Saturday, 25 June 2011

TUESDAY DISCUSSION!

Our Red Star Bar discussions are returning next week after a few weeks off.

This weeks topic – “Where is globalisation going to take us after the crisis in capitalism – further socialising debt among the poor and working, or socialising wealth and power amongst all?"

For comradely chat - COME ALONG!

7pm TUESDAY 28 June

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/202/8/115

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16 comments:

josjoha said...

Note: this chat has already gone by, they listed the am/pm wrong: it was apparently at 7am SLT. Tip: list the time correctly, and also put it in GMT, and add the timezone used (SLT or other).

Without discipline, no revolution and no results, you better believe it.

Plot Tracer said...

Hey Jos

With a little more help, SLLU could run even smoother... what can you do to help?

We have a lot of jobs - from notice sending, through to building; events coordination; blog writing; recruiting... you name it, it needs done. So what do you want to take on?

josjoha said...

Yeah, I know Plot, sorry was disappointed i had missed it.

I am doubting that SLLU will be a useful springboard for social change, because I do not see any relevant content discussion about what I am proposing. Only the crude ways of a traditional 'farmers war.' There is no sophistication to the planning into this revolution, or to take over parliament or what I am proposing.

I have more then enough work trying to get the world in good order, based on things that can actually work. If anyone wishes to help me then that will be great.

I have a great many jobs available, too many to mention almost. Sending propaganda, but also teaching true economics. Activism in the universities against the lies that pass for 'economics' there. Direct use of real democracy systems. Setting up of new political parties that are much stronger then before with internal democracy. Organizing direct revolution, and in some nations it may be necessary even to set up people's defense armies against a looming tyranny (such as the USA).

So ... there is a choice to be made here, which in a stark way is: do people want to organize riots and concerts, or do they want to get together and build up a new and better society right now. The choice will be made, whether people want to or not, you better believe it. WW3 is on the road already. Good luck. There is no more time for less then Sovereign Revolutionary politics and action.

To organize great demonstrations and mob like political parties is simply not good enough. It can work, certainly, but it isn't efficient and it won't (easily, and never has) lead to a stable society with the amount of justice we need.

Plot Tracer said...

Jos - this is laughable to be honest.

If you feel SL is in any way a forum where revolution can be sparked, you are deluded. SL can only be a place for education and discussion - if you feel it will be a place to spark getting people on to the streets, go ahead, knock yourself out in organising something.
In real life, this week i have stood shoulder to shoulder with striking workers and have helped organise a real coalition for resistance - what SLLU can do - and does, is bring people together who are involved in real life activity to show others who may be isolated from centres of resistance what is going on and perhaps giving people confidence to organise something in their workplace/ place of study/ suburban rural or urban place of residence.

So, here is a challenge for you - why not organise an economics class/ discussion in the space SLLU has given you? I'll give you perms for sending out notices.

As for criticizing the music day we had last week - during the lead up to that and during that day, we managed to educate hundreds of people on the existence of Revolutionary anti-war and pro-women organisations in Afghanistan and in so doing, we raised $500USD to add to Trill Zapatero's efforts (coming to nearly $3000 USD) to help these people in their fight against imperialism and fundamentalism.

I hear so often from the ultra left, "don't give to charity - it keeps people on their knees," which in a capitalist neo-con world is a pile of shite to use a Northern Irish term. We in our privileged, who have time to give to SL or to other leisure/ educational pursuits should be able to give over some of that time to helping others get off their knees - a position the imperialist / capitalist savagery has forced them. The seeds of capitalism's destruction is inherent in the many dichotomies thrown up by its own awful system. Lets use those to encourage others to cast off the chains we in the west are so weighted down by.

By the way, I recommend my friend's economic analysis -

http://www.leftbanker.net

joshb said...

Plot, it will be interesting to teach real economics in SLLU; maybe that will work. Teach, as in propose of course, people will have to think things through and reach a real understanding that comes by really knowing it, which is probably not going to be that easy.

