From yesterday's Discussion in the Red Star Bar
[2011/07/06 09:56] josjoha: 5 minutes to economics class: what is wrong with capitalism, and how to fix the system through application of democracy and distribution of power. 10:00am SLT, Red Bar, Flagg (scripted lecture & discussions).
josjoha: Farv, are you here for the lecture ? If so we can start if you want to.
josjoha: Be advised that these chats get published on SLLU and perhaps elsewhere. If you do not want your chat published, please let me know and I can erase you from the log.
josjoha: Farv, I'm fine with only doing it for one person, however let me know if you want it or I assume that you are here for other reasons.
josjoha: hi [.........], howdy
josjoha: Are you here for the chat & lecture [.....] ?
josjoha: Hi Tim
Tim Mersereau: er folks
josjoha: _ _ _ Thank you for coming to this class in 'real economics'. The 'chat-lecture' text is preceded by '_ _ _'. Agreement with what is taught here is not assumed, understanding what is meant is the only objective.
josjoha: _ _ _ Please, open a new notecard, so that you can write your questions into it.
josjoha: _ _ _ I am not your enforcer, if you want to chat through the lecture, go ahead. If you need less chatter, feel free to demand it :).
We can then afterwards discuss them all at length, or you can send them to me and I will do my best on them !
josjoha: _ _ _ * PART I: how does trade work (this is mostly common knowledge already, watch for '*** PART II ***' if you already know this) *
josjoha: _ _ _ - What is wrong with capitalism ? –
josjoha: _ _ _ One look at the world, and the failure of the ruling system is painfully obvious. understand its failure, we have to go back to the roots of the system: trade, ownership and tyranny.
- Trade, what is it at its most simplest ? - It is giving something for something: I do the dishes, if you fix my bike. I get the children from school, if you go get a new sun screen. You get 5 of my fish I caught, if you give me 2 and a half of those breads you baked.
- Where did it all go horribly wrong ... -
Cute as the trade model is, allowing every individual to inspect what he gets for his work, the suffering under its rhetoric since the
middle ages has been dreadful. Where did it all go wrong ?
josjoha: _ _ _ Compare the following trades to the ones mentioned:
josjoha: _ _ _ Compare the following trades to the ones mentioned:
"I own this land from the mountains to the sea, you will farm here but I will take 50%, and occasionally rob you blind when I feel like it."
"I will forgive you your debt, if you become my slave for life."
"I will give you a mortgage on your business factory building for 35% anually, get some wageslaves together and get them cranking already, we can both get rich on this deal."
"I will not cut your throat, if you give me your wallet."
josjoha: _ _ _ - Not all is well in the world of trade –
Robbiboy Rossini: if he makes a final deal...he should really think at it...or he is lost
josjoha: _ _ _ Can a defining trait be identified that makes a trade proper ? The ruling system has held that it is mostly a problem of consent: if both parties consent to a trade, it must be proper. That is an insufficient understanding of trade.
josjoha: _ _ _ - How does the larger trade system function ? –
If it becomes harder to catch fish, there will be fewer fish on the market, and the costumer competition for it will be greater driving the prices up.
Robbiboy Rossini: but he should be end the trade without being kicked in the ass or go into prison...
The fisherman spends 3 times longer on catching one fish, but will - roughly speaking - get 3 times more for it, while a number of fishermen will go bankrupt and have to divert to another line of work.
Over time the system balances itself, but that is not the end of the story (unlike 'the capitalists' like to portray it, so they can continue to profit from their abuses of power.)
The effect of market prices balancing work, is distorted greatly by power concentration.
The baron who owns all land can ask any price for rent, since there is no competition.
The boss of the big business can suck in all the created wealth that everyone worked hard for, because he is the tyrant of the group and his/her whim is law. The market for new businesses is cornered by investment capital, which is most profitable where labour gets squeezed the most, because profit equals turnover minus costs.
Labor rights and wages count as costs in a tyrannical business, not as profits !
The decision making party in a business sees the labour force as chattel, the less it costs him, the more he and his financier will earn.
Which financiers will grow riches in a model that allows free investment of money ?
josjoha: Who has an idea what 'kind' of investors get to dominate ?
josjoha: Company profit = income - costs, and labor wages is 'costs' .... so .....
[...................................]
If the wage of the laborer is the enemy of the company profit, and the company profit is the loot for the banker and the investor ...
