Discussion on immigration

Sorry on the late posting of this chatlog. From Tuesday 12th April.

Present: Trill Zapatero; Agnes S.; junivers Stockholm; Anon1; Violet ; Templeton Tigerpaw; tutsy Navarathna; Ernest Genesis; Mirabella Seda; Starshine;

[09:06] junivers Stockholm: normally i cant come to these meetings. Its too early for me
[09:06] Agnes S. : idk if you both saw the link i sent out yesterday about the iranian man who died in Amsterdam last week?
[09:06] Agnes S. : ooh, is this a good time for you then?
[09:06] Anon1: i read that
[09:07] Anon1: would that change anything, like policy
[09:07] Agnes S. : http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/netherlands-failed-help-self-immolation-victim

[09:07] junivers Stockholm: this is still a bit too early for me - but its way better that 3am i think it was before
[09:07] Anon1: altho any way, there is huge population of poverty in the world, would be not realistic if all solved by immigration to richer places
[09:07] Agnes S. : good junivers :)
[09:08] Agnes S. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md5LlI1f6tc
[09:08] Anon1: so probably nothing is going to change, would be as usual....or perhaps

[09:08] Anon1: perhaps in the future the immigrants who cant feed themselves would be excluded from entering totally
[09:08] Anon1: so suicide only happens outside neitherland
[09:09] Anon1: in iran, not there in neitherland lol
[09:09] Agnes S. : im not sure immigration is the idea for solving poverty either, but there are so many ppl living in hiding as illegal citizens and immigrants all over europe
[09:09] Anon1: yes

[09:09] Agnes S. : and we have the most rigid immigration policy ever now
[09:09] junivers Stockholm: i dont agree kiki - 1. everyone was expecting a break down of germany when they took on east germany

[09:10] Anon1: if they are excludeed from entering, then they can only suicide in their homelad, not in europe
[09:10] junivers Stockholm: but it did work in the long run
[09:10] Anon1: so no news any more lol
[09:10] Agnes S. : thing is a lot of immigrants waits and waits and waits for years for their application to be treated

[09:10] Agnes S. : hi Violet
[09:10] Anon1: oh
[09:10] Violet: Hi :)
[09:10] Agnes S. : Kiki? This man would have been killed if sent home
[09:11] junivers Stockholm: i dont belive in nations anyway so the word immigrant is not relevant to me

[09:11] Agnes S. : nobody is illegal, thats my view
[09:11] Trill Zapatero: we're all immigrants

[09:11] Anon1: yes loads of ppl are starving the death on daily basis on other parts of the world , huge population....and border control makes sure they dont go to europe or US or etc to make a living , so we cant see them. only if they happen to enter illigally, then the death makes news

[09:11] Anon1: otherwise there wont be any news
[09:12] Anon1: nobody cares
[09:12] Trill Zapatero: somewhere in our background
[09:12] Anon1: starved to death/stoned to deaths....and whatever just not in europe lol

[09:12] Agnes S. : right Kiki
[09:13] Agnes S. : also, in Norway recently The 19 year old iranian refugee Rahim Rostami was, on february 19. forced to return to Iran by norwegian police. There he was, immediately imprisoned in the notorious Evian prison accused of having carried out actions against "national security"

[09:13] junivers Stockholm: well our leaders WANTS immigrants - they one with education, and those people the leaders use to get lower wages for thet people
[09:13] junivers Stockholm: people that need help (immagrants) are not welcome
[09:13] Agnes S. : hah yes

[09:13] junivers Stockholm: solidarity is totally gone
[09:13] Trill Zapatero: but then they spend money on weapons
[09:13] Anon1: yes immigrants who can contribute to the economy are welcomed
[09:14] junivers Stockholm: right trill
[09:14] Anon1: immigrats who have to get help instead of helping are otherwise
[09:14] Trill Zapatero: and often they agress on the very countries that the immigrants come from

