I wanna live forever..! - Discussion chatlog

Present: Jeff Hema, Plot Tracer, Merriam Galaxy, Josiane Llewellyn, Shiaida Palianta, Agnes Sharple, Loty Doty, Khannea Suntzu, Trent Infinity, joji Shilova, YT Upsilon (Lynne), Trent Infinity; Sophiekittycat Resident; Ataraxia Azemus; josjoha Resident;

A bit of a different one this week: If nano technology was released that meant that everyone in the world had the potential to live forever without their body aging beyond the physicality of 25 (and be able to reverse aging in those over 25) – how would this change the world order/ social system/ human ambition/ecology? http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/243/68/123

[2011/05/12 07:05] IM: Sparkz Munro: you might find this of interest assuming you dont already know it :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Gift_from_Earth

[2011/05/12 07:11] Plot Tracer: beer pies and revolution is all we offer :)
[2011/05/12 07:11] Plot Tracer: ok
[2011/05/12 07:11] Josiane Llewellyn: beer pies :)
[2011/05/12 07:11] Plot Tracer: before we begin the discussion, can i point out a couple of things of interest
[2011/05/12 07:12] Josiane Llewellyn: my first time here
[2011/05/12 07:12] Plot Tracer: those of you who haven’t been here before, this is sl left unity land - a group set up nearly years. we run discussions regularly on different topics
[2011/05/12 07:12] Plot Tracer: some of our past chatlogs can be found on www.slleftunity.com (along with other information about the group)

[2011/05/12 07:12] Khannea Suntzu: left unity?
[2011/05/12 07:13] Plot Tracer: yes - left unity.

[2011/05/12 07:13] Plot Tracer: a couple more things - one is that we are running a fundraiser here on 18 june to raise money for RAWA

[2011/05/12 07:13] Plot Tracer: details again are on our site - www.slleftunity.com

[2011/05/12 07:13] Plot Tracer: and lastly - this venue and the stage area is open for people to perform etc. we have a new events manager, who is here - merriam galaxy. if u are a performer, please contact her about a slot.

[2011/05/12 07:14] Merriam Galaxy coughs

[2011/05/12 07:14] Plot Tracer: ok. Today’s topic was opened to more groups than purely left groups because it is a strange one!

[2011/05/12 07:15] Plot Tracer: oh - by the way - when we finish is everyone ok for us to place the chatlog on the website? If u want to remain anon, please im me

[2011/05/12 07:16] Plot Tracer: todays topic - If nano technology was released that meant that everyone in the world had the potential to live forever without their body aging beyond the physicality of 25 (and be able to reverse aging in those over 25) – how would this change the world order/ social system/ human ambition/ecology?

[2011/05/12 07:16] Plot Tracer: would anyone like to start us off?

[2011/05/12 07:17] Josiane Llewellyn: hm well we would need space habs for people to migrate to.
[2011/05/12 07:17] Khannea Suntzu: pension system, expectations, economy, humans actually interested in the future, things moving slower or actually faster...? more risky or actually more cautious? No, population growth would no increase very fast at first.
[2011/05/12 07:18] Khannea Suntzu: Eventually it would, but the increase would only be very little more than current.
[2011/05/12 07:18] Josiane Llewellyn: Oh?
[2011/05/12 07:18] Merriam Galaxy: how,khannea?
[2011/05/12 07:18] Agnes Sharple: you would need a ppls profile or something to tell the difference between ppl who are actually 25 and ppl who are 225 :P

[2011/05/12 07:19] Khannea Suntzu: Yes, pure arithmetic. The amount of people benefiting from this (i.e. those who would NOT die would all be a demographic by and large born in the 1940s-1950s. We used to have a LOT less people back then.

[2011/05/12 07:19] Plot Tracer: but back then there was a huge sudden increase in population, right, khan?
[2011/05/12 07:19] Plot Tracer: soz - in the 1950s -60s
[2011/05/12 07:20] YT Upsilon: Baby boomers.
[2011/05/12 07:20] Plot Tracer: what about resources? how would it effect those and the management of those?
[2011/05/12 07:20] Khannea Suntzu: Yep. But the consequence is that if we had these treatments, we would need some kind of controls for new influx pretty soon. Birth quota. But to put it bluntly - the damage is alreadyu done. There are far more births than people dying.
[2011/05/12 07:20] YT Upsilon: You'd have a choice - live forever but have no kids, or reproduce and take the pill of death.
[2011/05/12 07:21] Agnes Sharple: without the body aging; does that mean there will be no injuries either?
[2011/05/12 07:21] Khannea Suntzu: Lynne, and you would enforce this how in a democracy? How would you get this idea elected?

[2011/05/12 07:21] YT Upsilon: Instant repair - if you can fix the damage done by aging.
[2011/05/12 07:21] YT Upsilon: Simple - control the nanotech.
[2011/05/12 07:21] Agnes Sharple: uhm, i like elder men :P haha
[2011/05/12 07:22] YT Upsilon: Democracy would become meaningless.
[2011/05/12 07:22] Agnes Sharple: everybody being 25 would be a nightmare to me

[2011/05/12 07:22] YT Upsilon: If everyone lives forever- Me too Agnes.
[2011/05/12 07:22] Khannea Suntzu: I don't take well to claims of people who dismiss democracy.
[2011/05/12 07:22] Plot Tracer: well, agnes, this question is based on real scientific pronouncements - that most disease will be treatable as will most injury (ther ewill be untreatable injuries also - brain injuries etc will sometimes be beyond reach) - but the scientists say within 25 years, we will have the technology to allow people to stop aging and in fact reverse the process
[2011/05/12 07:22] YT Upsilon: What democracy?

[2011/05/12 07:22] YT Upsilon: As a Brit I can tell you it's a myth.
[2011/05/12 07:23] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, these advances will eventually be democratically distributed
[2011/05/12 07:23] YT Upsilon: We haven't achieved it - yet.
[2011/05/12 07:23] Rhiannon Dragoone: Like any other advances in tech; it's the short term that is worrisome

[2011/05/12 07:23] YT Upsilon: In the short term, people like me will be long gone before they give me the tech.
[2011/05/12 07:23] Josiane Llewellyn: Yes not everyone would be able to have it as soon as it is developed.
[2011/05/12 07:23] Agnes Sharple: i don’t think the human brain, not to talk about humanity would be able to deal with a scenario like that

[2011/05/12 07:23] Khannea Suntzu: Plus I don't see why this treatment would be obligatory. Many would refuse it. This has been studied - the rate ' of 'defection', i.e. people who would REFUSE life extension or rejuvenation treatments would be in the high 50% ranges for some countries.
[2011/05/12 07:24] Khannea Suntzu: Plus some people would 'age a little', then reset to youth, and jokjo back and forth.

[2011/05/12 07:24] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, they would make it mandatory in order to stop only an elite from hving it
[2011/05/12 07:24] YT Upsilon: Khannea - Initially yes, but then as it became "the norm" the take up would be higher.

[2011/05/12 07:24] YT Upsilon: The main problem would probably be an increase in mental illness.
[2011/05/12 07:25] Khannea Suntzu: Sure. But it's a free world. Everyone has a right to die if they preer.
[2011/05/12 07:25] Khannea Suntzu: prefer
[2011/05/12 07:25] YT Upsilon: Not in the UK they don't.

