different country
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: troops in oil countries
[2011/05/17 07:29] Plot Tracer: capital runs the world
[2011/05/17 07:29] josjoha Resident: more money, more control, and less accountibility - so they want tyranny
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: whats new?
[2011/05/17 07:29] josjoha Resident: that's probably their goal plot
[2011/05/17 07:30] josjoha Resident: there's 4 ppl outside the bar
[2011/05/17 07:30] amadeus Belgar: yes Iraq will still have a huge US troop pescence even when they withdraw
[2011/05/17 07:30] Takiro Lowey: The world runs on its own, people like to use different means, like money, religion, force and others to gain control. More ore less successful
[2011/05/17 07:30] amadeus Belgar: hi guys in here..........
[2011/05/17 07:30] josjoha Resident: i guess that's the CIA, NSA, ONI and homeland security eavesdropping ; ) (just kidding)
[2011/05/17 07:31] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:32] amadeus Belgar: i ben too busy chasing the opposite sex!
[2011/05/17 07:32] Will Trevellion: So how's the discussion going so far?
[2011/05/17 07:32] Takiro Lowey smiles.
[2011/05/17 07:33] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:33] amadeus Belgar: well its broadened out
[2011/05/17 07:33] Plot Tracer: people are giving their opinions. there are different opinions :) and that is good.
[2011/05/17 07:33] Plot Tracer: do you have an opinion on the killing takiro and will?
[2011/05/17 07:33] Will Trevellion: Yes I do
[2011/05/17 07:34] Plot Tracer: ok - tell us :)
[2011/05/17 07:34] Takiro Lowey: Yeah, there usually are a lot of different perspectives. That's interesting.
[2011/05/17 07:34] Will Trevellion: ok - well despite the atrocities Bin Laden encouraged, I still think it a disgrace to humanity that he was killed in such a way
[2011/05/17 07:35] Takiro Lowey: Well, I have an ambivalent feeling about the killing itself, much is in the shadows from my point of view if it was necessairy at that moment. Anyways.
[2011/05/17 07:35] Takiro Lowey: I strongly disagree with all the celebrations afterwards though-.
[2011/05/17 07:35] josjoha Resident: oh by the way, some story i didn't know at all but that couldbe similar: Bob thought that Saddam Hussein wasn't killed either, but perhaps living somewhere in central asia
[2011/05/17 07:36] Sophiekittycat Resident: hello
[2011/05/17 07:36] Plot Tracer: cool - yes - i think the killing should not have happened. I think he should have been brought to justice. does anyone think there may be a reason why he never stood in front of a court?
[2011/05/17 07:36] Plot Tracer: he soph
[2011/05/17 07:36] josjoha Resident: (another old CIA boy, i guess)
[2011/05/17 07:36] josjoha Resident: sophie !
[2011/05/17 07:36] amadeus Belgar: he would have spilt too many beans
[2011/05/17 07:36] Will Trevellion: The killing of Bin Laden was watched by Obama and various others - yet we know little of it
[2011/05/17 07:37] Sophiekittycat Resident: because it is so easy to capture someone who not want to becaptured ?
[2011/05/17 07:37] Takiro Lowey: The circumstances of that fight might have made it impossible to capture him alive.
[2011/05/17 07:37] Will Trevellion: It seems to me the Americans are hell bent on killing people who's countries THEY invade
[2011/05/17 07:37] Takiro Lowey: If the goal of that operation was to kill him though I don't really agree.
[2011/05/17 07:38] Will Trevellion: Hussein, Bin Laden - Gadaffi next
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: bend laden country have never be invaded sorry
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: benladen is from saudi arabia
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: and he was not a resistant
[2011/05/17 07:38] Plot Tracer: (amadeus and jos - i know we are going over some stuff we already covered - but i think it is important to do so for the new arrivals :)
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: dont mistake irak invasion and to kick out talibans from afghanistan
[2011/05/17 07:39] Takiro Lowey: He, I'm sorry. I was asked for my oppinion ^^
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is ok plot i will adapt :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: as i say mine, it is why we are here :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] amadeus Belgar: fine
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we can say it and stay kind :) we are all nice here :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] Takiro Lowey: INdeed
[2011/05/17 07:39] josjoha Resident: we know they lie about everything so why would they tell the truth on this supposed murder - maybe they don't, anything that is official i don't take it serious at all though frankly to hear some of the theories of what may have happened (such as dead from a disease 10 years ago, or Saddam being alive) ... (truth = stranger then fiction, comes to mind)
[2011/05/17 07:40] Plot Tracer: ok - why do you think obama chose to take him out now? Do ypou think he chose his moment? do u think there was a reason he was killed? i mean, was he a threat in anyway?