[09:14] Trill Zapatero: of course to liberate them
[09:15] junivers Stockholm: well the bad thing kiki is that people are loosing jobs because of immigrants that take jobs for lower wages(iblame politicians NOT the immigrants)=
[09:15] Trill Zapatero: but often the jobs are ones that nobody wants anyway
[09:16] junivers Stockholm: not really trill - we "import a lot of doctors for instance
[09:16] Anon1: then immigrants can get it
[09:16] Agnes S. : yes and because immigrants often are willing to take whatever job they can, the exploitation of them continues

[09:16] Anon1: labour market test.....immigrants can only take jobs if the job is advertised in specified media for several weeks, and no EU citizens apply for it
[09:16] Anon1: that is for work visa procedure in most countries in europe
[09:17] Anon1: also there are defined fields and requirement on salary in addition to that labour market test
[09:17] Agnes S. : hi Templeton

[09:17] Trill Zapatero: well, in Canada, we hire immigrant doctors because many of our doctors go to the states when they graduate
[09:17] Violet: Hi Temp
[09:17] Anon1: yes, high educated ppl, like researchers too, in difficult fields that no local person wants to take
[09:18] junivers Stockholm: i dont know the rules kiki, but i´ve had a lot of problems with my lungs and my doctors (different every time) has to 30-40% been "immigrants"
[09:18] Anon1: i see

[09:19] Anon1: any way i dont think poverty of the world can be solved by immigration
[09:19] junivers Stockholm: so "immigrants" are good when politician needs them (mostly to press down wages, and in good times we want to thou them out
[09:19] Anon1: global development issue is very compex problem to deal with
[09:19] Agnes S. : it sure is
[09:19] Anon1: if immmigrants can work in fields that nobody in europe wants to work in, and they contibute a lot to the economy
[09:20] Anon1: then yes
[09:20] junivers Stockholm: it was complex to send spaceship to the moon, but we did it. It would be MUCH more easy to erase starvation, but we dont
[09:20] junivers Stockholm: why?
[09:20] Agnes S. : good question junivers
[09:20] Trill Zapatero: yeah why?

[09:20] Anon1: if we focus on the good of the world population, then it is global development issue

[09:21] Anon1: if we focus on europe alone, then it is about border control, what kind of ppl to import, what kind to be excluded so they only suicide in home land, not i here
[09:21] Agnes S. : so theyll get killed in their homeland as well
[09:22] Anon1: right
[09:22] Agnes S. : recently, theres a lot happening in Lampedusa, with libyan refugees
[09:22] Anon1: such is life
[09:22] junivers Stockholm: if we do things in solidarity EVRYONE can get a better life
[09:22] junivers Stockholm: haha kiki - life is what me make of it
[09:23] Anon1: so many ppl are persecuted like, criminals of consicience, e.g. so many of them , in their home land, as long as they dont make their way here yet
[09:24] Anon1: so....what can be done....any policy to be changed?
[09:24] Agnes S. : all policy to be changed i think
[09:24] Anon1: i completely understand the border control policy tho....it has to be like that, its natural

[09:24] junivers Stockholm: in my view its a change of our culture - update humans to homo sapiens V2 - media is one of the important keys
[09:25] Templeton Tigerpaw: Nonsense, countries are an atavism
[09:25] Anon1: btw i hold a chinese passport mmyself , residing in europe atm.....the labour maket test requirement for work visa, and since work visa holders have loads of restrains in benefits, staying period etc.......but i completely understand the policies....they have to do this
[09:26] Templeton Tigerpaw: Borders are a relic from the time when people were owned by people.
[09:26] Violet: I don't know what can be changed. A lot of it is inappropriate tribal thinking; confusing your nation with your tribe, and viewing the world in terms of insiders and outsiders.
[09:26] junivers Stockholm: right temp

[09:26] Agnes S. : yes Violet

[09:27] junivers Stockholm: we´ve been pushed to compete in every way
[09:27] Trill Zapatero: it's absurd for humans to think they can own a piece of the planet
[09:27] junivers Stockholm: agree trill
[09:27] Templeton Tigerpaw: It's time to completely abolish all borders. What difference is there between going from one city in a country to another to going from one country to another? The only thing that makes a difference is the power structure.
[09:27] Agnes S. : but they do and thats our biggest problem today i think
[09:28] Anon1: aww i wish you are my visa officers, and give me a greencard here straight away now ;p seriously