By the way I am not against charity at all, I oppose the marxist idea not to buy fair trade because that is something that will not be enough and only detract from a revolutionary effort. It will not be enough, and it can detract from a revolutionary effort, but that doesn't mean it isn't something good that has to be done. Fair trade - a form of charity perhaps - buying features quite prominent in my proposal to how to change things.

I don't think people seem to realize what we have to do. We won't make it with a few strikes or even a 2 month natural strike. Such attemps have been made for a century, and it has given us a society that is much better then 1700-1900 has been. But it is not enough, you can easily see that in the ongoing imperialist warfare. These things have to stop, it is going to have to be done the hard way.

At the end of this, Blair will have to be either dead in combat, or he is working on forced labor in the mines. It's over, not playing any more games with the scum in the top, either way they go down, whether this goes through parliament or through street level revolution. Can the world afford a lot more all out wars: no it can't. Can we afford more tyrannies with the current levels of technology: no we can't.

I'm all for strikes and even marches, but we have to go all the way now.

josjoha said...

Ok, let me try to explain how economics works, how society can look like if people wanted it, how we destroy the power of the ruling class and put Blair and the rest of them on forced labor for life if we manage to get the evidence to convict them...

It is worth an attempt for sure.

SL isn't the first platform that fails to produce real results, it's merely the last in a long line of platforms including real-life. People just don't want to hear the truth, so my guess it we will not get results until we have had another world war and people can really see what a catastrophy they have produced with each other. Maybe then they are interested, although I still doubt it. I've years of experience in trying to show people the obvious. People want to walk behind the pack that's all, and the subject isn't that easy.

Your left-banker site is from someone in the system, who even talks on the Nobel prizes; and I didn't see them putting out a system that works. Nobel prizes get their money together from speculation, I tend to use the Nobel price as a way of identifying whom can not be trusted, sorry.

We have to get the world in order Plot, and the criminals in jail (such as Blair) if we can get the evidence together. There have to be results that far outstrip anything that has been accomplished since 1900 with strikes or demonstrations. We need a real revolution and deep reorganization of society. No more empires can be had, no more imperial wars, no more tyrannies that threaten the world. Such goals have never been achieved to date through the labor movement using either strikes or demonstrations and the neo-greek factions democracy which is now discredited to a degree by politcians getting sweet jobs with the enemy after 'service'.

We need a real revolution, not just the world but an actual overtaking of the Sovereingty by the people, and installation of a system that does not corrupt that easily as the old economy and parliament had been. Things will get very serious from here on, because the weapons of war and tyranny have never been as extreme as they are today. We have to secure sovereign victory in this decade, in my estimation, so let's do just that.

josjoha said...

Oops 2 times, i thought i had lost my first comment, sorry.

Plot Tracer said...

The Left Banker is a revolutionary socialist in rl.

josjoha said...

People put more work in planning a party, then they do in planning a world revolution. Is it any wonder it doesn't succeed ? How would someone plan a party for 5 persons ? That's fairly easy. Try 50 then, ok then we have to put some effort into it, maybe rent a space and get the foods and drinks in order. Try 500 then, you'd probably be thinking of perhaps hiring someone who knows how to do it. You'd need not only to organize the bigger place, the food, the entertainment, but even the parking. What to do when too few show up, who will shoulder the cost ?

That is already above the limit most people ever engage in. Try a party for 5.000 then, that is almost impossible to do as a simple person. Maybe you can get there hiring widely popular musicians. You will probably have to handle city hall for a large public space. Now you're also going to have to have medical personell on hand, you have to deal with more and more issues.

A party for 50.000 people is a soccer match for example. This is a professional business where people work in all their lives. It is wholly organized by people who do that as their full time employement. Tens of people busy themselves with organizing it full time, and thousands are running the party. Now you will even have a police force on hand. Because it is routine by now, it is of course easier. A revolution is not routine. Parties of 500.000 persons do not occur, sometimes a demonstration can be that large.

That is nothing in the revolutionary business: 500.000 persons is no revolution yet. For a real revolution that touches upon all, not just another coupe that leaves all the same, the numbers are roughly from 1 million to 50 million persons, and even more. To a degree that an imperialist war threatens you have to take into account the activities of billions of people.