[2011/05/17 07:40] Will Trevellion: Bin Laden was first and foremost an Arab nationalist who was enraged by the presence of foreign armies on his homelands
[2011/05/17 07:40] Takiro Lowey: Jos, indeed, it is difficult to look at the truth through all the fog and shadows. At least it is for me.
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: i doubt that obama was a saint........... terrorism, call to racial hate, to terror to murders, dont tell me that someone cry this rat death ?
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: that osama
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: oops that osama was a saint
[2011/05/17 07:41] josjoha Resident: takiro, yes, frankly i only check sources such as prisonplanet.com and bob chapman, al martin, ...
[2011/05/17 07:41] Will Trevellion: Fundamentally, to shoot any unarmed person in the head is totally unacceptable IMO
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: you were here to know he was unarmed ?
[2011/05/17 07:42] amadeus Belgar: there were weapons within reach they said but still no excuse
[2011/05/17 07:42] josjoha Resident: the more you watch the news, the less you know
[2011/05/17 07:42] Takiro Lowey: Will: Yes, but I wans#t there.
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: you could be sure he had not a weapon ? or a bomb system ?
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry if osama was a saint hitler was a saint
[2011/05/17 07:42] Will Trevellion: If he had, don't you think all those who watched the killing would have said so by now?
[2011/05/17 07:43] josjoha Resident: plot, ok, so to repeat: i'm ofthe opinion (because of sources that seem more credible to me) that Osama has been dead for 10 years, died from a disease despite USA medical personell trying to save the life of this old Bush buddy
[2011/05/17 07:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: we talk of osama death and noone care dto talk of arabians revolts we care more this rat death than the women children and men who fight for freedom ?
[2011/05/17 07:43] Plot Tracer: Does everyone know who Emmanuel Goldstein was?
[2011/05/17 07:43] Plot Tracer: is?
[2011/05/17 07:43] josjoha Resident: no, who is he plot ?
[2011/05/17 07:44] Will Trevellion: I am not sure - enlighten me?
[2011/05/17 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: 1984
[2011/05/17 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: goerges orwell
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes sophi
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: "the bogey man"
[2011/05/17 07:44] josjoha Resident: sophie, of course not, hopefully they will manage to make improvements in arabia even if their efforts may be infiltrated
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: the reason why they are at continual war
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: why did obama want rid of the bogey man?
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: oh that character, the head of the fake resistence
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes osama was used by bush as a kind of goldstein but at contrary of goldstein who was a creation , a ghost osama was real and killing people
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: to give the USA people a sense of accomplishment
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: was osama killing people?
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes usa created ben laden and then ben laden have turned against them
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: to pretend all the effort was worthwhile
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: osama killed people
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: i know he had in the past... but for ten years he was in a huge compound beside a military base in pakistan...
[2011/05/17 07:46] josjoha Resident: sophie, i think osama was not real, but a buddy of the Bush cabal and stuff, who funded and deployed them against the usa public mostly for PR
[2011/05/17 07:46] amadeus Belgar: The european terrorists were home grown
[2011/05/17 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: osama was helped by parts of pakistani secret services
[2011/05/17 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha and elvis presley is planning invasion with marsians ?
[2011/05/17 07:47] josjoha Resident: pakistani servises where said (yeah what do we know, but what sourses are there ...) to be budies with the USA security services
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: ²if all is plots if all is subversion one of us of course is a mossad and cia agent
[2011/05/17 07:47] amadeus Belgar: not me
[2011/05/17 07:47] josjoha Resident: elvis presley is dead sophie
[2011/05/17 07:47] amadeus Belgar: good one
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha evil people exist , murderers exists , and they are not just maericans or politicians
[2011/05/17 07:47] Takiro Lowey chuckles.
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: and osama is dead too
[2011/05/17 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: but there is people who think elvis is alive
[2011/05/17 07:48] josjoha Resident: that may be the case as well sophie, reality can be difficult
[2011/05/17 07:48] amadeus Belgar: what as elvis got to do with this?