[2011/05/12 07:25] Plot Tracer: ok- how would thinking change - how would the demographics and political landscape change when people have a memory reach of 200... 300 years?
[2011/05/12 07:25] Khannea Suntzu: Odd. I'd rather see mental illness decrease sharply.
[2011/05/12 07:25] YT Upsilon: We have to go to Switzerland for that.
[2011/05/12 07:25] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, you're talking how it's supposed to be

[2011/05/12 07:25] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, lol
[2011/05/12 07:26] Khannea Suntzu: Let's just see what happens in a single century when this technology emerges.
[2011/05/12 07:26] Khannea Suntzu: A lot can and will happen in that century.

[2011/05/12 07:26] YT Upsilon: Nature will probably find a way past it. Nano viruses to kill Nano tech.
[2011/05/12 07:26] Khannea Suntzu: http://khanneasuntzu.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/constructive-lying-to-the-baselines-%E2%80%93-white-rabbit-05-sunday-1-may-2011/

[2011/05/12 07:27] Plot Tracer: If people suddenly have infinite age - how does that affect our finite resources and their use/ distribution?

[2011/05/12 07:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: Plot, well, we would have to either limit population or go into space
[2011/05/12 07:27] YT Upsilon: Hopefully we'll be older - and wiser.
[2011/05/12 07:27] Khannea Suntzu: As if we don't already have a total catastrophe in resource use.

[2011/05/12 07:27] YT Upsilon: Maybe a bit more long-termism, rather than short term consumerism.
[2011/05/12 07:28] Khannea Suntzu: Longer life would be a total blessing. People would actually care about the future.

[2011/05/12 07:28] YT Upsilon: You might think twice about destroying a place, if you figure you've got to stay there.
[2011/05/12 07:28] YT Upsilon: Plus - we would definitely start leaving.

[2011/05/12 07:28] Khannea Suntzu: Right now people anticipate dying and want to consume as much as possible before the slam the door behind them,
[2011/05/12 07:29] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynee, works well with corporations, which are already immortal. lol

[2011/05/12 07:29] YT Upsilon: Immortal or immoral?
[2011/05/12 07:29] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, both. lol
[2011/05/12 07:29] Khannea Suntzu: Like vampires. Both.
[2011/05/12 07:29] YT Upsilon: Corporations have no idea of long-termism. They rarely think beyond the next P&L sheet.

[2011/05/12 07:29] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, that's my point; long life doesn't mean thinking long term
[2011/05/12 07:29] YT Upsilon: I blame the shareholders.
[2011/05/12 07:30] Khannea Suntzu: Corporations are not immortal. They anticipate dying in a matter of years.

[2011/05/12 07:30] YT Upsilon: No - long life means you will experience the blackouts / riots / starvation - there's a difference.

[2011/05/12 07:30] Rhiannon Dragoone: The shareholders do have to take responsibility
[2011/05/12 07:30] YT Upsilon: And the consumers.

[2011/05/12 07:31] YT Upsilon: There are very few people on this earth who bare little or no responsibilities - she says typing on her Sony Vaio, in the comfort of her nice warm home.
[2011/05/12 07:31] Khannea Suntzu: Shareholders are parasites on the corporate system. Shareholders can leave if they don't like a corporation. This makes corporations compete in ruthlessness.
[2011/05/12 07:31] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, lol

[2011/05/12 07:31] YT Upsilon: It depends on the shareholder. Like most things.
I'm sure there are some nice shareholders out there, who invest in things they truly believe in.
[2011/05/12 07:32] Agnes Sharple: I’m not sure, but i kind of suspect humanity to come up with e method to kill each other still

[2011/05/12 07:32] YT Upsilon: The main problem is pension funds.
[2011/05/12 07:32] Rhiannon Dragoone: I think the question is, though, Lynne, whether longevity will make a difference

[2011/05/12 07:32] YT Upsilon: So - the main problem is pensioners. LOL
[2011/05/12 07:32] YT Upsilon: Yes, of course it would - positive or negative (probably both).
[2011/05/12 07:32] Rhiannon Dragoone: Pension funds draw from resources; we are just going to have to come up with replicators; all there is to it

[2011/05/12 07:32] YT Upsilon: New opportunities for new problems.
[2011/05/12 07:33] YT Upsilon: But the replicators will eat us!
[2011/05/12 07:33] YT Upsilon: I've watched Stargate.
[2011/05/12 07:33] Agnes Sharple: no need for pension if ppl are at the state of 25 forever is it?
[2011/05/12 07:33] Khannea Suntzu: Penson funds won't last ten, twnety more years. It's ending already. Nobody here under 35 should ever expect to receive a pension if you live in a western country. It's a scam.
[2011/05/12 07:33] YT Upsilon: It's a nice little Ponsi scheme that has reached its peak.

[2011/05/12 07:33] Khannea Suntzu: In fact pension funds would be a nice box of money we could harvest to fund research into life extension.

[2011/05/12 07:34] Plot Tracer: so - will society change from 2% owning 90%+ of resources ?

[2011/05/12 07:34] YT Upsilon: Hey! Don't you go raiding my pension pot!;-)

[2011/05/12 07:34] YT Upsilon: Doubtful Plot.

[2011/05/12 07:34] Plot Tracer: will it only be 2% of people who can live in comfort while the rest of the long livers become drones?

[2011/05/12 07:34] Khannea Suntzu: It's not my idea actually. Let me show you this video.

[2011/05/12 07:34] YT Upsilon: I'm already a drone.

[2011/05/12 07:35] Khannea Suntzu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8CyNQDsass&feature=player_embedded

[2011/05/12 07:35] Khannea Suntzu: That is a video nade by a subsidiary of the Methuselah foundation.
[2011/05/12 07:36] Khannea Suntzu: When I was in Milan I asked Aubrey about it, and he regarded it as a side project.

[2011/05/12 07:37] Khannea Suntzu: They more or less *argue* here to save gobal economies by using life extension.
[2011/05/12 07:37] Khannea Suntzu: I think they have a point.

[2011/05/12 07:38] YT Upsilon: Well, the alternative is leaving people out on the ice - so yes, let's go with longevity - coz I hate the cold.

[2011/05/12 07:38] YT Upsilon: Children are what we were, old people are what we will all become (with a bit of luck). ;)

[2011/05/12 07:39] Plot Tracer: ok - we seem to be speaking about this under a retention of current thinking- current economic organisation. Can the current "growth" economy support life? do you think people may change this "growth" model to a sustainable one if they realise their infinite longevity is threatened?

[2011/05/12 07:39] Khannea Suntzu: Well if I can, I will take whatever means I can to live forever, in an acceptable physical and mental state. Nothing about extinction is acceptable to me.

[2011/05/12 07:40] Plot Tracer: i'm with u there khan!

[2011/05/12 07:40] Agnes Sharple: i prefer to die :)

[2011/05/12 07:40] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, life extension, by itself doesn't create new problems; as long as we have productive and fair resourse management, encourage creativity in people. Erm...
[2011/05/12 07:40] Khannea Suntzu: Thats OK, agnes, but do not make your preference common law ok?
[2011/05/12 07:40] Plot Tracer: khan -

http://wikilivres.info/wiki/Do_Not_Go_Gentle_into_that_Good_Night

[2011/05/12 07:41] Agnes Sharple: why should i do that?
[2011/05/12 07:41] Khannea Suntzu: Just making sure.
[2011/05/12 07:41] Agnes Sharple: ??

[2011/05/12 07:41] Plot Tracer: why do you prefer to die, Agnes?