[09:28] Anon1: jk

[09:28] Violet: hehe Kiki
[09:28] junivers Stockholm: temp... its also about resources of course
[09:28] Templeton Tigerpaw: Why a green card? Why any card?
[09:28] junivers Stockholm: give all land back to nature ! :)
[09:28] Templeton Tigerpaw: Most resources are owned transnationally, anyway
[09:29] junivers Stockholm: right temp - in that respect its ok to give a damn about borders (nation borders)

[09:29] Violet: I'm with Temp, in spirit. In practice, Iunno. I'd like to see borders done away with, but I'm not sure how to get there from here.
[09:30] Trill Zapatero: brb

[09:30] junivers Stockholm: Atar.. we just have to start - every learning starts from zero. From there we can build, learn and make things better
[09:31] Violet: No worries :)
[09:31] junivers Stockholm: but as long as we dont change it wont happen
[09:31] Agnes S. : is in human nature to seek some form of control and we take that natural instinct out on our countries, scared of chaos and loosing control
[09:31] Agnes S. : welcome Tutsy
[09:31] Agnes S. : claiming land to be ours
[09:31] Agnes S. : and nobody else
[09:32] tutsy Navarathna: thanks agnes :)

[09:32] junivers Stockholm: i do belive more in human behaviour - its in our culture more than we belive
[09:32] Agnes S. : yes junivers :)
[09:32] junivers Stockholm: we are copying eachother and bad leaders make bad copies
[09:33] Ernest Genesis: hello
[09:33] Violet: Hi Ernest

[09:33] Agnes S. : but when did the law come above humans? why are authorities too busy reading and following laws and the law is more important than humans now
[09:33] junivers Stockholm: hi ernest
[09:33] Agnes S. : hi ernest
[09:34] Anon1: i hope more stories like egypt and lybia repeat in other places as well, one day when all parts of the poor countries with lack of human rights get developted to prosperity, by then it would be easier not to set borders . but with the gap of wealth, it can be hard

[09:34] junivers Stockholm: fear agnes?
[09:34] Anon1: or which shall be done first....i dunno
[09:34] junivers Stockholm: fear of change that will diminish their power?
[09:34] Agnes S. : i guess, and fear of chaos
[09:34] Agnes S. : i guess

[09:35] junivers Stockholm: i do think one part is stupidity too ;)
[09:35] tutsy Navarathna: i think chaos is still there
[09:35] tutsy Navarathna: already

[09:35] Trill Zapatero: hope it's not contagious
[09:35] Violet: Yes, Kiki....but is it an advantage for some, for others to be disadvantaged? How do we ensure global human rights and decent standards of living?
[09:35] Agnes S. : politicians today are like "hey,we`re so important and busy controlling the law, we cant take human considerations"
[09:36] junivers Stockholm: a primeminister dont need ANY education - a hairdresser has more education
[09:36] junivers Stockholm: maybe we should have higher demands on those leaders
[09:37] Violet: Hi Mirabella
[09:37] Agnes S. : maybe we should let the people lead?
[09:37] Agnes S. : and deside
[09:37] Mirabella Seda: hey hello
[09:37] Agnes S. : hi Mirabella
[09:37] junivers Stockholm: you mean have democracy?
[09:37] junivers Stockholm: :)

[09:37] junivers Stockholm: hi mira
[09:37] Mirabella Seda: hello

[09:37] Anon1: dunno atar, after getting my certificate of courses in global development issues(went to lectures for fun, in the end was surprised they offer certificates...which was the story), i get more confused
[09:38] Agnes Sharple: i mean control from the bottom up, not top down, like today:)
[09:39] junivers Stockholm: yepp - and im NOT a nationalist - im ashamed that sweden is tricking rest of EU into a very right wing ploitic
[09:40] Agnes S. : i am not a nationalist either
[09:41] Anon1: because if paternalism is wrong,it means you cant use force to change the political institutions/cultures of poor countries.....but what if they are immune to softer means , and the poverty roots in the hard institutions
[09:42] junivers Stockholm: we are creating reality and culture is a foundation - so we have to redesign it

[09:42] junivers Stockholm: but its up to US to understand it all
[09:42] Agnes S. : totally