[2011/05/17 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: reallity is difficult , people can be murderers monsters
[2011/05/17 07:48] josjoha Resident: yes, and various criminal groups can work together and design their schemes
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: but will we cry on osama when people in lybia in syria need help ? need people to fight for them ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: what do you think corruption is ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] Plot Tracer: i dont believe in evil. i believe in cause.
[2011/05/17 07:49] Will Trevellion: not all murderous monsters are total lunatics
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: dark deeds in secret
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: or the death of a terrorist is more important than freedom fight of innocents ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] Plot Tracer: there were reasons behind this terrorism as real as the IRA or UDA or INLA or Ref Faction etc
[2011/05/17 07:49] Will Trevellion: I don't think anyone says it is Sophie
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: nobody said that sophie
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot religiosu madness of osama is a real reason
[2011/05/17 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot you are european as me you know that we killed each others for religion for centuries
[2011/05/17 07:50] josjoha Resident: the secret servise agents, even if here, should not be a problem because their numbers are very low compared to the people, so they are drowned out by democratic protocol
[2011/05/17 07:50] Will Trevellion: still are doing
[2011/05/17 07:50] Plot Tracer: but - i think murderers in organisations like this who enjoy killing "the other" have mental problems - and would have been killers under other circumstances. i believe anyone who enjoys killing would have found reasons to do so.
[2011/05/17 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: propaganda brain washing , religious fantism it is enougth
[2011/05/17 07:50] josjoha Resident: osama was not a muslim, because he invested money on profit
[2011/05/17 07:51] josjoha Resident: which is a big no no in >Islam (as it should, by the way)
[2011/05/17 07:51] Plot Tracer: no jos - his family were oil people - ARE oil people
[2011/05/17 07:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: catholicism say dont kill each others and it not prevented catholics to kill each others
[2011/05/17 07:51] josjoha Resident: what they d owith money ? reportedly Osama invested it with Bush's upstart, could be zapata oil
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: but sophie - do ALL catholics do that? do most? do a large fraction?
[2011/05/17 07:52] Mila Tatham is Online
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: but some
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: so it is nothing about the religion
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: and not all muslims are terrorists
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: it is about what affected that person to do so
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: but some catholics were butchers then some muslims can be bucthers
[2011/05/17 07:52] Will Trevellion: agreed Plot
[2011/05/17 07:52] josjoha Resident: catholics tend to kill non-catholics
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is not because you are not white not european or american that you cant be a bastard
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha reread history
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: they can use religion as a reason - but i believe anyone who kills people for pleasure - or takes pleasure in killing "the other" is mentally ill.
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: what were war in europe
[2011/05/17 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha catholics killed each others fro more than 1500 years
[2011/05/17 07:53] Will Trevellion: I think you are right there Plot - but what determines mentally ill?
[2011/05/17 07:53] Plot Tracer: "not all muslims are terrorists..." - are most? half? 30%? 0.1%?
[2011/05/17 07:53] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/05/17 07:53] Takiro Lowey: sophie: I got lost now what point you are trying to make.
[2011/05/17 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: justa few just 0.00001% of muslims
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: sociopath/ psychopathic etc
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: are u sure about that figure, sooph?
[2011/05/17 07:54] josjoha Resident: yes will, that sounds wrong on that point, what is 'mentally ill' ? are ppl who are 'mentally ill' now mass murderers ?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Will Trevellion: who is to say we aren't all nuts
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: no - but i believe those who murder have a mental illness.
[2011/05/17 07:54] Takiro Lowey: Plot is stating taht he deosn't believe in evil, and you talk about wars. Yes there where wars a lot of the, some of them where cause by a misguided view ion religion so ?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Will Trevellion: or - are all mental patients, potential murderers?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot i have not the numbers but i am sure there is a smuch nice people in muslims that in other religions
[2011/05/17 07:55] josjoha Resident: sophie attempts to proof that Osama could have been a religious fanatic, adn that therefore the Government PR stunt (in my opinion it was that) could have been true ?
[2011/05/17 07:55] amadeus Belgar: i dont this religious conflicts are about religion
[2011/05/17 07:55] Takiro Lowey: Excuse my spelling.
[2011/05/17 07:55] Plot Tracer: Will - of course not. but those who kill for pleasure or take pleasure in killing have a mental illness. this doesnt mean all people with mentall illnesses are potential killers tho.