[2011/05/12 07:41] Rhiannon Dragoone: "I want to live forever; light up the world like a flame; I want to live forever; baby, remember my name..."
[2011/05/12 07:41] Agnes Sharple: because living forever would be hell i think- a nightmare- my brain wont be able to handle it

[2011/05/12 07:42] Khannea Suntzu: Odd. I think the certainty of death is a nightmare.
[2011/05/12 07:42] Agnes Sharple: neither my emotions

[2011/05/12 07:42] YT Upsilon: I think it would depend on how you live, but I think eventually you might think - so - what next?
[2011/05/12 07:42] Rhiannon Dragoone: Asimov had a character who argued that after 300 years life became really boring; but she was trying to convince short lived people that they had an advantage over her. Agnes, Parfit maintains that; after a while it won't really be you, as you won't have the memories of the earlier self.

[2011/05/12 07:42] YT Upsilon: It would be horrible to live forever if you were the only one.
[2011/05/12 07:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: And if it's not really you, what's the point?
[2011/05/12 07:43] YT Upsilon: You can only take so much loss.
[2011/05/12 07:43] Agnes Sharple: yes, when youve reached the age of 999 I think you’re gonna ask "what next"

[2011/05/12 07:43] Plot Tracer: i am with khan - i understand your point tho agnes - but with everyone living forever - emotions may change - and their results. eg - funerals may become celebrations as people choose to end their lives?

[2011/05/12 07:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, that's for sure.
[2011/05/12 07:43] Plot Tracer: i disagree rhia
[2011/05/12 07:43] YT Upsilon: Murder would certainly take on an even more horrific tone.
[2011/05/12 07:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: What would be you about you?
[2011/05/12 07:43] Khannea Suntzu: Right now consistently the happiest people are the oldest people, provided they are healthy and have basic necessities. Aging apparently gives you experience in finding ways to make life work for you. Now combine that experience with the health of youth? I am fairly sure I'll be just fine.

[2011/05/12 07:44] Agnes Sharple: I don’t want to choose to die, i want it to be a surprise lol
[2011/05/12 07:44] Plot Tracer: i think people will remain themselves, but cast off experiences much as we do now. eg - i am in my mid forties - and i look back to my early 20s as well, not something that is me now.
[2011/05/12 07:44] YT Upsilon: LOL Agnes.

[2011/05/12 07:44] Rhiannon Dragoone: Agnes, it almost always is

[2011/05/12 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes yt - re murder
[2011/05/12 07:44] Agnes Sharple: and what about the wisdom that comes when you’re getting older and realizes that life isn’t infinite?
[2011/05/12 07:44] Khannea Suntzu: Well Agnes, don't be surprised if I sneakily keep ruining the surprise by saving you year after year.
[2011/05/12 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes khan re elderly happiness and satisfaction
[2011/05/12 07:44] Rhiannon Dragoone: Plot, perhaps, but what is the basis of that? Ego continuity? What's the ego? Memory continuity? But you won't have a memory link after a while
[2011/05/12 07:45] Rhiannon Dragoone: You will have a survivor, inhabiting your body, but it won't be you
[2011/05/12 07:45] YT Upsilon: I think memory killing pills would have to be invented too.
[2011/05/12 07:45] Josiane Llewellyn: I am not sure that identity and memory have to be the same
[2011/05/12 07:45] Agnes Sharple: I’d have one of those pills!

[2011/05/12 07:45] Plot Tracer: why do u think we would not have memory link, rhia?
[2011/05/12 07:45] Agnes Sharple: memorykillpill!

[2011/05/12 07:46] YT Upsilon: You would accumulate so many experiences that you would want to forget. (BTW - they are on their way to a pharmacist near you.)
[2011/05/12 07:46] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, it's getting more tenuous as you grow older with three score and ten, but at age 1000?
[2011/05/12 07:46] YT Upsilon: The MKP .
[2011/05/12 07:46] Josiane Llewellyn: If we want to keep memory, keep a video diary
[2011/05/12 07:46] Plot Tracer: and what are bad memories, but learning experiences? perhaps coping mechanisms will change - but i dont think people will choose to cast off knowledge
[2011/05/12 07:46] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, you would accujulat eso many experience, that you *would* forget--that's my point

[2011/05/12 07:46] YT Upsilon: You haven't watched Dr Who then Plot. ;-)
[2011/05/12 07:47] Plot Tracer: but rhia - i do that now - does that make me less human than i was when i was 18?
[2011/05/12 07:47] Plot Tracer: i am a dr who fan... tha face of bo?
[2011/05/12 07:47] Plot Tracer: :)
[2011/05/12 07:47] YT Upsilon: :-)
[2011/05/12 07:47] Rhiannon Dragoone: Plot, not less human--less you
[2011/05/12 07:47] Plot Tracer: I am less me than I was at 18?
[2011/05/12 07:47] YT Upsilon: (The one with the space whale.)

[2011/05/12 07:47] Rhiannon Dragoone: In other words, it is literally true that you're not the person you used to be
[2011/05/12 07:47] Plot Tracer: kylie yt?
[2011/05/12 07:47] Agnes Sharple: I guess you mean less experienced?
[2011/05/12 07:48] Khannea Suntzu: I agree. There will almost certainly be failure modes when human bodies are made to live far beyond what they neurologies are evolved to be. And then we'll gface that challenge too right?

[2011/05/12 07:48] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, only to a certaiin extent, Plot; but take that and project it across 1000 years
[2011/05/12 07:48] Plot Tracer: i would hope i am not the same person i was at 18
[2011/05/12 07:48] Khannea Suntzu: But there is a far more frightening consideration.
[2011/05/12 07:48] Plot Tracer: i feel i know more now, have more experience of people/ culture etc... and extrapolate that knowledge and self awareness across 1000 years and also to a whole population - how wise would society be! :)

[2011/05/12 07:49] Agnes Sharple: what about reproducing? we need to sterilize all ppl, as well?
[2011/05/12 07:49] Rhiannon Dragoone: Old person smell, only worse, Khannea?
[2011/05/12 07:49] Khannea Suntzu: You all think the world a century from now will be the same in many ways as it is now?
[2011/05/12 07:49] Plot Tracer: Agnes - good question

[2011/05/12 07:49] Agnes Sharple: gosh :(
[2011/05/12 07:49] Khannea Suntzu: I think we are on the verge of far more fundamental changes.
[2011/05/12 07:49] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we would have to colonize other planets if we did reproduce
[2011/05/12 07:49] Agnes Sharple: that would be Mars
[2011/05/12 07:50] Agnes Sharple: in case
[2011/05/12 07:50] Khannea Suntzu: No, Mars would be a bad choice.
[2011/05/12 07:50] Plot Tracer: i definitely do not think the world or its population would be the same as it is now in 1000 years. if we live forever, i hope we would look back to now as terrible barbaric times...
[2011/05/12 07:50] Rhiannon Dragoone: In the short run, Agnes.

[2011/05/12 07:50] YT Upsilon: Ah - found it.

[2011/05/12 07:50] YT Upsilon: http://scifiblock.com/tv/doctor-who/2010/1-2-the-beast-below.htm

[2011/05/12 07:50] YT Upsilon: Ref amnesia pill. :)
[2011/05/12 07:50] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, I don't remember--what's an amnesia pill again? lol
[2011/05/12 07:50] Agnes Sharple: and what about grandkids? i want grandkids!