Robbiboy Rossini: the people of a company itself
josjoha: Corporate investors is right also
James Ready (enhanced): shareholders specifically
josjoha: because they are professionals, the 'know where to invest'
josjoha: yes, and specifically what kind of them ?
josjoha: in terms of ... morality ?
josjoha: Good point Calyps, the professionals, big corps; but what kind ?
josjoha: Well it's fairly simple i thought: the ones who invest where labor is abused.
[........] [........wealthy investors..........]
[........] [.............who use politically weak people.............]
josjoha: The ones that invest in plantations in Guatamala, where ppl work for whip lashes and nothing.
Robbiboy Rossini: with the most knowledge
josjoha: In other words, to put it crudely '''the assholes''' between them. They get to dominate !
josjoha: yeah, the 'professional asshole' basically
josjoha: Money can buy anything, even politicians. Money is greatly powerful. More and more powerful because it builds and builds over the decades... And it is not in good hands, and therefore we are in trouble (at least on this count)... They seek out where people get abused, and put their money there. The ones that are good ? The nice ones ? They invest in good causes, nice labor, union stuff. But they won't get rich off of it !
Therefore they get outcompeted by 'the assholes' ... sadly.
Robbiboy Rossini: the problem for me is which kind of things do we use for buying things except money?...
Robbiboy Rossini: changing?
josjoha: Hold that thought, I"ve copied your question...
Robbiboy Rossini: metalls silver gold?
josjoha: _ _ _ [The most tyrannical and abusive companies, who also have the greatest market turnover, the most costumers that is.]
Robbiboy Rossini: go back to that basics?
josjoha: Good question Robbi
Robbiboy Rossini: metal is money in a way
josjoha: though not exactly what is covered here - metal money can certainly work, especially in a primitive society, but even today
josjoha: yes... continuing...
Robbiboy Rossini: ok
josjoha: _ _ _ *** PART II ***: solutions (now for the more interesting part!) *
josjoha: _ _ _ - Solutions –
josjoha: Robbi, we'll get back to the money question at the end, ok ?
josjoha: got to keep it moving a bit
Robbiboy Rossini: ok
josjoha: _ _ _ The problem at its principle is simple: concentration of power produces concentration of wealth that is not worked for. This then seems it needs an equally obvious remedy: the distribution of that power to all. How ?
josjoha: Remember the baron, he got all the 'land power'
josjoha: The banker has all the money power
The corporate owner has all the management 'bossy' power.
So they get rich, by using that, and using that to make 'bad' unfair cut-throat 'trades.'
josjoha: _ _ _ - D.A.V.I.D. model -
How to defeat the baron land owning feudal lords ? Give everyone an equal piece of land for free !
Those that do not want to be farmers can rent it to those who do, causing the market for soil rent to have many givers and many takers, rather then just one or a cartel of feudal lords.
How to defeat the industrialist owner, the 'owners of the means of production', a business is a tyranny ?
If everyone has land, then the power of land-ownership is no longer concentrated. We are going to 'fracture' even splinter all these powers, and give them to the people.
How to defeat the industrialist owner, the 'owners of the means of production', a business is a tyranny ?
right mind can accept such an affront ?! Are we chattle ?
No: we can come together in the businesses as well, and decide on the course of action and the all important division of the spoils of work together.
Farv Hallison: This sounds like the Henry George Single Tax Plan.
josjoha: Farv, ty, copied for later...
josjoha: _ _ _Turn it into a democracy, a free floating group in the markets. For a nation the same is true on a larger more extreme scale.
No more oligarchy, no more plutocracy, no more monarchy and its feudal lords: the people rule through law and vote.
josjoha: _ _ _ How to defeat the ... banker ?
josjoha: _ _ _This is perhaps the subtlest of issues, because making a loan is a consensual act.
josjoha: just in time to put banking behind us
James Ready (enhanced): sounds like libertarianism
josjoha: _ _ _ However free investment credit rules clearly do not work, not just because the bankers have managed to overtake the printing of the currency, or drive the nation off the cliff with their lending games that the politicians they bought engage in.
josjoha: James, it can be, however you can see a democratized business with its own land as .. a commune, then it is communism, too
josjoha: _ _ _During the industrialization it was more then obvious that banking is a menace on its own through it's financier games. Libertarianism has so far not called for democratization of companies, or distribution of land ... or socialization of investment credit ... or an absolute pepole's democracy.
So ... i think it is a little more promising - i sure hope so.
It can not be anything but a menace eventually, because it has to follow the rules of profitability.
