Tuesday, 20 December 2011
Sunday, 11 December 2011
Posted by Neil Scott at 09:35
Sunday, 30 October 2011
I have set up a website for Occupy SL this weekend: http://occupysl.org/
That link will take you to the blog. Look there for a link to the Forums. In the Forums I have created categories for each of the working groups to talk and coordinate. This should be where the working groups can discuss and come to agreement on important issues, ideas, and actions.
I still need to add a lot of introductory content to the blog and the forums. And everyone needs to add content too. If you are a good writer and want to contribute, please let me know. Everybody, let me know what you think needs to be added to the site. Thanks! ~Merriam~
Thursday, 27 October 2011
Three working groups (or "committees") were created.
1. Direct Action working group
2. Media Communications working group
3. Facilitation working group
These working groups, or committees, are open groups of ppl who are talking together to generate ideas, discuss and work out the details and feasibility, and then to present and make proposals in GA meetings. A working group is simply a collection of ppl who are focused on one issue or aspect of OSL. Anybody can be a part of a working group by just "showing up" i.e. presenting yourself to the group, listening to what is being said, and offering input. You may be involved in as many working groups as you care to keep up with.
Working groups are not new SL groups. They won't be posting their own groups notices. Though they can use the OSL sl group to make Notices for meetups and solicit for ideas. I'm looking into setting up online forums the working groups can use for asynchonous discussions.
The Direct Action working group's focus is to work on the overall Occupy SL campaign and specific protest actions or other kinds of direct action. Contact any1 Gynoid to get involved with that group.
The Media working group is tasked with developing a media policy and discussing how we should talk and interact with the media in sl. Primarily, this was in regard to non-OSL bloggers. There were concerns about how OSL might get represented if we weren't careful. Contact Flashing Merlin to get involved with that group
The Facilitation working group is to review and refine how we do meetings and how we communicate to work together in OSL. This group would talk with other working groups and develope the agenda for the next GA. Contact Merriam Galaxy to get involved with that group.
*these working group contacts are not meant to be leaders, but are just points of contact for now to get ppl connected.
There is still room for other working groups around the meat-and-potatos of what OSL can/should be doing: specfic issues (unemployment, banking reform, electorial reform, foreclosures, student debt, public welfare and cuts to services, war, poverty, etc), how to do education in sl on these issues, teaching ppl in sl about what OWS is about, how to get involved in rl, activism in general, direct democracy and other models of political organization ...and whatever else ppl want to focus on. People are encouraged to start working groups on their own and..Get Involved!
At the 4th GA meeting we also had announcements from ppl. Miso Susanova told us about OccupyLEA (Linden Endowment for the Arts) and how they are protesting Linden Lab policies that are hurting the artist community in sl. She said that A LOT of artists got onboard with that and also joined OSL. OccupyLEA is losing its space at the LEA sandbox but has been offered and encouraged to setup on Caerleon Arts Collective sims, a big name in SL. Caerleon is about to lose their sims because they can't meet the new tier (rent) schedule that LL has established.
From the letter Miso received from Caerleon Arts Collective:
OCCUPY SL! Hi everyone. As you know, after building SL from the unpaid collective labor of thousands of artists and educators, LL is unceremoniously evicting us by doubling our tier. In the handful of months we have left, we invite you to OCCUPY SL by establishing a tent city of artists and others on the three Caerleon sims.
We want artworks, meetings, discussions, a General Assembly and, in general, joyous mayhem. Press are invited.
Having the arts community onboard with us in OSL is HUGE and great resource. Many artists are already coming to us wanting to do projects.
Flashing Merlin contacted Rodrick Linden this last week asking him to donate space for a virtual Zucotti Park. Rodvik has yet to receive a response. Flashing also contacted Hamlet Au, of New World Notes Blog. Hamlet Au wants to write about OSL, but there was hesitation voiced from members at the meeting on whether Hamlet would present us well in his blog. This in part lead to the formation of the Media working group.
Wara Ysabel from Bolivia shared this about what is happening in her country:
[2011-10-26 19:39:36] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): thanks .. Well, I am from Bolivia, last 9 weeks we have supporting an indigenous machs from low lands to La Paz, 600 Km long.