[2011/05/12 07:51] YT Upsilon: It works!
[2011/05/12 07:51] Agnes Sharple: I don’t want to be a 25 year old grandmother
[2011/05/12 07:51] YT Upsilon: Aww Agnes.
[2011/05/12 07:51] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, lol

[2011/05/12 07:51] Khannea Suntzu: We can construct artificial and quite comfortable worlds from asteroid material. We can construct the equivalent of several thousand earth surfaces of available asteroids, and live there in luxurious conditions far exceeding what we have on a planetary surface. We can *easily* have population growth for centuries.

[2011/05/12 07:51] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, you'll not only have grandkids, Anges, but ever so grand kids
[2011/05/12 07:51] Agnes Sharple: uhm

[2011/05/12 07:52] Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, you mean live literally in space; that'll work, Khannea
[2011/05/12 07:52] Rhiannon Dragoone: ten zillion artificial asteroids floating out there
[2011/05/12 07:52] YT Upsilon: But when we come back, we might not be what left.
[2011/05/12 07:52] Plot Tracer: but Agnes - don’t u think the way we think as family members now, would change after about 50 years? Imagine being physically the same age as your grandkids... perhaps it would put us off from reproducing!

[2011/05/12 07:52] Rhiannon Dragoone: Like the boat people off of Hong Kong, only mega.
[2011/05/12 07:52] Agnes Sharple: whats god in not reproducing?
[2011/05/12 07:52] Plot Tracer: rhia - have u (or anyone else) read the Iain M Banks books?

[2011/05/12 07:53] Rhiannon Dragoone: No, I haven't Plot; What are they about?

[2011/05/12 07:53] Plot Tracer: he writes about a culture in which its citizens live for ever and populate the galaxy - and lots of them live on asteroids/ synthetic planets etc

[2011/05/12 07:53] Khannea Suntzu: Looking at how we treat kids now (like shit) I think we cluld do with a little less reproduction.

[2011/05/12 07:54] Plot Tracer: http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB375GB375&aq=1&oq=iain+m+banks&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=iain+m+banks+culture

[2011/05/12 07:54] Agnes Sharple: we treat children like shit khannea?
[2011/05/12 07:54] YT Upsilon: Alastair Reynolds is good too.
[2011/05/12 07:54] Plot Tracer: would children become more or less better treated in an infinite lifespan?
[2011/05/12 07:54] Agnes Sharple: I don’t know about you, but i don’t
[2011/05/12 07:54] Rhiannon Dragoone: Plot, sounds like fun

[2011/05/12 07:54] Josiane Llewellyn: I've read some of the Iain Banks, the Culture, yeah, I could live like that.

[2011/05/12 07:55] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, there have been a lot of SF or fantasy stories about liviing forever; mostly with vampires, though. Like to see more with hard facts as their background

[2011/05/12 07:55] Khannea Suntzu: Maybe an essential part of development as a human is to feel mortal. Maybe we are there now, in the antstage, and soon we'll be told 'don't worry, you are actually immortal, this was just a phase to teach you something'...

[2011/05/12 07:56] Agnes Sharple: i think you have a point there Khannea, part of it is development because we`re mortal
[2011/05/12 07:56] Agnes Sharple: i mean an essential part
[2011/05/12 07:56] Khannea Suntzu: Scary ride
[2011/05/12 07:56] Josiane Llewellyn: seems more a disease to me, mortality

[2011/05/12 07:56] YT Upsilon: Scary rides are more fun.
[2011/05/12 07:57] YT Upsilon: Better than the Tea Cup ride anyway.
[2011/05/12 07:57] Agnes Sharple: diseases can be good too
[2011/05/12 07:57] Plot Tracer: try Iain M Banks, rhia. he really hits the philosophical and mundane aspects really well

[2011/05/12 07:57] Khannea Suntzu: No I prefer easy river, I kindly thank you for what I got. I refuse this world and all it stands for.
[2011/05/12 07:58] Josiane Llewellyn: If you find a new one, let me know. :)

[2011/05/12 07:58] Merriam Galaxy: I think nano tech has a wide distribution of applications and even what it can do for life extension will not occur fully formed overnight and drop in our laps,
[2011/05/12 07:58] Khannea Suntzu: ...over here... I am just saying in case anyone's listening.
[2011/05/12 07:58] Agnes Sharple: I`ll invite you all to my funeral :P hehe
[2011/05/12 07:58] Plot Tracer: i agree josiane - mortality is a disease imho - and something in my opinion that shows god cannot exist in the form most theistic religions teach
[2011/05/12 07:59] Josiane Llewellyn: I agree there also, Plot. Nano tech could make many differences in life situations too, the economy etc.

[2011/05/12 07:59] Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks for the suggestion, Plot

[2011/05/12 07:59] YT Upsilon: It's already making a difference.
[2011/05/12 08:00] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we'll still be mortal, just long lived

[2011/05/12 08:00] Plot Tracer: if god exists, how can he take the wisest from us? How can he play the joke that you learn all this stuff and then it gets lost?
[2011/05/12 08:00] Josiane Llewellyn: No distribution problems if it could be fully developed.
[2011/05/12 08:00] Agnes Sharple: well if god exists, this isn’t the only "ride" we`ll have
[2011/05/12 08:00] YT Upsilon: Who says it gets lost?
[2011/05/12 08:00] Agnes Sharple: according to those who believe in that
[2011/05/12 08:01] YT Upsilon: Maybe it just downloaded into a great big computer, and we're all just bits and bytes gathering data.

[2011/05/12 08:02] Plot Tracer: ok - let’s refocus for the final part of the discussion. Taking in to consideration that perhaps as someone suggested there would be a 50% up take in this immortality, how do you think the social economic sphere would change? Would there be a hierarchy of the aged? would there be flight from the nation state system? Would there be wars over resources? or would an infinite lifespan help people realise we need a more sustainable/ fair system?

[2011/05/12 08:03] Agnes Sharple: i think there will be more and bigger egos
[2011/05/12 08:03] YT Upsilon: He he.
[2011/05/12 08:03] YT Upsilon: An uptake in the X Factor.
[2011/05/12 08:03] YT Upsilon: I think there would be a huge upheaval.
[2011/05/12 08:04] Rhiannon Dragoone: Omg, the whole world resembling Florida.
[2011/05/12 08:04] Agnes Sharple: hahaha
[2011/05/12 08:04] Khannea Suntzu: Well agnes... consider this... people get a little weird when they get old. Thats myelinization of neuron pathways yes? But what if they have the best of both world - the memories of age AND the flexibility of youth?

[2011/05/12 08:04] YT Upsilon: All the young people waiting for their inheritances and getting impatient.
[2011/05/12 08:04] Agnes Sharple: they get weird?

[2011/05/12 08:04] Khannea Suntzu: Nice novel - 'holy fire'/.... read that

[2011/05/12 08:04] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hmmm, assassination of the elderly, Lynne; might become common place
[2011/05/12 08:05] Khannea Suntzu: sorry what group was that?

[2011/05/12 08:05] Rhiannon Dragoone: People get weird when they get old because of social conditioning
[2011/05/12 08:05] YT Upsilon: Well they already have the terms "oxygen thief" ready.
[2011/05/12 08:05] Rhiannon Dragoone: And because they aren't given productive roles
[2011/05/12 08:05] Agnes Sharple: if so, whats wrong with weird?
[2011/05/12 08:05] Rhiannon Dragoone: That doesn't have to be the case

[2011/05/12 08:05] Plot Tracer: so, infinite lifespan would lead to dystopia rather than utopia?