[2011/05/17 07:56] Will Trevellion: yes I agree with you Plot - but who has the right to determine who is mentally ill and who is not - mental illness is caused by many things
[2011/05/17 07:56] josjoha Resident: i think it is sufficient to say they have broken laws if they kill, and must be prosecuted and punished
[2011/05/17 07:57] Plot Tracer: well - i can say that i can determine that those who kill for pleasure are mentally ill. it does not take much determining :) but then we have to look at the causes of that mental illness.
[2011/05/17 07:57] amadeus Belgar: in a crazy world the crazy ones can be sane
[2011/05/17 07:57] Will Trevellion: Yes the determination/reason of why people do things is often overlooked by the demand for a "justice"
[2011/05/17 07:58] josjoha Resident: i don't agree that murderers are necessarily mentally ill, though many could also be that or become that because of their activities, i don't know
[2011/05/17 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: and someone reading us now could doubt of our mental sanity ?
[2011/05/17 07:58] Will Trevellion: very true Sophie - lol
[2011/05/17 07:58] Plot Tracer: look at the biggest killers in our society... Bush, Blair, Cheney etc. Do you think they were parented properly? Do you think that someone who will decimate a country to improve their bank balances are mentally stable?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Trent Infinity: I agree with Plot, you have to have some sort of cognitive disconnect to be able to kill another
[2011/05/17 07:59] Trent Infinity: the question is: what is causing the disconnect
[2011/05/17 07:59] Will Trevellion: Well let me ask a question
[2011/05/17 07:59] josjoha Resident: you could equally say that people's who support the wars ofwestern miiltaries are mentally ill - so in effect almost everyone is mentally ill (isn't it a sign of retardation to think Iraq could be a military threat to the west ? i think so)
[2011/05/17 07:59] amadeus Belgar: we get brain washed
[2011/05/17 07:59] amadeus Belgar: dont we?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Will Trevellion: IF one of your relatives/children etc was murdered, would YOU want to murder the murderer?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha but that people who suport other countries are mentaly ok ?
[2011/05/17 08:00] josjoha Resident: i didn't say that sophie
[2011/05/17 08:00] amadeus Belgar: voice?
[2011/05/17 08:00] amadeus Belgar: heard a voice?
[2011/05/17 08:00] Will Trevellion: wasn't me
[2011/05/17 08:00] Borg Sugarplum: i have come to tell you why esperanto is for optimising the human race
[2011/05/17 08:00] Plot Tracer: well josh - if there was a rule to say the first born of the president or prime minister was to be strapped to the front of the first tank in an invasion, do u think they would have allowed it? They are disconnected (to use Trents term) from their war.
[2011/05/17 08:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am never in voice i dont understand spoken english
[2011/05/17 08:01] amadeus Belgar: well its a young voice
[2011/05/17 08:01] josjoha Resident: there are often reasons for murder, such as getting rid of a criminal who is not otherwise gotten rid off - think of a society without law enforcement for example
[2011/05/17 08:01] Borg Sugarplum: well
[2011/05/17 08:01] Takiro Lowey: I have voice turned off. You should pe able to see in your nearby people window who ist alking
[2011/05/17 08:01] Will Trevellion: That surely depends on which part of England someone is living - accents do vary greatly Sophie
[2011/05/17 08:01] Plot Tracer: Well, Will, coming from northern ireland, i cant say i would. i have seen death like this... but i know few people who wanted to go out and kill more. they wanted justice yes... but they also did not want someone lelses son/daughter dead.
[2011/05/17 08:02] amadeus Belgar: its BORG
[2011/05/17 08:02] amadeus Belgar: sugarplum
[2011/05/17 08:02] Will Trevellion: Good point Plot
[2011/05/17 08:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: no will it is that english is not my language
[2011/05/17 08:02] Will Trevellion: what is your language?
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: to
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: left leaning comrades
[2011/05/17 08:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am french
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: into my esperanto class
[2011/05/17 08:03] amadeus Belgar: ok
[2011/05/17 08:03] Plot Tracer: ok - can we finish the discussion. if everyone sums up their feelings on this in one paragraph... remember the question was - Was Osama Bin Laden's assassination justified? Oh - and do people mind if i publish this on www.slleftunity.com
[2011/05/17 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot why to use assassination word ?