[2011-10-26 19:40:09] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): the reason for that, was the president, pretended to build a higwayt trhoug the National Park and Indigenous terrytry (TIPNIS)
[2011-10-26 19:40:28] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): well, what happend from the march start (1200 person aprox)
[2011-10-26 19:40:45] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): we was warking very hard in many aspects
[2011-10-26 19:41:15] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): 1) Sharing, educating and publishing news (when media stop informing, so walls start talking)
[2011-10-26 19:41:42] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): 2) Humanitty support to the marchers And we have aprooblem ehere
[2011-10-26 19:42:00] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): at day 35, police and ppl is close to Evo Morales (coca growers)
[2011-10-26 19:42:28] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): bloked the march, and close the ways to give them even water
[2011-10-26 19:42:42] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): note the march include 102 childs, womens, and olds
[2011-10-26 19:43:11] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): on september 25, police violente breake the march, it was very very sad
[2011-10-26 19:43:15] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): i will share with you some videos later
[2011-10-26 19:43:42] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): but that event, makes all the country join. Several ocuppys was made in cityes
[2011-10-26 19:44:12] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): and the ppol start supporting the march with everything. from water to clowns to make childs be better
[2011-10-26 19:44:23] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): ok, after 66 days and 600km
[2011-10-26 19:44:32] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): march reach La PAz
[2011-10-26 19:44:45] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): and finally, the goverment off the 480USD millons porject
[2011-10-26 19:44:59] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): so, for now, we won, and most important, we learned
[2011-10-26 19:45:30] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): the riught way to the union, is the difference betwean every one
[2011-10-26 19:45:44] Wara Ysabel (vampi.zapatero): thanks, and congrast for ocuppySL
So, very cool... :)
Sunday, 23 October 2011
Occupy SL is really taking off. We're running our meetings on the same direct democracy, consensus driven method that OWS and other rl occupation groups are using. One member has done training in rl and prepared a teach-in in sl presenting how the rl ows general assemblies work. He's giving his presentation every Sunday at 6:30am from now on. This is a really valuable contribution to sl and it's great that Occupy SL is able to host it.
We're having our 4th GA meeting this week on Wednesday at 6:30pm slt. Meetings are going great. People have many ideas, a lot of energy, and want to contribute. I've talked to several artists this weekend and our very own, Trill Zapatero is wanting to pull more artists in to do a lot of art supporting Occupy SL. People have ideas for doing sculpture and machinima and I don't know what else. Along with this we are working on having an entertainment event every weekend in order to draw more people in and to bolster any demos, art, or other events happening that weekend. And of course, just to have fun ourselves. We had the Virtual Live Band performing last weekend and we're having a corporate zombie and blood-sucking capitalist vampire Halloween party this coming weekend.
We did a demonstration on a sim this weekend. It was the SL Stock Exchange. It was really just a good iconic image to demo at. The owner didn't see it that way though and ejected and banded us from the sim in the first 10 minutes! It was fast, but fun, and just what we expected. We then followed Miso Susanova over to the LEA Self-Curated Gallery sandbox where she is setting up an ows occupation of tents and media booth modeled after rl occupations. Here we all laughed and talked about what had just happened at the stock exchange place and about what to do next. Miso blogged more about it here: http://gomiso.blogspot.com/2011/10/occupysl-occupylea.html
More ppl are blogging about us and we had a sl talk show host stop by looking for a story for a show. I'm hoping at our Wednesday meeting we can focus on how to get the word out more deliberately and broadly about us...in sl and rl.
I can feel a synergy building in the group......
The demonstration at CapEx went great today. Maybe a few more minutes to take more pictures would have been nice, but that's okay. The sim owner came (or was already there) when we arrived. We were very nice to him and tried hard to explain what we were about, but I'm afraid he took our presence there very personally and was upset from the very start. He kicked us all off within 10 minutes. :-)
As planned we all followed Miso over to the LEA Self-Curated Gallery (http://slurl.com/secondlife/LEA5/86/14/23) where she is setting up an OccupyLEA tent camp and info board. This is something I'm hoping we can duplicate and setup up at sandboxes and anywhere we can rezz it all over SL. :)
At OccupyLEA we all laughed and talked about what had just happened at CapEx. How do we make the message clearer and spread it farther next time. What more fun can we plan for SL? Things look exciting ahead.
Thursday, 20 October 2011
from Merriam Galaxy
Can we do one a demonstration/occupatioin this weekend? ppl have been talking about where and how to do it. Let's get together and make definite plans. And after that, let's talk about whatever else comes up. Let's meet at 7PM slt http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/221/64/94 If you can't come to a meeting, can you make your ideas and feelings known? either by dropping a notecard to the group or posting on our facebook page
Sunday, 16 October 2011
If some like to (co-)moderate please give him a sign.
Posted by Agnes S. at 18:14
Thursday, 13 October 2011
The Occupy SL in Solidarity movement is the subject of a post in New World Notes:
This is a terrific opportunity to get the word out to a more general audience! Drop by and add your comments in support of anti-corporate activism in Second Life!
Saturday, 8 October 2011
Things are moving along...fast!