[2011/05/12 08:05] Agnes Sharple: also "weird" is relative
[2011/05/12 08:05] YT Upsilon: Maybe we need a newtopia.
[2011/05/12 08:06] Rhiannon Dragoone: Plot, it would mean that we have to have awareness of the pitfalls, and work to correct them, otherwise, yes

[2011/05/12 08:06] YT Upsilon: I think it would require a whole new way of thinking, about ourselves and our fellow human beings. We'd have to become far less judgemental and more willing to change.

[2011/05/12 08:06] Josiane Llewellyn: Yes you are right, new ways of thinking and planning
[2011/05/12 08:06] Trent Infinity: that seems unlikely

[2011/05/12 08:07] Josiane Llewellyn: If people were given the opportunity for very long lives, they would be motivated differently
[2011/05/12 08:07] YT Upsilon: The interweb thingy is already changing the way we think.
[2011/05/12 08:07] Josiane Llewellyn: and could make use of nano tech in many forms.
[2011/05/12 08:07] YT Upsilon: ;-)

[2011/05/12 08:07] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, the Bible talks of long lived people, and there was a way to accommodate them, in the narrative, anyway; so the new way of thinking may be an old way of thinking.
[2011/05/12 08:07] Rhiannon Dragoone: (No pun intended)

[2011/05/12 08:08] Agnes Sharple: yes Rhiannon, Abraham was like 375 when he had sex with his daughters to reproduce, because God told him to do so :P

[2011/05/12 08:08] YT Upsilon: Could be - but a bit more relaxed than the Old Testament please.
[2011/05/12 08:08] Rhiannon Dragoone: Lynne, I can go with that. lol

[2011/05/12 08:08] Agnes Sharple: jeez
[2011/05/12 08:08] YT Upsilon: Good.
[2011/05/12 08:09] YT Upsilon: It's been fun, nice to debate the big stuff sometimes. On that note I'll leave you with this:-
[2011/05/12 08:09] YT Upsilon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC4ZOxpu2rs

[2011/05/12 08:09] Agnes Sharple: haha

[2011/05/12 08:09] Rhiannon Dragoone: Agnes, well, hey, God also introduced him to his wife; they like double dated, or something; Thanks, Lynne; tc
[2011/05/12 08:09] Josiane Llewellyn: Need to go now, good discussion, thanks Plot
[2011/05/12 08:09] Khannea Suntzu: I think life extension as an issue is desirable but it is academic. This planet will face a set of transitions far more sweeping than just pople 'living a little longer' in this century.
[2011/05/12 08:10] Rhiannon Dragoone: I think it would be a lot like Florida; no joke intended; Florida is run by old people now

[2011/05/12 08:10] Agnes Sharple: and Disneyland :P
[2011/05/12 08:10] Khannea Suntzu: Again, do read the book "holy fire". \
[2011/05/12 08:10] Khannea Suntzu: Great example
[2011/05/12 08:10] Agnes Sharple: is it sci fi?
[2011/05/12 08:10] Khannea Suntzu: Yes
[2011/05/12 08:10] Agnes Sharple: sorry
[2011/05/12 08:11] Agnes Sharple: god i hate sci fi, it so boring
[2011/05/12 08:11] Rhiannon Dragoone glares at Agnes lol
[2011/05/12 08:11] Khannea Suntzu: This is a nice one :)

[2011/05/12 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is very good scifi books
[2011/05/12 08:11] Rhiannon Dragoone: Some of us like it, Agness
[2011/05/12 08:11] Agnes Sharple: ive tried a million times, cant help it

[2011/05/12 08:11] Khannea Suntzu: http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Fire-Bantam-Spectra-Book/dp/055357549X

[2011/05/12 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: actually i read honor Harington saga it is excellent :)
[2011/05/12 08:11] Agnes Sharple: yes and thats great
[2011/05/12 08:11] Rhiannon Dragoone: It's ok, but I hear there's a cure coming soon, Agnes
[2011/05/12 08:12] Agnes Sharple: actually Kurt Vonnegut is an exception

[2011/05/12 08:13] Plot Tracer: ok - lets wind down. and sum up. Each of u - make a last paragraph on your thoughts on this. and then we will close...
[2011/05/12 08:13] Plot Tracer: thanks sophie - agnes passed that on to me yesterday

[2011/05/12 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: seems that there is not only me for bringing discussions to boiling points ?
[2011/05/12 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: it was about nanos ?

[2011/05/12 08:14] Plot Tracer: lol - we have been here for an hour and a quarter - rl beckons sophie!

[2011/05/12 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: i will not talk about , i got enougth flesh ripping this week

[2011/05/12 08:16] Khannea Suntzu: I do not want to die. I have things to finish. But there are some states of living I am not willing to consent to. I have experienced pain and distress I'd rather not have. I refer to see what will happen in the future since I think more will happen this century than has happened in the last ten thousand years - but not at any price. I think I have front row seats for the major action, but part of me is really affraid. It won't be an easy ride up the slope.

[2011/05/12 08:16] Agnes Sharple: sd to say, but i dont trust humanity enough to want to live forever or to recommend it, i think there always will be troubles and unfairness and im not sure an infinite life will make it better :)

[2011/05/12 08:17] Sophiekittycat Resident: dont worry the rich will live forever and the poor will have short interesting and painful lives :)

[2011/05/12 08:17] Plot Tracer: ok - my last paragraph. i feel that this would be a welcome development - one that would bring proper equality to the world. i live in an area in scotland with one of the longest lifespans - over 80 which borders on one with one of the lowest - 57 - guess which one is wealthy? I think everlasting life would mean people would become more politically aware of who controls resources and would lead to a revolution of sustainablikty as people realise consumption in the way it is run now, is killing thr planet. without the planet, no nano could keep us alive. i believe it would lead to a utopia stretching far beyond this solar system. :)

[2011/05/12 08:17] Khannea Suntzu: Agnes if you live a few hundred years, be prepared to survive or die in the equivalent of an Auschwitz at least once.

[2011/05/12 08:18] Agnes Sharple: i wont live a few hundred years :)

[2011/05/12 08:18] Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.

[2011/05/12 08:19] Agnes Sharple: thats an interesting and beautiful thought Plot

[2011/05/12 08:19] Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, oh, we're about to be booted
[2011/05/12 08:19] Plot Tracer: ha - restart. so last paragraphs quickly! :)

[2011/05/12 08:20] Rhiannon Dragoone: When old people rule the world, the world will be ruled by old people
[2011/05/12 08:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: as it have always been :)

[2011/05/12 08:20] Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks for hosting this, Plot; hope to make it again; depends on whether I wake up before my alarm. lol

[2011/05/12 08:20] Khannea Suntzu: Huh we could be ruled by kids, what do you prefer

[2011/05/12 08:20] Rhiannon Dragoone: Sophies, yes, so maye not so radical a change, after all
[2011/05/12 08:20] Rhiannon Dragoone: Life as we know it; only more of it

[2011/05/12 08:20] Second Life: Your region will restart in 3 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.
[2011/05/12 08:21] Khannea Suntzu: Bye y'all :)

[2011/05/12 08:21] Agnes Sharple: k, everyone, thanks for a great discussion :))

[2011/05/12 08:21] Rhiannon Dragoone: I feel like I'll will be reborn in 3 min.
[2011/05/12 08:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: we have one life ? it is normal we want to make it last as we can no ?

[2011/05/12 08:21] Agnes Sharple: be happy and safe!