Yet it is approached with a cavelier attitude usually, as if it was a party of only 5 persons. I tell you, it's not going to work that way. It is several magnitudes more difficult then a 'party' of 500.000 persons. It needs to be planned carefully, and realisticly. How does the enemy constantly defeat the labor class ? Through superior planning and strategy. As you may know I did put to paper an extensive plan for national and even world revolution. All that stuff took in total maybe 5 years or so to put down, including the post revolutionary system so that actually something is achieved long term.

Compared to a party of 50.000, a revolution has to deal with things like famine, civil war, terrorism by the state, and terrorism by the labor class as well (notably anarchists), deception, chaos, who is armed. Those are the immediate problems of survival for people. Beyond that is the functioning of society into itself, its economic activity: it has to work, people have to make their own decisions inside the framework of a system.

The labor class never set itself to this task to the degree that it would be necessary to make it work.

Even my plan, big as it is, will still need to be augmented with the actual 'flesh' of how to get a million things done in ten thousand areas, actually on the ground. Big as it is, it is still only a meagre skeleton that by itself may only barely be able to give the revolution some needed general direction. It still needs a ton of work, work that I can't and won't do because it will have to be done in each nation, and also when the time approaches to accomplish certain sub-goals.

Revolution is the most serious business people can busy themselves with, and we can do it, but there has to be an effort for it that is magnitudes bigger then the planning and effort for the biggest parties in the world.

Plot Tracer said...

So your idea is "practical."

It seems your idea is one that means no-one does anything because of the scale of your idea and because of the fact you have no-one signing up to your idea. Which makes your idea another of those from a left sect - only this time with a membership not of one man and his dog, but of one man who wont do anything because noone else will do what he thinks is right... (sigh).

In the mean time, in real life, I am off with members of my branch of the Scottish Socialist Party to help another branch outside Glasgow, organise an anti-cuts/austerity measures meeting. Now - this meeting and our activity today may not spark a world wiode revolution, but I like to think of my interaction with real people as at the very least, a grain of sand on the floor of the workshop where the great chain of socialism is being forged...

josjoha said...

Plot, this is exactly what I mean: your negativity is entirely off the mark. A new idea always starts with someone who proposes it, and then there is usually a period where that person is ignored and thought of as crazy. What else is new ? The truth won't go away just because people do not want to look at it (yet), the truth will always be the truth.

You imagined that I do not engage in real life activities, why did you do that ? Because you need to fill in a preconception with the necessary colors ? Even though you have no evidence that I do not engage in activities in real life ? You need me to be a lone individual behind his computer, angry nobody does what he says, while making obscurantic plans and ideas. It's all a fantasy in your mind Plot, covering over the fact that you do also not engage me on the content of economics, revolution, and everything of that nature. Looking at side issues, as a way of ignoring the matter at hand: revolution itself, economics, law, politics, etc.

Where was I just now ? This noon I was at the city square, where I counted 138 persons in a demonstration against plans from the Government to end 1500 jobs for people with special needs (subsidized work). We do that every month, last month I counted 70 persons.

I know about these protests, because I write the minutes for a committee of the Union Federation of the Netherlands, a committee commissioned to pressure local politics, it is called FNV-Lokaal (you can look it up). This is not a small time back alley thing, this is the most powerful Union federation in the Netherlands, and I have the bag with print to prove it (hehe).

At this demonstration I met some people who had launched a new revolutionary initiative, with ties to Greek and Spanish students. I gave them my plan, and I hope to join them at their next picket line thursday.

Before that I was also part of the then still quite left wing party 'socialist party.' I delivered their monthly magazine (for free), and put folders in people's letterboxes urging them to vote against the EU Empire Constitution - a vote that we fortunately won. I have not been able to teach this party real economics either, and I also failed to teach NCPN (Dutch Communists); they all just put their ears shut and scream 'lalalalalala' G.d forbid they'd learn the truth and actually have to do something that really works.