We had a great evening Friday night. Many ppl came and hung out and talked...and argued (thanks Lev for keeping the convo going with your simpleminded opinions :)
We had a good talk in IM chat, and many ppl are coming forth volunteering time and skills and making things happen. Thanks Calliope, mandy, Dax, Kel, any1, Tansy, caitlyn, and Trill...
Dax created a Facebook page for us. Check it out!
Friday, 7 October 2011
It has been nearly three years since I first became involved with the SLLU and, soon after, the SLLUFN. At the time, I was still relatively new to Second Life, enjoying it for its social aspects, and still somewhat lost and amazed by the sheer novelty and magic of it all. It was a revelation to me that something that I probably still largely thought of as a “game” and as escapism might also serve as a platform for social justice, and political and social change. And indeed, as I became more intimately involved, the SLLU and SLLUFN came to seem much more even than that: they were my introductions to an extended community of the some of the brightest, most caring, and most passionately committed people it has ever been my privilege and pleasure to know.
Over time, my SL activist horizons expanded, with increasing involvement in Amnesty International-E, Four Bridges, and Stop Violence against Women; the latter in particular, founded by the astonishing Paty Amiot, supplemented my increasingly personal engagement with activism in-world and without. Always, however, the SLLU and SLLUFN felt most like “home.” It was here that my SLeducation in social justice, feminism, and activism received its greatest impetus. I don’t know that I’ve experienced, even in RL, an environment that was more intellectually stimulating, supportive, and positive. I don’t know where I’ve ever met such a group of caring and dynamic individuals. And I don’t know where I’ve ever learned so much as I have just talking and interacting with you all.
What have I learned from the SLLU and SLLUFN?
Well, I’ve learned that hope and a positive attitude towards change can make even the most indomitable challenges seem conquerable. I know this because I have watched you overcome such challenges.
I’ve learned that, as powerful a motivator as anger and outrage can be, the most powerful weapon in the arsenal of social change is love. I know this because I’ve experienced first-hand the compassion and love that motivate you all.
I’ve learned that one needn’t feel solitary in a world that sometimes seems overwhelmed by hate and injustice, and that there are others who do not merely care, but who are willing to step forward and make a difference. I know this because I was welcomed by you all from my first day in the SLLU.
I’ve learned that consensus is possible, and that no disagreements are ever so deeply rooted that civil discussion and mutual respect cannot bring about a resolution that acknowledges the views, aspirations, and concerns of all involved. I know this because the SLLU is “Left UNITY,” a place where all shades and degrees of progressive thought are welcomed and respected.
I’ve learned that one needn’t be a woman to care about what happens to women, gay to be appalled by homophobia, or an immigrant to be outraged at the injustices meted out to immigrants. One can step outside of oneself, and bring a passionate intensity to bear upon the injustices heaped upon others who are different than ourselves. And I know this because, more even than ideology, what motivates you all is empathy, compassion, and caring.
And most of all, I’ve learned from you all that Hope is not merely a glittering promise somewhere just out of reach, but rather a destination worth the journey.
I have come to understand over the last several months that my own time in Second Life is coming to an end. Commitments in that semi-mythical place, “real life,” have been increasingly taking their toll, and it has become more and more difficult to put the kind of commitment into my work with the SLLU and SLLUFN that I once did. I have felt, frankly, both guilty and depressed about this, but I have also come to realize that I can take what I have learned here, and apply it in new and, I think, exciting ways elsewhere. The SLLU and SLLUFN have been for me a kind a training ground, a university, and a caring family: you have equipped me to move on.
And for that, I owe you all more than I can say.
With much love,
Posted by Scylla Rhiadra at 21:03
Here is a quick update before I head off to work today.....
We are having a General Assembly meeting this Sunday at 7PM. I've created a group called Occupy SL. We want to have as many ppl as we can come together and talk about what we can do in sl. Here is the group notice we have been sending out:
Subject: Occupy SL, general assembly this Sunday
Now is the time for the 99% percent to have their voices heard
We are opening a General Assembly following the model used in NYC and elsewhere. This will be an open forum and discussion with decisions by consensus. We want to plan Actions and Strategies for bringing awareness and participation around these issues in SL.
Please make every effort to participate by coming this Sunday at 7AM slt.
The group, Occupy SL, has been created, please join.
.....We've been talking to lots of ppl and I'm expecting a big turnout :)
Also, I'm working on putting on a music event. The Virtual Live Band (VLB) has just agreed to come perform on Oct.15th. :))
More to come...........