[09:42] Anon1: then what happens is the developed countries set borders for fear or those immigrants, and in foreign policies only focus on self interest
[09:42] junivers Stockholm: us=we
[09:42] Anon1: and the poor countries are still in vicious dead loop
[09:42] Anon1: nothing is going to be changed
[09:43] junivers Stockholm: not US=america lol
[09:43] Violet: That's something I wonder about, too, Kiki--how do we communicate with places that violate human rights without destroying the good in their culture?
[09:44] junivers Stockholm: leaders and their media is an impoirtant key
[09:44] junivers Stockholm (from english): ledere og deres medier er en impoirtant nøkkelen
[09:44] junivers Stockholm: black people in us were slaves

[09:44] Anon1: its like asking the leader to give up power?
[09:44] junivers Stockholm: then cam martin luther king and changed it
[09:44] Anon1: and propagnda of loving the leader sustitude with human rights?
[09:44] Anon1: not sure ifthey would be willing, unless wars are wages
[09:44] Anon1: waged

[09:44] junivers Stockholm: martin luther king had more power than most of our leaders have today
[09:44] Violet: Yes, good example, Kiki
[09:47] Anon1: plus the ppl in powerin poorer countries mostly have gotten EU/US/canadian citienship, their family,property aborad......when things go bad in politics, when ppl revolt, they can leave quickly
[09:47] junivers Stockholm: ok i admit that im simplifying BUT if i dont understand, i dont care, i dont have time, then i dont take responsibility. I have dreams of a good world for all. Im prepared to take the steps if i/we get the chance. Thats a beginning
[09:48] Anon1: me too junivers

[09:48] junivers Stockholm: we need to prepare ourself as individuals, prepared with dream and try to follow that dream - and SPREAD it
[09:48] Templeton Tigerpaw: Well, the biggest step towards world freedom would be if China changed its government. I think we should all work on throwing the repressive fascists out in China.

[09:49] Anon1: i agree with birric
[09:49] junivers Stockholm: stop using money as much as possible would be good ;)
[09:50] junivers Stockholm: money makes the world go round they say (but its actually hands, brains and material we need ONLY)
[09:51] Agnes Sharple: but what about all those illegal immigrants who live in hiding and have no land, they can not go home and they will not permit any place, because most countries have a strict immigration policy
[09:52] Anon1: short term policy would be policies targeting at those ones
[09:52] Agnes Sharple: it becomes a bigger and bigger problem

[09:52] junivers Stockholm: agnes.. things like that make me feel ashamed
[09:52] Anon1: long term resolution is aobut global development issues
[09:52] Agnes S. : me too
[09:52] junivers Stockholm: its about solidarity
[09:53] Anon1: global dev. issue can go as far as very serious things,like politica reform

[09:53] Anon1: turmoils
[09:53] Anon1: or maybe softer means
[09:53] Anon1: dunno
[09:54] Anon1: most countries have foreign policies focused onn self interset only tho

[09:54] junivers Stockholm: in simple words and technical terms: we´re a fucked up spieces living obn a small planet that we fucked up
[09:54] Anon1: as long as money is made
[09:54] Anon1: yup

[09:54] Agnes Sharple: and so we have all the scare tactics about Muslims, which in turn creates xenophobia and make integrating hard, instead of seeing what these resources can actually add to the country
[09:54] junivers Stockholm: right
[09:55] Violet: That's true, Kiki, and something worth addressing. Asylum laws are especially crazy in some countries.

[09:55] Anon1: i dont think long term prosperity can be achieved by just donation and international aid...long term prosperity has to do with the institutuions, structures, cultures of that place

[09:55] Anon1: economic, political system
[09:56] Anon1: dunno
[09:56] junivers Stockholm: this is a good explanation with solutions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w&feature=player_embedded
[09:56] Agnes Sharple: Jeez, are why politicians and leaders so stupid
[09:56] junivers Stockholm: zeitgeist moving forward is the movies name
[09:56] junivers Stockholm: 2 hours 41 minutes

[09:56] Agnes S. : ah ive seen that, ty junivers
[09:57] Anon1: tho i am unsure if i really buy their stuffs
[09:57] Anon1: i saw about zeitgeist movement too ty