It can not be anything but a menace eventually, because it has to follow the rules of profitability.
josjoha: * we are at half time, does anyone want a break ? *
The financiers financing those are the ones that end up dominating.
josjoha: battling on ..
josjoha: _ _ _It is an eventually inescapable effect, if at least business tyranny is allowed for them to invest in.
Then eventually the economy has to concentrate its power into a few hands, merging businesses into bigger and more abusive conglomerates until even the entire world is in their hand. The solution to this can be a combination of prohibiting lending for profit, and to install a non-profit investment system, which can either be coupled to the national Democracy, or vetted private 'good cause' type venues. It should also be noted that investment credit can be nice for an upstart, it is not absolutely necessary. I would hope that 'socialized investment credit' will also liberally (heh) invest in democratized businesses ... after all the ppl control it through the vote, they can demand it.
josjoha: _ _ _ - Summary -
josjoha: _ _ _ The ills of the economy come from concentration of power.
Trade in its most simple barter form is not a problem, it can and does work. But a trade system leads naturally into a money system to make it more efficient, and then the lending game may occur. If the society allows tyrannical businesses or other nefarious methods, that is where the loans will give the greatest returns, and through those holes society will end up dominated by the few for their own selfish and criminal gains. who invest in the abuses of the labor class are not good people, they are bad people.
josjoha: bad people ! ; ) Hence society ends up dominated by the money power in the hands of bad people. That is where the wars and tyranny really starts, as they attempt to choke the people and bring them under ever greater control.
we need to combat power concentration with its opposite: power distribution !
To distribute the power of Sovereign Government to all in true people's democracy: Democratic Authorities.
To turn businesses that for whatever reason loose their starter, to become internal democracies ! This way we do not hurt the ability of people to start up a new business, get it going and provide it with discipline, keeping the markets dynamic with the new initiative needed to equalize prices on labor amounts for all. Democratic Ventures.
josjoha: So you allow all kinds of businesses to start, both democracy groups, and single-boss types. Some ppl may need that !
But ... as the busines starter leaves, it goes to labor by law (unless it is tiny).
That way the markets will be dominated by democracies.
And tricks with 'we are a conglomerate of independents' are not recognized ...
To turn private finance into non-profit finance, and to leave the markets to their own ways rather then dominating them with finance: Democratic Investments.
distribute the soil - not wealth but opportunity - to all, as an inalienable birth right. To be more correct: 'natural resources' who are easily distributed. Democratic Demarcations (raw resources distribution).
josjoha: _ _ _ * PART III: in closing *
josjoha: _ _ _The economy will be rounded off by acknowledging certain sectors are innimical to competition, such as the infrastructure, the rail ways, the fact that the medical sector is largely not functioning well under an (exclusive) trade system.
Sectors of productivity that are inherent monopolies or for other reasons do not function under trade, should therefore be nationalized. We can deal with the threat of impossible competition from wage slaves in other nations by erecting tarrif walls around the national economy. We will be a little poorer for it, but more stable and more just, and keep our industries alive. There are a thousand and more issues about economics, but this is probably already more then should have been attempted in one hour. How exactly to democratize the businesses ?
josjoha: _ _ _What is wrong with a plan economy ?
_ _ _ What is wrong with a global Government ?
How does one expect to nationalize finance, won't that give power into the hands of an already corrupt Government ?
How to democratize the national democracy anyway, is what we have the best we could do ?
plement these changes, it is not like the enemy will recognize the truth and roll over ?
A Leninist 'vanguard' attempt at Sovereignty through civil war ?
_ _ _ The 'social democrat' tactic of muddling on 'in the institutions' without much direction ?
Imperialist war by the capitalists against all Sovereign revolutionary initiative, how do we deal with that ?
All these things and more belong in a rigorous training/education about economics, and each issue deserves a lengthy debate between positions.
issues and many wore are addressed on http://www.law4.org also (free for the cause).
josjoha: _ _ _ The system of Democratic Authorities, Ventures, Investments, Demarcations is worked out in a ready to go new Constitution, as a way of showing that such a model can be practical. The idea from this end is to have that Constitution ratified in enough nations to prevent Imperialist war on the Revolutions. This Constitution also has an innovative and extensive new model for the national Democracy. It is all meant to reduce corruption and exploitation. Feel free to make your own even better DAVID Constitutions ! Let me know so I can enjoy your work !!!
josjoha: seriously
josjoha: have a go at it !