Monday, 3 October 2011
Banks are burning at SLLU. Come on over! http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/213/70/95
Saturday, 1 October 2011
Hey! We're excited about the Occupy Wall Street protests and all the solidarity events starting up. (follow the occupations on twitter with the tag #OccupyWallStreet)
We've set up a space around the SLLU Stage for ppl to gather and talk about it...info, posters, links, and live video feed (if it will work), and maybe we'll have some music (wanna come perform or dj?). Let's talk about why the poor and working have to pay for a crisis created by the rich, let's talk about how to fight back, let's talk about what comes after. And...what can we do in sl?
Saturday, 3 September 2011
Saturday, 27 August 2011
NOW thru Sunday 5pm SLT... Charity Art and Live Music Show for the Feed a Smile CHARITY... Kenyan Kids need your help... L100 to feed them a meal... C'mon Round and Help the World!!! Contact: Brique Topaz in world for details! Click HERE for a TP
Tuesday, 23 August 2011
On Sunday 22 August 2011, Owen Jones, the author of "Chavs; the demonization of the working class," visited the student occupied Hetherington Post Grad Club in Glasgow. This video is an hour of a much longer conversation that was led by Jones.
Thursday, 11 August 2011
I reviewed Thee Factions previous album At Ebbw Vale, HERE and will review their new album Up the Workers OR: Capitalism is good for corporations; that's why you've been told socialism is bad all your life, in the coming days.
In the meantime, if you would like a free copy - I have one to give away! To claim it, send me one sentence on how you are fighting capitalism, to email@example.com. The winner will judged by me to be the person who has a suggestion that we can all take up and use. Ends 18 August.
Wednesday, 3 August 2011
... to help run (and build) Sl's ONLY hub for lefties?
SL Left Unity NEEDS YOUR SKILLS to continue into 2012.
SLLU has been in SL since 2006.
Contact Plot Tracer (in world or via email - firstname.lastname@example.org ) for details on how you can help - or turn up at the Red Star Bar 2am PDT this Friday!!
Saturday, 16 July 2011
Olza Koenkamp, an SL activist, sent some questions to me. This is the first few – Olza has said there may be more at a later date. I thought I would publish these answers for other members to read and perhaps help open discussions and debate with the wider membership/ anti-capitalist left across SL.
1. Why did you help form this group (SLLU) on SL?
This group was formed back in 2006 when Second Life was rarely out of the press.
In RL, I am a member of a Left Unity group – the Scottish Socialist Party, which is generally recognised as one of the most successful projects in Left Unity in the world; using a general statement of aims and principles for the left to unite behind. It was thought that SL might be a platform to promote such a way to unite the left using SL, across the world.
Ever since, SL has stagnated and not been used quite in the ways that were predicted back in 2006 (or at least, as widely as first anticipated). SLLU recruitment, although still rising in ACTIVE members, has slowed because of many of the political people who were initially attracted to SL leaving during the period between 2007 and now (the reasons for the departure of these people are many-fold, and should be a topic of study of those who study VR and its platforms – I have my theories, but these can be explored in a further article in the future).
This recruitment data is shown in the fact that every year, we “cull” our membership by deleting avatars from the group who have not logged in to SL for 2 years or more. At one time we had around active 700 members; now we have over 400 (across 6 groups – the main one being SL Left Unity (the others being SL Left Unity Artivist Network; SL Left Unity Feminist Network; SL Left Unity LGBT Network, SL Left Unity Songs for John Doe and SL Left Unity Unity Hub). Although there is cross membership – there are some people who join only one of these groups. Analysis of membership of these groups show our active membership to be around the 450 mark.
Therefore, SLLU’s objectives have moved *slightly* from recruitment and forwarding a proposition of left unity to the new SL and SL public in general, to now concentrating on ways and space for those, like academics and artists using SL, to forward an education programme that brings anti-capitalism back to the mainstream as it once was until the late 1990’s.
Although this is a slight objective emphasis change, it does not replace our original aim of connecting with ordinary users; it does, however recognise, that our places of learning and creativity (eg Universities) HAVE moved further away from the discussions around envisaged alternative systems of social organisation. This is in stark comparison to academia and “artivism” of the mid 1800’s through to the late 20th century, where these subjects would have been the common topics of discussions at all levels.
Why not organise on a different virtual world or in a different platform, for example some place only for chatting?
There are many “Left Unity” discussion forums and groups on net 1.0 and some net 2.0 applications, eg blogs; facebook and yahoo groups. My own internet early 2000’s experience was on yahoo groups and I have taken some of the successful aspects of that experience to inform how SL Left Unity has been promoted; for example, trying to encourage as much cross cooperation and OWNERSHIP in the central hub of SLLU for as many people and groups as possible across the anti-capitalist left spectrum.