[2011/05/17 08:04] Will Trevellion: No to both questions
[2011/05/17 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we should use death not assassination
[2011/05/17 08:04] Plot Tracer: if u disagree with it soph - say so in your paragraph
[2011/05/17 08:04] Borg Sugarplum: how do you know me
[2011/05/17 08:04] Borg Sugarplum: no
[2011/05/17 08:04] Cellardor Resident also says no to both questions
[2011/05/17 08:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: assassination it make us side with ben laden
[2011/05/17 08:05] josjoha Resident: this person, whoever he was (i don't think Osama), was in another nation and there was no serious 'hot' war front between these nations, secondly 'terorrism' is a crime and not an invading army, they should have maintained their own justice inide the usa and could ask politely for extradition for crimes committed on their soil and that's all
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: ardent socialist
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: i think we should read
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: from
[2011/05/17 08:06] Borg Sugarplum: some anarchist texts
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha he was hidding and doing a terror was against people
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha ben laden was as dangerous for people than bush
[2011/05/17 08:06] josjoha Resident: sophie, yes, so they could ask that nation for an extradition and that's it
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: he was hidding and protected by secret services
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: by parts of secret services
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: noone knew where he was
[2011/05/17 08:07] Plot Tracer: ok my last paragraph. I believe Osama was assasinated - I believe he had secrets that would not have suited the present world order. i believe tho, obama and his administration wanted to get rid of the bogeyman of the east in order to anticipate what is coming - ie a class/economic/ecological new phase...
[2011/05/17 08:07] amadeus Belgar: US asked Taliban for Osama
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: he refused to surrender
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: trend i remember you from the other day
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: trent
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: the oil talk
[2011/05/17 08:07] josjoha Resident: in fact i have heard (but what do we know) various nations have offered to bring Osama to the usa, but the usa didn't want it because they needed Osama as the boogey man - it is all a great theatre, imho
[2011/05/17 08:07] Will Trevellion: many refuse to surreneder but are not shot through the head
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: and talibans are nota country they are butchers and slavers
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: ahmedinejad for world president
[2011/05/17 08:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: the one who say talibans are a legitimate group then support women slavery
[2011/05/17 08:08] Borg Sugarplum: sophie any democracy is bad when 60% of men vote rape is ok, this occurs with any kind of standardisation of vote, voting is a crude representation of what people think
[2011/05/17 08:08] josjoha Resident: Borg, lol
[2011/05/17 08:08] Will Trevellion: I don't support the Taliban - I simply say the way in which Bin Laden was executed was unacceptable
[2011/05/17 08:08] Borg Sugarplum: its why you need fracturing, and diminished government
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: so people can experiment with their own kind of mini states
[2011/05/17 08:09] Cellardor Resident: cite your source for those statistics, Borg
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: cellador, what statistics
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: i gave an example of how democracy can fail
[2011/05/17 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: i will not cry on ben laden, he refused to surrender it washis right, a rat is dead there is still many rats waiting to be erased
[2011/05/17 08:09] Cellardor Resident: you stated "... 60% of men vote rape is ok ..."
[2011/05/17 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: and not 60 % of men think rape is ok
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: yes, when 60% of men vote rape is ok, the measure gets passed
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: thats a fail
[2011/05/17 08:10] Plot Tracer: OK - has the osama iscussion ende?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Plot Tracer: ended?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Ataraxia Azemus: As long as 80% of women don't vote against it :p
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: because democracy works with educated people
[2011/05/17 08:10] Cellardor Resident: Oh, a fictitious hypothetical on yoor part?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: its social proofing of peoples thoughts and happens all the time
[2011/05/17 08:10] josjoha Resident: sophie, so yu approve of extra-judicial excecutions, or to use another word for that: death-squads ?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Will Trevellion: I thik it has Plot - this is deviation
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: yes
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: no sophie
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha if someone refuse to surrender ina fight what do you do ?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: it doesnt because
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: my views are different to yours
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: if he can kill you you kill him before
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: and i dont want standardisation
[2011/05/17 08:11] Plot Tracer: ok cool. those who want to continue chatting cool - go for it. those who were part of the osama convo - are u ok with me publishing a chatlog?