Also presented for your consideration is an extensive system to implement the changes. If you want a lecture on that: ask !
Feel free to get more talk on these subjects at 'heavenly serenity' every Sunday, 10:00am to 11:00am SLT, see you perhaps there.
For all who managed to absorb all that and stay here (wow!), thank you for your time !!
josjoha: _ _ _ * Part IV: questions, discusions *
josjoha: thanks
James Ready (enhanced): do you think corporate lobbying should be illegal?
josjoha: turnout is beyond i had hoped for
josjoha: James, okay we're now in the questions section...
Farv Hallison: yes, but how do we stop it since the corporations have freedom of speech.
josjoha: _ _ _ First a round of questions to get the meaning clear, then a round of remarks and disagreements for the ol' political fistfights !
josjoha: _ _ _ Questions about Part I (how does trade work, and how it does not), anyone ?
Farv Hallison: how do you assert political power when the corporations spend a billion of your dollars on propaganda?
josjoha: all that was pretty standard, but added is the uhm ... power question, and investment credit danger, though the marxists already had that, too
josjoha: Farv, in the model I propose, you elect someone with 50 persons, and it won't be easy to 'lobby' something that small
Frederica Lexenstar: I came in late and am reading to catch up, so this may be a stupid question. But...is all soil considered to be equal? Everyone gets the same amount, no matter whether it is fertile, near water, near transportation, etc?
josjoha: In the Constitution is also a law against bribes, and politicians keep logs of 'gifts'
josjoha: Frederica, excellent question: the equality is on perceived economic value
josjoha: That is not easy to do, but it is the best one could do i guess
josjoha: _ _ _ Questions about Part II (solutions: National democracy, democratized companies, socialized investment, land distribution, trade), anyone ?
Robbiboy Rossini: sam amount of money in the basics for a person
James Ready (enhanced): illegal aliens contribute to dragging down American’s wages, do you have any thoughts on that
josjoha: James, in the proposed model the borders would probably be closed
josjoha: to protect the labor market - though it is up to the ppl to decide of course
Frederica Lexenstar: companies that hire desperate people at below minimum wage drag down our wages, not undocumented people
josjoha: James, it seems to be another aspect of capitalist games against the people / labor
James Ready (enhanced): most of those are undocumented people
josjoha: the unions here claim we should have 'equal pay for equal work' so that immigrants do not drag it down - but no chance of that happening
Frederica Lexenstar: are they?
??? MADDI (madison.gyranaut): it isn't illegals dragging down american wages.. its corporations!!
josjoha: chinamen ! :)
josjoha: I have heard that the USA has engaged in great hostility towards middle america in general, and that is driving these ppl north as well
James Ready (enhanced): as far as democratized companies, are you suggested it be mandated by law for companies above a certain size?
??? MADDI (madison.gyranaut): and it isn't as if illegals are paid well enough.. they are enslaved!
josjoha: The american corporations want a cut-throat climate in the economy
josjoha: the illegals are really the worst victims in it all
josjoha: imho
josjoha: _ _ _ Remarks and disagreements about Part I (how does trade work, and how it does not).
josjoha: _ _ _ Remarks and disagreements about Part II (solutions: National democracy, democratized companies, socialized investment, land distribution, trade), anyone ?
josjoha: _ _ _ Remarks and disagreements about Part III (...), anyone ?
James Ready (enhanced): democratizing of private companies would be law?
josjoha: James, in this model it would be Constitutional law, yes
josjoha: [quote] the problem for me is which kind of things do we use for buying things except money?... [/quote]
Farv Hallison: The opportunity for change comes when the present system is collapsing...here is a description....
James Ready (enhanced): America used to back its money with gold until the federal reserve bank began printing it for us
BrotherJim Jonesford: lots of peopel today
josjoha: In the model i am proposing for consideration, we would use a government fiat paper/electronic currency; but there is a limit to personal wealth at 30 times average of the nation.
Farv Hallison: http://fora.tv/2009/02/13/Dmitry_Orlov_Social_Collapse_Best_Practice
josjoha: Brother, yeah
BrotherJim Jonesford: personally I perfer the Share Our Wealth Society method
josjoha: Gold, silver, even 'tally sticks' can also be used for money
BrotherJim Jonesford: why should anyone be rich?
josjoha: indeed brother, don't ask me
BrotherJim Jonesford: if all resources were reallocated we could all live comfortable live styles
josjoha: the question of money is very interesting and important, but moving on a bit ...
josjoha: Brother, i think so, yes
josjoha: with all the technology we have ....