SLLU *could* branch out to opensim or "Inworldz" – and perhaps a few of us need to engage there (I have an avatar in both) – and I, as well as other people involved in the running of SLLU are open to that.
Other platforms such as Twitter, have their own idiosyncracities that do not allow a wider participation and although SLLU does have a twitter account, it is used only to retweet other members contributions to twitter or promote SLLU events (though the use of the twitter account has been intermittent).
2. Has SLLU made some real influence? Have You made some impression on some RL institution or any other RL consequences?
Yes we have. We have helped (and indeed catapulted the issue into the mainstream media) with chasing the French Front National from recruiting in Second Life and we also did the same for a RL/SL IBM strike in Italy which, because avatars were able to infiltrate a meeting of RL CEO’s, led to the resignation of IBM Italy’s CEO and the strikers winning the working conditions they were fighting for.
We have also helped with university studies on the use of SL in left/cooperative education etc.
However, I feel the real influence we have had is with individuals – with activists sharing experiences in RL that have encouraged others to go on to find RL groups they are comfortable with. Our biggest success is helping others engaging and shaping their RL world.
Examples of a huge range of activities that have in some way influenced RL are on our blog that has been running since 2006. We also have an archive on our Flagg sim, maintained by RL student (as part of a RL college course) Jamesdekens Resident.
Recently we ran a 12 hour music and comedy festical in aid of RAWA.org and raised over $500USD.
3. What are the main aims? I am not asking about aims of Left organisations in general, but especially SLLU.
(Our charter and Aims and Principles are here - http://slleftunity.blogspot.com/2011/02/sllu-charter-and-aims-and-principles.html )
See answer one. I think to summarise and add to that answer:
To bring together anti-capitalist left activists into a hub where they can cooperate in activities across their particular ideological differences (eg, socialists, anarchists etc uniting in work to propote and raise awareness of the Greek uprisings of 2009/10 or on the Israeli government crimes in Gaza). People and groups can unite on educational projects – and can agree to disagree on various solutions.
Each individual or group can take a view outside SLLU on, for example a one or two state solution in Gaza, but can cooperate on educational “demos” or installation showing the Palestinian peoples plight.
What people have to understand is that SLLU is a place to listen to differences and to work on similarities.
Disagreements are fine, so long as people can accept others have a different view and that the best way to promote your difference, is to do so comradely. It is through thesis and antithesis we reach synthesis – or it is through sharing experiences we both learn and teach.
4. Would you move SLLU from SL to other platform?
SLLU won’t be moving FROM SL – but could have similar groups with aims and principles in other metaverses- which will happen.
Monday, 11 July 2011
Thursday, 7 July 2011
josjoha: Farv, are you here for the lecture ? If so we can start if you want to.
josjoha: Be advised that these chats get published on SLLU and perhaps elsewhere. If you do not want your chat published, please let me know and I can erase you from the log.
josjoha: Farv, I'm fine with only doing it for one person, however let me know if you want it or I assume that you are here for other reasons.
josjoha: hi [.........], howdy
josjoha: Are you here for the chat & lecture [.....] ?
josjoha: Hi Tim
Tim Mersereau: er folks
josjoha: _ _ _ Thank you for coming to this class in 'real economics'. The 'chat-lecture' text is preceded by '_ _ _'. Agreement with what is taught here is not assumed, understanding what is meant is the only objective.
josjoha: _ _ _ Please, open a new notecard, so that you can write your questions into it.
josjoha: _ _ _ I am not your enforcer, if you want to chat through the lecture, go ahead. If you need less chatter, feel free to demand it :).
josjoha: _ _ _ * PART I: how does trade work (this is mostly common knowledge already, watch for '*** PART II ***' if you already know this) *
josjoha: _ _ _ - What is wrong with capitalism ? –
josjoha: _ _ _ One look at the world, and the failure of the ruling system is painfully obvious. understand its failure, we have to go back to the roots of the system: trade, ownership and tyranny.
- Trade, what is it at its most simplest ? - It is giving something for something: I do the dishes, if you fix my bike. I get the children from school, if you go get a new sun screen. You get 5 of my fish I caught, if you give me 2 and a half of those breads you baked.
middle ages has been dreadful. Where did it all go wrong ?
josjoha: _ _ _ Compare the following trades to the ones mentioned:
josjoha: _ _ _ - Not all is well in the world of trade –
Robbiboy Rossini: if he makes a final deal...he should really think at it...or he is lost
josjoha: _ _ _ Can a defining trait be identified that makes a trade proper ? The ruling system has held that it is mostly a problem of consent: if both parties consent to a trade, it must be proper. That is an insufficient understanding of trade.
josjoha: _ _ _ - How does the larger trade system function ? –
Robbiboy Rossini: but he should be end the trade without being kicked in the ass or go into prison...
josjoha: Who has an idea what 'kind' of investors get to dominate ?
josjoha: Company profit = income - costs, and labor wages is 'costs' .... so .....