Meanwhile I had written a 25.000 lines of code computer program, that makes internet voting a reality. This was published, and we tested it with D66, and it worked well. That party betrayed its members in not putting that to action too.

If you will only tag along the biggest crowd money can buy, you will always walk exactly where the money directs you, think about that. I have no money, therefore it is hard to get anywhere in terms of numbers. But that is not the point, the point is to be right.

Your party can still profit from my system, I hope they have the intellectual honesty to look into it, and get it done. It's not that there is an alternative to the truth anyway. Capitalism or the plan economy, they both do not work and will never work, these are provable issues.

By the way, I also once striked - that was a 'wild' strike in the cleaning business. You judge a proposal on negative preconceptions about the person that issued them, who turn out wrong. That, definitely, is not socialism, is it; i'm sure you and your mates agree.

Plot Tracer said...

Funny that. I thought it was you who were coming at this from a negative perspective - dissing other peoples work and initiatives because they had not come to the teachings of Jos. As a matter of fact, do you know anything about the Scottish Socialist Party? Do you know anything about The Left Banker? Because in your posts above, with seemingly little knowledge of either, you have dissed them as "being in the system" etc. If you did know anything about either - one - the Party - is certainly not the "crowd" to be with if it is power and fame you seek! And two - the Left Banker - is a real left economist who not only presents his alternatives to groups all over Europe, but is frequently on the media here explaining a fair and distributive system.

Do you know of OUR economic programme or the Left Bankers proposals? Or are your proposals so precious and indisputable, you need not read anything else?

Still waiting for a proposal for a meeting at which you will educate us all. Tell you what - I'll propose one. How about Wednesday? name a time and I will ensure notices go out, plus an events listing. Hold it in the Red Star Bar - this is becoming a well known place for left meetings in SL.

Your original dig at SLLU (and tbh - me - was, "Without discipline, no revolution and no results, you better believe it." - So the ball is in your court. I will back your meeting with publicity on SL and through this blog - so when will you be having it and what do you want it "titled."

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it." Are you merely another lone lefty philosopher, or are you going to "do?"

josjoha said...

Plot, thanks for the opportunity, as I already said it would be great to make use of it. I was busy yesterday to put up a place for that on my land; I bought a 16 seater council table, and decided to have a meeting/thing every Sunday at 10:00am - 11:00am SLT. See 'heavenly serenity' (I do hope I converted the times properly, it can be confusing especially with the daylight savings times.)

Look Plot: all that happened was that I was disappointed that I missed the Red Bar chat, you should take that as a compliment. You put the time down wrong, mixing am with pm. I'm sorry if I insulted you, ok ?

It will be great to do that what you proposed, wednesday in the red bar is of course fine. The time of 10:00am is probably a good one, since it means the Americans and the Europeans can try to get there. What do you prefer: rolling debates (that can turn into fist fights), or a more formal teaching thing where I prepare something in advance and paste it to chat, i can even make excercizes for it so that people can learn economics even better. If you want even an exam, whatever.

I did scan the left-banker site for a heading 'solutions' but didn't find it. The scottish socialist party I don't know anything about, but I know some of your remarks and therefore conclude that you do not seem to have a decisive grasp on the subject of economics. Come to the meeting and you can hopefully learn how it all works, it is not that difficult at all. Yes, you read that right: I do know how it works, and you all don't, deal with it. Learn and then we can do it, change the world for real, so that it will work, rather then more ad-hoc measures that have been tried now for a century - not without success, but not with enough success yet, as is more then a little obvious.

I'll now try to find out what this 'distributive' system of this left-banker is; by name it sounds interesting. Well again I can't find anything there, it is a rolling blog on current issues. To contrast with my site for example: you can not miss what I propose even if you tried. Links right to a new Constitution for example, and a revolutionary/reform/uprising program. You can't expect me to wade throug a lot about current events, to find a few remarks on how else.

Scottish party you refer to, seems to be one of those socialist-democratic parties, some of which are more 'radical' then others (the more radical tend to be the better ones of course, the rest is been co-opted to the hilt.)