[2011/05/12 08:21] Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks for sharing, Agnes

[2011/05/12 08:21] Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm going to stay and see where I get sent to. For fun
[2011/05/12 08:21] Plot Tracer: ok - cool - lets wrap up there then. see u all next week! :)
[2011/05/12 08:22] Agnes Sharple: and have a awesome infinite life, those of you going for it :))
[2011/05/12 08:22] Plot Tracer: i will! :)

[2011/05/12 08:22] Agnes Sharple: yay
[2011/05/12 08:22] Ataraxia Azemus: I'll go down with the ship, since I was so late....but take care, guys :)
[2011/05/12 08:22] Agnes Sharple: be good

[2011/05/12 08:22] Rhiannon Dragoone: tc Violet

[2011/05/12 08:23] Second Life: Your region will restart in 1 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.

[2011/05/12 08:23] Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm always interested in where the boot sends me

[2011/05/12 08:23] Second Life: Your region will restart in 0 minutes and 30 seconds for maintenance.

[2011/05/12 08:23] Rhiannon Dragoone: count down, 30, 29, 28...
[2011/05/12 08:23] Plot Tracer: bye!!!!
[2011/05/12 08:23] Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat

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Our new music group

SL Left Unity - Songs for John Doe.

SL Left Unity have hosted huge musical, poetry and other events in it's 4 1/2 year existence.  In the coming weeks, another of those huge events will grace Flagg/Rizzo/Lori.  This event will be to raise money for RAWA ( http://www.rawa.org ).

Some SL Left Unity members have suggested that the Red Star Bar and our stage area is underused and it may be a good idea to open the build to musicians/ DJ's etc who want to host regular events.  the experience of the SLLu LGBTI group and their "Radically Queer" clubnight, when it runs on it's regular slot, has shown we can fill the parcel with music loving lefties.

Guthries, the superb venue for lefty musicians, has slots stretching across all timezones.  I recommend this venue to anyone wanting entertainment and sometimes a political atmosphere.  We have spoken to the owner of Guthries, Dottie Iceberg, and she is going to let musicians who can't get a suitable slot there, know about our new group and venue.  We are not a rival of this superb venture in SL - we want to promote all aspects of left culture in SL.

If you are a musician in SL/ a DJ / a SL group and would like a regular slot in the Red Star Bar - or on our stage, please contact Merriam Galaxy.  

We will also play a track or two of your stuff on our Podcasts (a new podcast will be available tomorrow).

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Trill Zapatero - Afghanistan - and fashion!

All of Trill's work in SL goes towards raising money for RAWA - or in to work highlighting social issues.

The video shows her shop where she sells SL fashion and also her Afghanistan Museum.

Please see RAWA Fundraiser info HERE

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Net Neutrality Discussion Chatlog

Monday 25 April 2011
Tim Mersereau; Geoffrey Welders; Celia Bedrosian; josjoha; Utsche Kira; Gwen Jannings; Agnes S; Sophiekittycat; Siri Vita; Plot Tracer; Ada Zaurak

Tim Mersereau: well the topic is about internet freedom; Corporatisation of the internet, freedom of speech going the way of the dinosaur. Alternate media and websites are being attacked by fascists and governments. Net Freedom and neutrality.

Remember - we speak and listen to others, comradely! :)

[07:02] Celia Bedrosian: people think internet symbolises a high standard of living
[07:02] josjoha: i'm afraid they'll launch WW3 and use that as a pretext to crush as much they can
[07:02] Tim Mersereau: come in Gwen -- we just started
[07:02] Geoffrey Welders: I doubt we'd see another world war, we're too riddled with economic dependency with other nationstates.
[07:03] josjoha: geoffrey, we are, but war with china would be a great way to suddenly cut off the flow of slave products, cut our living standards, create poverty and then buy back labor pennies on the dollar ?
[07:04] Geoffrey Welders: We wouldn't go to war with China. We owe them too much in debt.
[07:04] Tim Mersereau: lack of access to the internet is now considered an indicator of poverty in Britain -- suggests that at least there/ here its no longer an indicator of status
[07:04] Sophiekittycat: i dont understand we talk of internet or of war ?
[07:05] Tim Mersereau: the discussion topic is Corporatisation of the internet, freedom of speech going the way of the dinosaur. Alternate media and websites are being attacked by fascists and governments. Net Freedom and neutrality
[07:05] Geoffrey Welders: Internet usage is increasing, though I do not believe a lack of internet is a cause for poverty, rather it's a result of it.
[07:05] Celia Bedrosian: status -- maybe not within the UK, but worldwide definitely

[07:05] josjoha: i think we should litterally form armies to defend freedom of speech in the areas where that is threatened/opressed
[07:06] Utsche Kira: well, sl is a wonderful example of corporatisation of internet
[07:06] Tim Mersereau: fight wars jos?
[07:06] josjoha: yes, fight a war over that

[07:06] Geoffrey Welders: Form armies? I don't think that's quite what freedom of speech means. Wouldn't you be trespassing on other's freedoms by use of violence?
[07:06] Sophiekittycat: josjaha excuse me but defending one point of view of freedom by violence it is the step point toward dictature :)
[07:06] Geoffrey Welders: ^ That.
[07:06] Tim Mersereau: well freedom of thought has sparked more than one revolution
[07:07] Tim Mersereau: the right to think and gather is one of the great causes
[07:07] josjoha: take china or another dictatorial regime, and armies to defend freedom of speech of everyone should be easy to understand what that's about ?
[07:07] Gwen Jannings: Don't we have to answer a basic question first - would commercialisation of the internet exclude non-commercial use ?
[07:07] Tim Mersereau: what do others think?
[07:07] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): idk what its like where you guys are, but here, in norway the government just decided to monitor all use of internet by all users :/
[07:08] Siri Vita: In the US our biggest issue is that corporations have been granted constitutional protections as "persons". They deem that money is speech so with their immense wealth they can drown out all other voices

[07:08] Tim Mersereau: what are they looking for Agnes?
[07:08] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): terrorists :P
[07:08] Sophiekittycat: internet is commercial since beginning, and they cant remove the private and free part of the net
[07:08] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): its true
[07:08] Tim Mersereau: and terrorism is always the battle cry of those taking liberies
[07:08] Sophiekittycat: the net exist because it is a common tool, it is why corporations failed in internet
[07:08] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): yes
[07:08] Tim Mersereau: certainly big commerce has failed in SL
[07:09] Geoffrey Welders: That was a most surprising action, Siri-as previous rulings by the Supreme Court deemed corporations were not entities entitled to free speech. It's a sign of changing times.
[07:09] Gwen Jannings: if its commercial then none of it is free we all pay for access and that funds provision of service
[07:09] Sophiekittycat: but there is commerce on the net , that i know sl is a commerce
[07:09] Siri Vita: well it's largely been used as a marketing tool by most corporations. It's when they want to get involved in political speech that there's a real problem.
[07:09] josjoha: we already pay for access and corps make profit so that's a business success - however they don't control the content and reactionary ruling class would want to control that
[07:10] Tim Mersereau: what Agnes is saying is really alarming -- terrorism is a very wide label and it is always defined by the powerful

[07:10] Sophiekittycat: there is speeches that need to be controlled anyway
[07:10] Geoffrey Welders: Commercialization of the Internet is a determining factor in access and freedom of speech through its channels. If one's not able to pay for the service, one cannot be a part of the community.
[07:10] Siri Vita: I don't have an issue with commerce on the internet at all really. It's a tool, it's a way to sell goods and that's fine as long as you can avoid it
[07:10] Siri Vita: I agree the corporate control of access is a hindrance to the general population
[07:10] josjoha: that's true geoffrey, so we have to fix the economy and government corruption so ppl can earn fair money to easily get on internet & be heard that way
[07:10] Sophiekittycat: i am always scared when people talk of beheaded ruling class, mao and pol pot done, it, anyone smart enougth to read a book was considered evil jojosha
[07:11] josjoha: i don't call for them to be beheaded
[07:11] Geoffrey Welders: Access to a wide range of knowledge and communication is a considerable threat to regimes on both extremes.
[07:11] Sophiekittycat: internet actually is more a place for blogs, for free information, but what is neutrality ? allowing talibans speeches?