Robbiboy Rossini: the people of a company itself
josjoha: Corporate investors is right also
James Ready (enhanced): shareholders specifically
josjoha: because they are professionals, the 'know where to invest'
josjoha: yes, and specifically what kind of them ?
josjoha: in terms of ... morality ?
josjoha: Good point Calyps, the professionals, big corps; but what kind ?
josjoha: Well it's fairly simple i thought: the ones who invest where labor is abused.
[........] [........wealthy investors..........]
[........] [.............who use politically weak people.............]
josjoha: The ones that invest in plantations in Guatamala, where ppl work for whip lashes and nothing.
Robbiboy Rossini: with the most knowledge
josjoha: In other words, to put it crudely '''the assholes''' between them. They get to dominate !
josjoha: yeah, the 'professional asshole' basically
josjoha: Money can buy anything, even politicians. Money is greatly powerful. More and more powerful because it builds and builds over the decades... And it is not in good hands, and therefore we are in trouble (at least on this count)... They seek out where people get abused, and put their money there. The ones that are good ? The nice ones ? They invest in good causes, nice labor, union stuff. But they won't get rich off of it !
Robbiboy Rossini: the problem for me is which kind of things do we use for buying things except money?...
Robbiboy Rossini: changing?
josjoha: Hold that thought, I"ve copied your question...
Robbiboy Rossini: metalls silver gold?
josjoha: _ _ _ [The most tyrannical and abusive companies, who also have the greatest market turnover, the most costumers that is.]
josjoha: Good question Robbi
Robbiboy Rossini: metal is money in a way
josjoha: though not exactly what is covered here - metal money can certainly work, especially in a primitive society, but even today
josjoha: yes... continuing...
Robbiboy Rossini: ok
josjoha: _ _ _ *** PART II ***: solutions (now for the more interesting part!) *
josjoha: _ _ _ - Solutions –
josjoha: Robbi, we'll get back to the money question at the end, ok ?
josjoha: got to keep it moving a bit
Robbiboy Rossini: ok
josjoha: _ _ _ The problem at its principle is simple: concentration of power produces concentration of wealth that is not worked for. This then seems it needs an equally obvious remedy: the distribution of that power to all. How ?
josjoha: Remember the baron, he got all the 'land power'
josjoha: The banker has all the money power
The corporate owner has all the management 'bossy' power.
Those that do not want to be farmers can rent it to those who do, causing the market for soil rent to have many givers and many takers, rather then just one or a cartel of feudal lords.
right mind can accept such an affront ?! Are we chattle ?
Farv Hallison: This sounds like the Henry George Single Tax Plan.
josjoha: Farv, ty, copied for later...
josjoha: _ _ _Turn it into a democracy, a free floating group in the markets. For a nation the same is true on a larger more extreme scale.
josjoha: _ _ _ How to defeat the ... banker ?
josjoha: _ _ _This is perhaps the subtlest of issues, because making a loan is a consensual act.
josjoha: just in time to put banking behind us
James Ready (enhanced): sounds like libertarianism
josjoha: _ _ _ However free investment credit rules clearly do not work, not just because the bankers have managed to overtake the printing of the currency, or drive the nation off the cliff with their lending games that the politicians they bought engage in.
josjoha: James, it can be, however you can see a democratized business with its own land as .. a commune, then it is communism, too
josjoha: _ _ _During the industrialization it was more then obvious that banking is a menace on its own through it's financier games. Libertarianism has so far not called for democratization of companies, or distribution of land ... or socialization of investment credit ... or an absolute pepole's democracy.
josjoha: * we are at half time, does anyone want a break ? *
josjoha: battling on ..
josjoha: _ _ _It is an eventually inescapable effect, if at least business tyranny is allowed for them to invest in.
josjoha: _ _ _ - Summary -
josjoha: _ _ _ The ills of the economy come from concentration of power.
josjoha: bad people ! ; ) Hence society ends up dominated by the money power in the hands of bad people. That is where the wars and tyranny really starts, as they attempt to choke the people and bring them under ever greater control.
we need to combat power concentration with its opposite: power distribution !
josjoha: So you allow all kinds of businesses to start, both democracy groups, and single-boss types. Some ppl may need that !
josjoha: _ _ _ * PART III: in closing *
josjoha: _ _ _The economy will be rounded off by acknowledging certain sectors are innimical to competition, such as the infrastructure, the rail ways, the fact that the medical sector is largely not functioning well under an (exclusive) trade system.
josjoha: _ _ _What is wrong with a plan economy ?