[09:57] Agnes S. : you should all take the time to see it :)
[09:58] Anon1: reminds me that
[09:58] junivers Stockholm: thats up to you kiki - i think its a path we NEED to start - then we need to correct it during the journey
[09:58] Trill Zapatero: watching the trailer
[09:58] Anon1: N Korean ppl can't go to S korean due to the danger zone , but some managed to go to china illegally...and chinese gov whenever they discover one, always send them back to N korea

[09:58] junivers Stockholm: i think you will like it trill
[09:59] Anon1: its impossible for them to flee to S korea. there is a very dangerious zone in the border, anybody going to there would die
[09:59] Anon1: and they are not allowed to go outside
[09:59] Agnes S. : hi Starshine!
[09:59] Starshine: hi Agnes

[09:59] Starshine: and hi everyone
[10:00] junivers Stockholm: kiki... we live in a now (a precense) but we need tolook forward, create dreams that include all - we WILL succeed to make a great world on this beautiful planet
[10:00] junivers Stockholm: hi star
[10:00] Violet: Hi Starshine
[10:00] Anon1: i really would wish so
[10:00] Starshine:

[10:01] Anon1: altho it seems global dev. issues is too large a thing for me, an individual starving and stupid young person lol
[10:01] Anon1: but i would hope so ;p
[10:01] Violet: We all start somewhere :)
[10:01] junivers Stockholm: if it takes many generations - so what - its better that we start and people that die before we reach a much beter state will know that its coming further down the road - thats a good way to die :)
[10:02] Agnes S. : agree junivers

[10:02] Agnes S. : thats the problem today, ppl dont think long enough forward
[10:03] junivers Stockholm: kiki - if you believe, learn and take a stand... then you did a imortant part. When new leaders show up you know who to follow, vote for etc
[10:03] Agnes S. : we`re pretty fucked, but lets start make the world a better place for coming generations
[10:03] junivers Stockholm: i think thats the most important thing i did

[10:03] Anon1nods
[10:03] junivers Stockholm: and im not ready of course
[10:04] Violet: Well, we just do what we can to help others and reduce harm wherever we're able
[10:05] junivers Stockholm: its easy to say/bilieve.. people are evil, greedy etc and its in our nature. We did change things during our journey herte - question is... where do we wanna go (and why)

[10:05] junivers Stockholm: i like that atar
[10:06] junivers Stockholm: yepp agnes - lets start !
[10:06] Agnes S. : yes-lets start!:))

[10:06] Starshine: sounds like you people really want to make this wold a better place, but it is only talk, what are you actulally planning to do?
[10:07] Starshine: any briliant ideas to make changes?
[10:07] Agnes S. : like Violet said, we do what we can to help others
[10:07] Starshine: like what?
[10:07] Anon1: i will teach more ppl in china to hack great firewall to read uncensored materials

[10:07] junivers Stockholm: spreading ideas, critical thinking, encourage to take stand - we can do that in our everyday life
[10:07] Starshine: ah oke

[10:08] junivers Stockholm: when we are many enough we can do things more powerful
[10:08] Violet: I'm planning to bring food to people who lost their homes in a local fire either today or tomorrow; little, direct things matter more to me than changing a whole culture overnight.

[10:08] junivers Stockholm: i mentioned Martin Luther King before - he did that and succeeded in the and - and it was all non violence
[10:09] Agnes S. : "I have a dream"
[10:09] junivers Stockholm: exactly agnes
[10:09] Starshine: well he was smurdred and still the situation is far from perfect for blacks in the US

[10:09] Anon1: altho
[10:09] Anon1: wont discard the efforts of donation and aid
[10:09] junivers Stockholm: right star - so we need to continue
[10:09] Starshine: awareness is very important
[10:10] junivers Stockholm: true kiki
[10:10] Anon1: altho i dont think poverty can be solved in root by asking richer ppl for money only