[07:12] Tim Mersereau: didnt the internet begin as a mixture of an academic tool and a millitary one -- not at all commercial but certainly to do with corporations
[07:12] Siri Vita: there's no such thing as a benevolent dictator. Freedom of information and access are key's to a free society
[07:12] Sophiekittycat: i enjoy to use weekipedia, to read newpapers, to see blogs, i near not use commercial stuff else when i want agood game :)
[07:12] josjoha: it began militarilly i think as a protocol that would circumvent nodes being taken out
[07:12] Tim Mersereau: and i think speach is only free if people are allowed to say disgraceful things
[07:12] Geoffrey Welders: You can't limit access as to who may speak. There are however a few exceptions: causing a riot, libel, etc...
[07:12] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): it started by a frenc lazy guy who was fed up by bringing papers around to a lot of offices so he invented html
[07:12] josjoha: then academia and then it was pushed to the public, also by idealists
[07:13] Gwen Jannings: you are mixing two things there Tom the intrnet came from DARPA a reliable data exchange netweork, WWW came from academic use CERN
[07:13] Tim Mersereau: i hope thats true Agnes
[07:13] Tim Mersereau looks wiser now

[07:13] Sophiekittycat: liberty begin and end where is someone else liberty , as a man in street dont have right to rape me , it need too a certain control on the net
[07:13] Sophiekittycat: but what wee need is an independant international agency
[07:13] Sophiekittycat: a kind of unesco of the net
[07:13] Gwen Jannings: actually Agnes he was a lazy British guy :)
[07:14] josjoha: sophie, i disagree, if we get into such large organizations they will be beyond the control of the people and hence be corrupt
[07:14] Siri Vita: to do what Sophie?
[07:14] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): ooh kk
[07:14] Sophiekittycat: more we say internet can allow all garbage more we give reasons and weapons for others to censure it
[07:14] josjoha: all garbage should be allowed, in my opinion
[07:14] Tim Mersereau gets some coffee brb
[07:14] josjoha: because none can determine what's garbage and hwat's not
[07:14] Sophiekittycat: sorry you want to allow talibans to do their speeches on the net ? spammers to be free? mafias to use it freely ? pedophiles to roam ?
[07:15] Geoffrey Welders: That is something we just have to put up with.
[07:15] Sophiekittycat: freedom is not anarchy, freedom is not right for a few to be bullies over the others
[07:15] josjoha: you can use the internet to find mafia and pedofiles, clearly taliban can use it for hwatever political opinions they have
[07:15] josjoha: in my opinion

[07:15] Geoffrey Welders: If we start targeting one group, then another, then there's overwhelming censure.
[07:15] Celia Bedrosian: you can't control the net
[07:15] Siri Vita: if people are engaged in illegal activities find them and address them through the legal system
[07:15] josjoha: i agree with geoffrey, the 'international agency' would soon be a group that bullies imho
[07:15] Siri Vita: do not shut down free speech and free access
[07:16] Sophiekittycat: the problem is which legal system ?
[07:16] josjoha: siri, right
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: Regional legal systems.
[07:16] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): agreed Siri
[07:16] Sophiekittycat: the internet is global it need then a global agency not the whaos of hundred of states
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: No.
[07:16] Siri Vita: I don't want my rights stripped in the name of security....don't protect me by keeping me "safe" from things. Go after the criminals
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: If you limit power to one group, it -will- be abused.
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: All agencies develop their own motives.
[07:16] josjoha: in my opinion it will be impossible to have any sort of global agency without it being imperial and opressive, so we do it through the nation-states and then havea great variety which is actually great and should increase freedom
[07:17] Geoffrey Welders: ^ That.

[07:17] Sophiekittycat: your rights ? my god, in life we have rules to prevent people to steal to bully to rape
[07:17] Gwen Jannings: Siri you already have your rights curtailed in the name of security
[07:17] josjoha: right sophy, and i would want to legislate laws against all sorts of global agencys to prevent them from bullying nations & people
[07:17] Siri Vita: indeed
[07:17] Sophiekittycat: we need rules on the net too, to avoid it to becausea garbage, and when the net will become a garbage ye s they will come and steal our net because they would say a free net dont work
[07:18] josjoha: but what is 'garbage' ?
[07:18] josjoha: is insulting Zeus garbage ?
[07:18] Geoffrey Welders: Indeed, what? Fox News? 4chan? Wikileaks?
[07:18] Siri Vita: and it's terrible. We are becoming more and more a surveillance society and who really should be able to deem speech in and of itself "safe"
[07:18] Sophiekittycat: illegal activities, call to violence to racism , traps by sects
[07:18] josjoha: our discussion is garbage ?
[07:18] Sophiekittycat: josjosha our discussion is not garbage
[07:18] Tim Mersereau scrolls back
[07:19] josjoha: there you go sophie: i called for a defense of freedom but yu called it violence in 3 seconds, so my voice will be cut off because its misunderstood
[07:19] Sophiekittycat: but total freedom on the net would make it be an hell
[07:19] josjoha: why sophie a hell ?

[07:19] Celia Bedrosian: i agree, Sophie
[07:19] josjoha: ppl who don’t like garbage go elsewhere
[07:19] Tim Mersereau: can i remind you of keeping it comradely
[07:19] Utsche Kira: yeah, why would it be hell?
[07:19] Tim Mersereau: dont get personal
[07:19] Celia Bedrosian: It's not only about individuals, also about society
[07:19] josjoha: tim, who ?
[07:19] Sophiekittycat: because you think that humans are kind? that they will be good citizens, if you give rights without rules and duties, you have anarchy
[07:20] Geoffrey Welders: Haha, let me show you a piece of the internet where there are no rules heavily enforced: http://boards.4chan.org/b/
[07:20] Geoffrey Welders: Forum access, free for all to post as they please. You'll find everything from pornography to breaking news, scandal and conspiracy.
[07:20] Utsche Kira: people could be kind, but they can never be good citizens - inequalities force them not to be
[07:20] josjoha: sophie, in my view a few nations do your idea and will create an agency to block 'garbage' and other nations will not, and then we will see what happens, while the voices who need to be heard can still use the freeer nations to get on teh internet
[07:21] Tim Mersereau: that was a dilemma here in sl - about freedom and rights -- and we found criminals using the space in all sorts of dreadful ways
[07:21] Sophiekittycat: it is why we need to find a balance or they will impose the balance

[07:21] Tim Mersereau: and thats without thinking of the kinds of almost routine domestic violence i have seen in many relationships
[07:22] Geoffrey Welders: Really, if we can't control ourselves someone else will.
[07:22] Sophiekittycat: josjoha, i would like internet and life to be free, but i doubt seriously in mankind kindness
[07:23] josjoha: i'd say it is the choice of ppl to be kind or not, kind ppl can come together and form nicer nations
[07:23] Geoffrey Welders: I don't doubt the kindness of strangers individually, it's just when they get together as a group they lose quite a bit of social and mental control.
[07:23] Utsche Kira: then you have a problem, if we create an environment, where ppl will benefit from being kind, they will probably be kind
[07:24] Geoffrey Welders: What you're talking about are created cultures, things that spur up whenever something happens and a group just goes along with it. When there's no direction, people will just gravitate toward anything.
[07:24] josjoha: purpose of freedom of speech is to make the opressed voice their opposition, and such voices will tend to be seen as bad/garbage/mean etc etc by the established order; to protect that speech by law you'd have to allow all manner of 'garbage' imho
[07:24] Geoffrey Welders: And really, it's pretty much whatever idea gets there first or most observable.