_ _ _ What is wrong with a global Government ?
plement these changes, it is not like the enemy will recognize the truth and roll over ?
_ _ _ The 'social democrat' tactic of muddling on 'in the institutions' without much direction ?
josjoha: _ _ _ The system of Democratic Authorities, Ventures, Investments, Demarcations is worked out in a ready to go new Constitution, as a way of showing that such a model can be practical. The idea from this end is to have that Constitution ratified in enough nations to prevent Imperialist war on the Revolutions. This Constitution also has an innovative and extensive new model for the national Democracy. It is all meant to reduce corruption and exploitation. Feel free to make your own even better DAVID Constitutions ! Let me know so I can enjoy your work !!!
josjoha: have a go at it !
josjoha: _ _ _ * Part IV: questions, discusions *
James Ready (enhanced): do you think corporate lobbying should be illegal?
josjoha: turnout is beyond i had hoped for
josjoha: James, okay we're now in the questions section...
Farv Hallison: yes, but how do we stop it since the corporations have freedom of speech.
josjoha: _ _ _ First a round of questions to get the meaning clear, then a round of remarks and disagreements for the ol' political fistfights !
josjoha: _ _ _ Questions about Part I (how does trade work, and how it does not), anyone ?
Farv Hallison: how do you assert political power when the corporations spend a billion of your dollars on propaganda?
josjoha: all that was pretty standard, but added is the uhm ... power question, and investment credit danger, though the marxists already had that, too
josjoha: Farv, in the model I propose, you elect someone with 50 persons, and it won't be easy to 'lobby' something that small
Frederica Lexenstar: I came in late and am reading to catch up, so this may be a stupid question. But...is all soil considered to be equal? Everyone gets the same amount, no matter whether it is fertile, near water, near transportation, etc?
josjoha: In the Constitution is also a law against bribes, and politicians keep logs of 'gifts'
josjoha: Frederica, excellent question: the equality is on perceived economic value
josjoha: That is not easy to do, but it is the best one could do i guess
josjoha: _ _ _ Questions about Part II (solutions: National democracy, democratized companies, socialized investment, land distribution, trade), anyone ?
Robbiboy Rossini: sam amount of money in the basics for a person
James Ready (enhanced): illegal aliens contribute to dragging down American’s wages, do you have any thoughts on that
josjoha: James, in the proposed model the borders would probably be closed
josjoha: to protect the labor market - though it is up to the ppl to decide of course
Frederica Lexenstar: companies that hire desperate people at below minimum wage drag down our wages, not undocumented people
josjoha: James, it seems to be another aspect of capitalist games against the people / labor
James Ready (enhanced): most of those are undocumented people
josjoha: the unions here claim we should have 'equal pay for equal work' so that immigrants do not drag it down - but no chance of that happening
Frederica Lexenstar: are they?
??? MADDI (madison.gyranaut): it isn't illegals dragging down american wages.. its corporations!!
josjoha: chinamen ! :)
josjoha: I have heard that the USA has engaged in great hostility towards middle america in general, and that is driving these ppl north as well
James Ready (enhanced): as far as democratized companies, are you suggested it be mandated by law for companies above a certain size?
??? MADDI (madison.gyranaut): and it isn't as if illegals are paid well enough.. they are enslaved!
josjoha: The american corporations want a cut-throat climate in the economy
josjoha: the illegals are really the worst victims in it all
josjoha: _ _ _ Remarks and disagreements about Part I (how does trade work, and how it does not).
josjoha: _ _ _ Remarks and disagreements about Part II (solutions: National democracy, democratized companies, socialized investment, land distribution, trade), anyone ?
josjoha: _ _ _ Remarks and disagreements about Part III (...), anyone ?
James Ready (enhanced): democratizing of private companies would be law?
josjoha: James, in this model it would be Constitutional law, yes
josjoha: [quote] the problem for me is which kind of things do we use for buying things except money?... [/quote]
Farv Hallison: The opportunity for change comes when the present system is collapsing...here is a description....
James Ready (enhanced): America used to back its money with gold until the federal reserve bank began printing it for us
BrotherJim Jonesford: lots of peopel today
josjoha: In the model i am proposing for consideration, we would use a government fiat paper/electronic currency; but there is a limit to personal wealth at 30 times average of the nation.