Free lunches for school children, 'internationalism' ... everyone happy. OK great: please come to the meating and we'll put some actual flesh on that. No more waving with the magic wand and throwing smoke in the air, but hard deep cutting measures, laws and decisions, solve this thing once and for all.

You messed up on the time, I was a bit more rough on you then I should perhaps have been; let's put it behind us and work for the good of all.

josjoha said...

By the way, I post some of *my* comments on my own blog as well (which is supposed to be a rolling record as to how this entire revolution thing is unfolding.) Feel free to comment there if you feel like it, freedom of speech is assured (try it).

http://blogger.xs4all.nl/joshb/

By the way, I found a problematic point in your Scottish party:

"Supermarket prices will be frozen"

http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/new_stories/furniture/12pointplan.html

That will not work. Maybe we should make the meeting about that then. All the way down to the essence of trade, how it should (could) work, what does not work (neither as capitalism with all-out-trade in everything from land, to investment credit, or the opposite the totalitarian plan-economy). I think that would be a great subject for the far left for sure.

josjoha said...

Plot, thanks for the opportunity, as I already said it would be great to make use of it. I was busy yesterday to put up a place for that on my land; I bought a 16 seater council table, and decided to have a meeting/thing every Sunday at 10:00am - 11:00am SLT. See 'heavenly serenity' (I do hope I converted the times properly, it can be confusing especially with the daylight savings times.)

Look Plot: all that happened was that I was disappointed that I missed the Red Bar chat, you should take that as a compliment. You put the time down wrong, mixing am with pm. I'm sorry if I insulted you, ok ?

It will be great to do that what you proposed, wednesday in the red bar is of course fine. The time of 10:00am is probably a good one, since it means the Americans and the Europeans can try to get there. What do you prefer: rolling debates (that can turn into fist fights), or a more formal teaching thing where I prepare something in advance and paste it to chat, i can even make excercizes for it so that people can learn economics even better. If you want even an exam, whatever.

I did scan the left-banker site for a heading 'solutions' but didn't find it. The scottish socialist party I don't know anything about, but I know some of your remarks and therefore conclude that you do not seem to have a decisive grasp on the subject of economics. Come to the meeting and you can hopefully learn how it all works, it is not that difficult at all. Yes, you read that right: I do know how it works, and you all don't, deal with it. Learn and then we can do it, change the world for real, so that it will work, rather then more ad-hoc measures that have been tried now for a century - not without success, but not with enough success yet, as is more then a little obvious.

I'll now try to find out what this 'distributive' system of this left-banker is; by name it sounds interesting. Well again I can't find anything there, it is a rolling blog on current issues. To contrast with my site for example: you can not miss what I propose even if you tried. Links right to a new Constitution for example, and a revolutionary/reform/uprising program. You can't expect me to wade throug a lot about current events, to find a few remarks on how else.

Scottish party you refer to, seems to be one of those socialist-democratic parties, some of which are more 'radical' then others (the more radical tend to be the better ones of course, the rest is been co-opted to the hilt.)

Free lunches for school children, 'internationalism' ... everyone happy. OK great: please come to the meating and we'll put some actual flesh on that. No more waving with the magic wand and throwing smoke in the air, but hard deep cutting measures, laws and decisions, solve this thing once and for all.

You messed up on the time, I was a bit more rough on you then I should perhaps have been; let's put it behind us and work for the good of all.

[repost, i posted this before the last one, did it get lots ?]

josjoha said...

Plot, i have prepared a chat-lecture, it is here already: http://blogger.xs4all.nl/joshb/archive/2011/07/05/664904.aspx

I also give it to you as a notecard in SL, and maybe you can attach it to the invitations, so people who want to can prepare themselves more thoroughly.

I didn't touch on the matter of the plan-economy, because it all gets too much for a one our thing (regarding the idea of the SSP to freeze prices, which is a plan-economy aka command and control economy.) That can certainly be dealt with in another installment !

Thanks for the opportunity, I hope many people want to learn how economics really works, so that the nation(s) can profit from the truth.