[10:10] Violet: I don't either, Kiki
[10:10] Agnes S. : agree Kiki
[10:10] junivers Stockholm: atar... it IS a donation you make
[10:10] junivers Stockholm: tho its not money
[10:10] Starshine: but it is a fact that rich country's like do take most recources and maintain poverty in poor countries
[10:10] Agnes Sharple: we need to provide help for self-help
[10:11] Anon1: but donation is good thing.....i would donate too when charity staff ask me too

[10:11] Anon1: wont discard that efforts
[10:11] junivers Stockholm: right kiki
[10:11] junivers Stockholm: @star... yes and we need to be aware of that
[10:11] Violet: I think, right now, there's not much to be done except be ready for the system to fail, because it's probably going to, more and more. If people have healthier alternatives, they have more incentive to make positive changes, and if the system recovers....it's like an immune response.

[10:11] Trill Zapatero: this zeitgeist video is amazing
[10:11] Starshine: actually I'm pretty sure we all live in rich countries, being on sl, whilst most 3rd world countries people don't have computers let alone theyknow anything about sl
[10:12] junivers Stockholm: sure it is trill - its very important
[10:12] junivers Stockholm: there is another one too - check that after Zeitgeist addendum
[10:12] Anon1: i think the most horrible thing is about ignorance
[10:12] Starshine: what's the url of that video??

[10:12] Anon1: they dont even know whats going on
[10:12] junivers Stockholm: yay kiki
[10:12] Anon1: if all media gets censored
[10:13] junivers Stockholm: and you know what kiki - many of our leaders are VERY ignorant
[10:13] Agnes Sharple: Starshine right, let us use this privilege to something useful
[10:13] Violet: Not knowing isn't too bad....it's knowing things that are just wrong that worries me :p

[10:13] Anon1: i would love to invest loads of efforts leaning politics/economics/development issues, i am afraid of ignorance
[10:13] junivers Stockholm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w&feature=player_embedded
[10:13] Starshine: well I think they do know pretty well what is going on in the 3rd world, it's more often that people in the developed worlds have no idea what 's going on in the rest of the world because they only care for hteir own wellbeing
[10:13] junivers Stockholm: well echonomics shour be "a resource based echonomy"

[10:14] junivers Stockholm: resources are NOT infinitive
[10:14] Agnes Sharple: yes and it makes me sick star shine
[10:14] Anon1: the popes in africa are preaching that....it is the codomns that causes AIDS
[10:14] Starshine: (thnks for the url, I'm gonna check that)
[10:14] Anon1: and 20% population in south africa have AIDS
[10:14] Violet: Yes! Exactly. Misinformation is dangerous.
[10:15] Anon1: it is due to religious reasons
[10:15] junivers Stockholm: @star... i think the worst ignorance is not ignorance of what is - it it the ignorance of what CAN BE

[10:15] Anon1: religions dont like contraception there
[10:15] Anon1: and the AIDS is going wild there
[10:15] junivers Stockholm: please do star - it changed the lives of many :)
[10:16] Starshine: ah oke that movie is 2.45 ohours, hehe I'm gonna check later
[10:16] Anon1: and it is sad when ppl are taking political leaders as god, when actually corruption is wild

[10:17] Anon1: or misinformation is from the leaders
[10:17] junivers Stockholm: yepp its long but its about us, our systems complexity and about the alternative to it
[10:17] Agnes S. : those of you who havent seen it, pls take your time to watch, its really interesting :)
[10:18] junivers Stockholm: you said it kiki - corruption is spread in the whole system - i guess even to most of us

[10:18] junivers Stockholm: YAY agnes - i agree
[10:18] Starshine: oke I'm so sorry I have to cook and make dinner, feed the family this seems like a nice initiative, I will try to come more often and see if I can contribute to the discussion more next time, goodluck you all
[10:18] Anon1: who...world health organization?
[10:19] junivers Stockholm: all "left people" should see it - and all other that have been starting thinking for themself
[10:19] Agnes Sharple: to think we `ll end the meeting here, its fun Been Than an Hour, But of course, Anybody intersted in Discussing more, pls stay:)

[10:20] Violet: Take care, everyone :)
[10:20] Agnes S. : great to see you all here and great discussion!:))
[10:21] Trill Zapatero: see you all
[10:21] junivers Stockholm: i guess its time to do something else

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