Farv Hallison: http://fora.tv/2009/02/13/Dmitry_Orlov_Social_Collapse_Best_Practice
josjoha: Brother, yeah
BrotherJim Jonesford: personally I perfer the Share Our Wealth Society method
josjoha: Gold, silver, even 'tally sticks' can also be used for money
BrotherJim Jonesford: why should anyone be rich?
josjoha: indeed brother, don't ask me
BrotherJim Jonesford: if all resources were reallocated we could all live comfortable live styles
josjoha: the question of money is very interesting and important, but moving on a bit ...
josjoha: Brother, i think so, yes
josjoha: with all the technology we have ....
BrotherJim Jonesford: there are actual examples of this
josjoha: [quote]Farv Hallison: This sounds like the Henry George Single Tax Plan.[/quote]
josjoha: Brother, feel free to share
BrotherJim Jonesford: the Hutterites are a prime example of socialism in a pratical sense
josjoha: aha, Farv, what that : )
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all work together
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all share
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all do business together
BrotherJim Jonesford: they all profit
BrotherJim Jonesford: they live quite well
josjoha: Anyone having writtin downa anything, or whatever, put the boxing gloves on and let's debate
josjoha: _ _ _ [[ end ]]
James Ready (enhanced): I'm at work so I'd better not haha
josjoha: The chat is published, who wants to be scrubbed please tell me.
BrotherJim Jonesford: I dont mind my words being used
josjoha: okay that's that, thanks everyone for coming, i really really appreciate that !!
BrotherJim Jonesford: I just think to create a socialist system one should look at pratical solutions to achieving it and people who have been doing it for 100's of years
josjoha: Brother, what you wrote makes me think of the native north American Indians
josjoha: Brother, sounds like a good plan, who you have in mind
BrotherJim Jonesford: I do not know what they believe please inform me
josjoha: they have for example the idea that land cannot be sold, and they share that with ancient Israel, who also used a distributive system for land
BrotherJim Jonesford: ah yes
BrotherJim Jonesford: the church in acts also had the same concept
BrotherJim Jonesford: they sold everything
josjoha: they gave the land to each family a part, and you could lend it away until the next 50th year..
BrotherJim Jonesford: and had a collective treasury
BrotherJim Jonesford: perhaps the reason I sound like them so much is my ideas are thoughts are similar to ancient israel
josjoha: yes, and ancient Israel also had prohibition on rent seeking loans, actually that is quite common in history
josjoha: Aristotles was against rent seeking
josjoha: Mozes law, the Torah ('old' testament...)
josjoha: Islam, the jesuscult, all was against that
josjoha: The native indians who run casino's in America, they run them on a tribal base
josjoha: Everyone works, everyone shares in the profits.
josjoha: It is an example of democratized business !
Laslopantomik Yao: we should all open eyes, people are starving and die more then ever and markets are happy to see greece and portugal ruin one day and take benefits in stocks next... its all a chaos... im very pesimistic about whats to come
josjoha: And if one indian had too many blankets, a sort of currency, they would give it away.
josjoha: A maximum on wealth, by choice.
josjoha: Historical precedents ...
Robbiboy Rossini: need to go ...thx for these informative things
Laslopantomik Yao: sorry to get in middle but i really think power got the plan to make earth sink in a 1984 model, we are getting in it
josjoha: so ... feel free to talk and stuff, i'm eyeing the 2nd half of a pizza here ...
Laslopantomik Yao: to start i think all the very poor problem should be solved
Laslopantomik Yao: im very concerned about that
josjoha: the rest ... oh well
Laslopantomik Yao: all the rest is very very intresting and needed
Laslopantomik Yao: i find your speech very good and necessary
josjoha: i have a website on this
Laslopantomik Yao: but really, i find that the ones who rule have a plan for the next 1000 Laslopantomik Yao: yes but they are wining, just see how bad its getting
Laslopantomik Yao: a drastic turnover is needed
josjoha: they are, and i'm trying with my plan to turn that around, take the initiative for the ppl
josjoha: but chat log is a bit... more stuff in between
Laslopantomik Yao: We need a Che-Ghandi-Einstein
Laslopantomik Yao: maybe its you!
josjoha: yeah i guess so
josjoha: but you don't need *me* only the plan, only that
josjoha: it's all written down, and then it needs ... you
josjoha: i thought i'd look like a half fool with nobody showing up, but we had a crowd, and made friends too
Laslopantomik Yao: thats ultracool, i understand that but normal people dont care abouts and dont have time for that
Laslopantomik Yao: i think this kind of thnking should be spread
josjoha: i know ... but if things do not get fixed, things will go wrong
josjoha: i think so too Laslo
josjoha: i do whatever i can, maybe you can do what you can
Laslopantomik Yao: but the system is made make this never grow
[2011/07/06 11:31] Laslopantomik Yao: i mean all is contrary to real justice to the mankind