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: sophie, oh ok, well i agree to that
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: why not experiment with 100 forms of society, why just choose one
[2011/05/17 08:11] Will Trevellion: yes ok Plot - why not
[2011/05/17 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: we talk of an hidding terrororist in a situation which usa had an agreement with pakistan for such intervention
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: provided the arresting party is legal, which in this case they wheren't as far as i know
[2011/05/17 08:11] Cellardor Resident: we have, it's called history of civilization, Borg
[2011/05/17 08:11] Roja Zapatero: hi everybody
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: (legal and justified)
[2011/05/17 08:11] amadeus Belgar: they werent
[2011/05/17 08:11] Ataraxia Azemus: Some versions of the story do have bin Laden surrendering...I don't really know what happened, but he was unarmed at least. I don't think the US had any intention of capturing him, though.
[2011/05/17 08:11] amadeus Belgar: hi roja
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: Cellador what makes you think this form is perfect, if at every point in history we have changed and moved on?
[2011/05/17 08:12] Will Trevellion: Agreed Ataraxia
[2011/05/17 08:12] josjoha Resident: sophie, ah ok, so then maybe if Pakistan agrees to this kind of intervention, then there is a possible argument that it is right
[2011/05/17 08:12] Will Trevellion: and they have no intention of capturing ghadafi alive either
[2011/05/17 08:12] Cellardor Resident: I didnt say I think it is perfect. I dont think that at all
[2011/05/17 08:12] Borg Sugarplum: but then why do you think we should not experiment more?
[2011/05/17 08:13] Will Trevellion: Shall we come back and discuss when Ghadafi is executed?
[2011/05/17 08:13] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: that ben laden died as the rat he was not make me sad, what make me angry is that bush will escape what he done
[2011/05/17 08:13] amadeus Belgar: no he has a trial in the cards
[2011/05/17 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is men that the planet not need to cry
[2011/05/17 08:13] josjoha Resident: sophie, what makes you think Bush will escape us ?
[2011/05/17 08:13] Cellardor Resident: Perhaps I just objected to the idea of experimentation in such a context
[2011/05/17 08:13] Will Trevellion: I disagree Sophie - that is a very inhumane statement
[2011/05/17 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha what make you think he will not escape ?
[2011/05/17 08:14] Borg Sugarplum: Cellador: you think people should not have what they want? if anarchists want to live here and capitalists here and opensource lovers here?
[2011/05/17 08:14] Borg Sugarplum: have you guys heard of the free states project
[2011/05/17 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: will the inhumane statement is to ccry over ben landen death to make it more important asa subject that thoses dying in libya in syria for their freedom
[2011/05/17 08:14] amadeus Belgar: no
[2011/05/17 08:14] Cellardor Resident: Im all for that, Borg.
[2011/05/17 08:15] amadeus Belgar: good point
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: the free states project is where libetarians pledge to move to new hampshire and they have 11000 people signed up, its really cool because they can vote in the kind of government they want
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: if successful i think you will see alot more like this
[2011/05/17 08:15] josjoha Resident: my system, which i hope ppl will do, it will be effective (i think), we set many goverments to a high level of non-corruption, then we engage in a great law enforcement effort and part of that i we find the Bush family, and all the others; i hope and think we will find enough convicting evidence, and they did enough crime when not acting heads of state
[2011/05/17 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: i hate everyone death but i find more disgusting to consider ben landen death more important than thoses dying for freedom of their famillies
[2011/05/17 08:15] Takiro Lowey: sophi: Well, there been people, kindof dancing on his grave, do you think that is ok ?
[2011/05/17 08:15] josjoha Resident: Borg, yes i heard of that
[2011/05/17 08:15] amadeus Belgar: ok
[2011/05/17 08:15] Will Trevellion: Sophie - if you cannot see the death of anyone as a hmm .... sad event....then I feel sad for you
[2011/05/17 08:15] Cellardor Resident: Do you intend to secede?
[2011/05/17 08:15] Ataraxia Azemus: I don't have much love for bin Laden, but I think the assasination makes the US lose face.
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: ok time to eat now
[2011/05/17 08:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: no no it is not ok to dance on someone death but people have always been inhumane
[2011/05/17 08:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we have more important to cry on than him
[2011/05/17 08:16] josjoha Resident: Borg, i think it is not a smart move to set up that state, because you concentrate active people there who would then be easily murdered
[2011/05/17 08:16] Will Trevellion: that does not mean you can't shed a tear and move on
[2011/05/17 08:17] Takiro Lowey: This isn't all about crying, it is reflecting on actions and thinking, and that is important.