BrotherJim Jonesford: there are actual examples of this
josjoha: [quote]Farv Hallison: This sounds like the Henry George Single Tax Plan.[/quote]
josjoha: Brother, feel free to share
BrotherJim Jonesford: the Hutterites are a prime example of socialism in a pratical sense
josjoha: aha, Farv, what that : )
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all work together
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all share
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all do business together
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all profit
BrotherJim Jonesford: they live quite well
josjoha: Anyone having writtin downa anything, or whatever, put the boxing gloves on and let's debate
josjoha: _ _ _ [[ end ]]
James Ready (enhanced): I'm at work so I'd better not haha
josjoha: The chat is published, who wants to be scrubbed please tell me.
BrotherJim Jonesford: I dont mind my words being used
josjoha: okay that's that, thanks everyone for coming, i really really appreciate that !!
BrotherJim Jonesford: I just think to create a socialist system one should look at pratical solutions to achieving it and people who have been doing it for 100's of years
josjoha: Brother, what you wrote makes me think of the native north American Indians
josjoha: Brother, sounds like a good plan, who you have in mind
BrotherJim Jonesford: I do not know what they believe please inform me
josjoha: they have for example the idea that land cannot be sold, and they share that with ancient Israel, who also used a distributive system for land
BrotherJim Jonesford: ah yes
BrotherJim Jonesford: the church in acts also had the same concept
BrotherJim Jonesford: they sold everything
josjoha: they gave the land to each family a part, and you could lend it away until the next 50th year..
BrotherJim Jonesford: and had a collective treasury
BrotherJim Jonesford: perhaps the reason I sound like them so much is my ideas are thoughts are similar to ancient israel
josjoha: yes, and ancient Israel also had prohibition on rent seeking loans, actually that is quite common in history
josjoha: Aristotles was against rent seeking
josjoha: Mozes law, the Torah ('old' testament...)
josjoha: Islam, the jesuscult, all was against that
josjoha: The native indians who run casino's in America, they run them on a tribal base
josjoha: Everyone works, everyone shares in the profits.
josjoha: It is an example of democratized business !
Laslopantomik Yao: we should all open eyes, people are starving and die more then ever and markets are happy to see greece and portugal ruin one day and take benefits in stocks next... its all a chaos... im very pesimistic about whats to come
josjoha: And if one indian had too many blankets, a sort of currency, they would give it away.
josjoha: A maximum on wealth, by choice.
josjoha: Historical precedents ...
Robbiboy Rossini: need to go ...thx for these informative things
Laslopantomik Yao: sorry to get in middle but i really think power got the plan to make earth sink in a 1984 model, we are getting in it
josjoha: so ... feel free to talk and stuff, i'm eyeing the 2nd half of a pizza here ...
Laslopantomik Yao: to start i think all the very poor problem should be solved
Laslopantomik Yao: im very concerned about that
josjoha: exactly
josjoha: the rest ... oh well
Laslopantomik Yao: all the rest is very very intresting and needed
Laslopantomik Yao: i find your speech very good and necessary
josjoha blushes
josjoha: i have a website on this
Laslopantomik Yao: but really, i find that the ones who rule have a plan for the next 1000 Laslopantomik Yao: yes but they are wining, just see how bad its getting
Laslopantomik Yao: a drastic turnover is needed
josjoha: they are, and i'm trying with my plan to turn that around, take the initiative for the ppl
josjoha: http://blogger.xs4all.nl/joshb/archive/2011/07/05/664904.aspx
josjoha: but chat log is a bit... more stuff in between
Laslopantomik Yao: We need a Che-Ghandi-Einstein
Laslopantomik Yao: maybe its you!
josjoha: yeah i guess so
josjoha: but you don't need *me* only the plan, only that
josjoha: it's all written down, and then it needs ... you
josjoha: i thought i'd look like a half fool with nobody showing up, but we had a crowd, and made friends too
Laslopantomik Yao: thats ultracool, i understand that but normal people dont care abouts and dont have time for that
Laslopantomik Yao: i think this kind of thnking should be spread
josjoha: i know ... but if things do not get fixed, things will go wrong
josjoha: i think so too Laslo
josjoha: i do whatever i can, maybe you can do what you can
Laslopantomik Yao: but the system is made make this never grow
[2011/07/06 11:31] Laslopantomik Yao: i mean all is contrary to real justice to the mankind
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