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: lol not that I did - but I was saddened by the way
[2011/05/17 08:17] Plot Tracer: personally- i think any death is a tragedy
[2011/05/17 08:17] Takiro Lowey: At least for me. Just because this is discussed, doesn't mean we do not think about other things as well.
[2011/05/17 08:17] josjoha Resident: that's true sophie, but if we decry the murder its not for Bin laden, but for the loss of the proces of justice
[2011/05/17 08:17] Ataraxia Azemus: I don't have to feel sorry for bin Laden to still find the US' actions questionable :p
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: agreed tai
[2011/05/17 08:17] Ataraxia Azemus: Right, Jos
[2011/05/17 08:17] Sophiekittycat Resident: will i hate violence i am paralyzed by violence, i find uggly to be happy of someone death but when i see ben laden death and what happen around on planet ?
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: sorry Tak
[2011/05/17 08:17] Cellardor Resident nods to the last few ccomments
[2011/05/17 08:18] Will Trevellion: I see what you say Sophie - but one death affects many
[2011/05/17 08:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: and i will appologize ( near as usual) for being perhaps too passionate in my feelings
[2011/05/17 08:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry i was perhaps rude by moments
[2011/05/17 08:18] Plot Tracer: soph - i love your rudness! :) you say what you feel - which is always good.
[2011/05/17 08:18] josjoha Resident: sophie, i don't cry over the death of that SOB bin laden either, why ? he was a murderer he got his own medicine
[2011/05/17 08:19] Takiro Lowey: I agree with you Plot
[2011/05/17 08:19] Plot Tracer: I learn every week from other people here. this is good - this is the purpose of these discussions. and it is good to know what to disagree with as well :)
[2011/05/17 08:19] josjoha Resident: okay sophie
[2011/05/17 08:20] josjoha Resident: many can scream and shout (me too), not so many apologise for anything
[2011/05/17 08:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: the lesson is that sometime the death one one can affect us more than thousand of nameless people death
[2011/05/17 08:20] Will Trevellion: yes
[2011/05/17 08:21] amadeus Belgar: i prefer to deal with numbers of dead
[2011/05/17 08:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: and it is a sad lesson
[2011/05/17 08:21] amadeus Belgar: each person has value
[2011/05/17 08:21] josjoha Resident: sophie, i sometimes hear ppl decry the French Terror after the French Revolution; then i wonder when they start crying over the deaths those ruling
classes, barons and kings have caused unashamedly over the centuries before
[2011/05/17 08:21] Will Trevellion: You have to have lost a loved one before you can truly understand the meaning of death
[2011/05/17 08:21] Ataraxia Azemus: Adios, Roja
[2011/05/17 08:21] josjoha Resident: secondly, they probably don't wonder about the risk those then defeated classes regain their footing to start another reign of misery
[2011/05/17 08:22] Roja Zapatero: see you, bye
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: who decries the victims of those classes ?
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot what do you think of the antiwar songs site ?
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha french terror was pure madness
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: i call it a warning sign to tyrants
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha terror killed people from all sides just for madness fear and politic
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: and who support them
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: hm, oh that's odd ? didn't they mainly kill the nobility at least ?
[2011/05/17 08:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha we not had so much nobles in france
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: well, the guillutine was a mercifull killer, too
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: you had that sun-king...
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: i'm glad you got rid of those
[2011/05/17 08:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: the sun king died of old age :)
[2011/05/17 08:24] josjoha Resident: i know, but his descendents, louis 15th, 16th..
[2011/05/17 08:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: louis 16 lost his head yes
[2011/05/17 08:25] Sophiekittycat Resident: but louis 16 was too the one who helped usa to become a republic
[2011/05/17 08:25] amadeus Belgar: was that good?
[2011/05/17 08:25] josjoha Resident: so, that's what happens if ruling classes push it too far ... they better remember it
[2011/05/17 08:26] Plot Tracer: ok - before i go - if anyone wold like to sugest topics for next week that would be cool. im them to me :)…
[2011/05/17 08:29] Will Trevellion: bye everyone - look forward to another interesting afternoon
[2011/05/17 08:36] SLLU donation box: Thank you, Sophiekittycat Resident for your donation to SLLU !