[07:25] Siri Vita: the way to fight speech is with speech not with censorship
[07:25] josjoha: so it's ok to denounce garbage, to call it bad and ask for behaviour, but you can't actually outlaw it without destroying that important freedom imho
[07:25] Geoffrey Welders: Freedom of speech and neutrality is not necessarily allowing everyone to speak; but for everyone to share their piece without overstepping eachother.
[07:25] Tim Mersereau: there is a balance between freedom of speech and freedom from intimidation
[07:26] Sophiekittycat: all society need rules, there is a need between freedom of one and security of another
[07:26] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): there’s a difference between freedom of speech and calls for criminal actions tho...
[07:26] josjoha: that's true, and in legal terms that's been solved by 'is it actually planning criminal activity or calling for it' then that becomes a crime
[07:26] Geoffrey Welders: If you want control, you're pretty much going to have to be okay with legitimate uses of violence. On the other hand, a lack thereof is a pretty cutthroat scenerio. Anyone's available to be a victim.
[07:27] Tim Mersereau: big point Geoffrey
[07:27] Geoffrey Welders: Thank you, Tim.
[07:27] Siri Vita: yes there is a difference Agnes. If you call for criminal action you are opening yourself to prosecution as heading a conspiracy to do whatever....
[07:27] Sophiekittycat: it is why a global net agency , with people from all parts of world scoiety would be better than states controls
[07:28] Siri Vita: and if you are engaged in a conspiracy to do something illegal, that should be prosecuted
[07:28] josjoha: sophie, why ?
[07:28] Siri Vita: but don't give a government the power to censor speech altogether because someone "might" say something bad

[07:28] Sophiekittycat: because the net is something hosted in a country and used by people from other countries
[07:28] Geoffrey Welders: Other cultures cannot simply agree on what's taboo and is not. There are different mores, few shared, and all of them directly opposing another. The UN can't even unanimously agree on everything.
[07:28] Siri Vita: what do you want this agency to do Sophie?
[07:29] Tim Mersereau: well one thing we are seeing now is states where the internet can be simply switched off
[07:29] Geoffrey Welders: What you'd see are people finding middle grounds between their left and right views.
[07:29] Sophiekittycat: when a country host nazis sites, allowed in this country as usa, but that in germany or france, selling nazis items is forbiden ?
[07:29] Geoffrey Welders: And then, both squared off against one another.
[07:29] josjoha: sophy, so then the global agency will either say it is ok or it is not
[07:30] josjoha: and that will offend either this or that people
[07:30] Geoffrey Welders: That's due to a stark reaction of history, Sophie. It is not necessarily correct what they do, but it is understandable on their behalf.
[07:30] josjoha: and remove the power of both peoples over their area and themselves
[07:30] Sophiekittycat: offending nazis is not a problem for me
[07:30] Siri Vita: I think people are actually more intruigued by forbidden ideas. If you really have the information out there and you can debunk it openly people know it's BS. Sunlight is the best disinfectant

[07:30] josjoha: right, but now the global agency decides that it is bad to offend nazi's now what
[07:30] Geoffrey Welders: You cannot limit the Nazi party, if you want freedom of speech. That goes against the motive entirely.
[07:30] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): i dont thinks its okay to offend anyone, no matter what their views are :)
[07:31] Geoffrey Welders: They have a right to voice their opposition and desire for centralized power.
[07:31] Geoffrey Welders: Just as you do to say the opposite.
[07:31] Celia Bedrosian: I disagree there
[07:31] Geoffrey Welders: You're going to offend anyone, if you talk long enough Agnes.
[07:31] josjoha: i agree geoffrey & siri, let them say what they want we just have to make the better argument and if not then too bad we loose
[07:31] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): talk and discuss is good
[07:31] Tim Mersereau: if offence becomes the criteria then we have a kinda low level -- saying anything pro gay would be considered offensive by man
[07:31] Tim Mersereau: many
[07:31] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): haha yes i guess, but not intentionally
[07:32] Tim Mersereau: i thnk part of freedom of speech is being prepared to be offended
[07:32] Geoffrey Welders: You cannot bar access to material, simply because it may be offensive; that's totally subject to individual mores.

[07:32] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): then be offended, so what? nothing happens, youre just offended :)
[07:32] Tim Mersereau: exaclty my point - sticks and stones
[07:33] josjoha: internet allows the user to choose what to see, so i'd say everyone is free to say jut about anything as far as i'm concerned
[07:33] Geoffrey Welders: Self-sensorship and restraint are the way to go, not government oversight.
[07:33] Sophiekittycat: even to insult ? to call to racism, to sexism ? to hate ?
[07:33] Geoffrey Welders: You have the power to decide what and what not to view.
[07:34] josjoha: what about secret government agencies making lists of what people say, to later hurt them somehow ? so that's not direct sensorship by open law but more sneaky
[07:34] Geoffrey Welders: Though, really, if you're going to stop there you're missing out.
[07:34] Siri Vita: individual voices and collectives of people should be free in the expression and there should be the opportunity for rebuttal. Our biggest issue isn't stupid discretited supremacist crazy groups....most people know they are stupid discretited crazy groups.....it's corporate speech and corporate money being used subversively to influence political opnion
[07:34] Siri Vita: Sophie - again, you fight speech with speech
[07:34] Siri Vita: not with censorship
[07:34] Celia Bedrosian: is that so, Siri?
[07:34] Utsche Kira: srry guys, gotta go - see ya
[07:34] Geoffrey Welders: Siri does bring up a most excellent point. MOST people do write off extremist groups as crazy and just ignore them.
[07:35] Sophiekittycat: corporate speech ? everyone do lobbying , the pro lifes the creationnists, the pro gay, the pro what you want
[07:35] Sophiekittycat: if you want total free speech corporates are right to speak too ?
[07:35] Geoffrey Welders: No.

[07:35] josjoha: of course corps can talk too
[07:35] Geoffrey Welders: Corporations are not entities, they are manufactured products of the economy.
[07:36] Siri Vita: I think there should be rules for disclosure
[07:36] josjoha: effectively its the owner / management talking, no ?
[07:36] Geoffrey Welders: Money does not add up to having more freedom over someone else.
[07:36] Siri Vita: I don't believe in censorship....rather full transparency
[07:36] Tim Mersereau: what about the freedom from exploitation and the need to protect the vulnerable? as a good society we have the obligation to do that - and that cannot be a responsibility of corporations
[07:37] Geoffrey Welders: Who's vulnerable and exploited? What guidelines would their be to define those events?
[07:37] josjoha: censorship against calling for criminal activity is already dangerously high level of sensorship, but i'm ok with that as long as its not expanded too much
[07:37] Sophiekittycat: it seems that most want a society with just freedom but not duty to protect the weak
[07:37] Tim Mersereau: this is where we have to think about the protection of children
[07:37] Siri Vita: depends what you're protecting them from Tim. If you're protecting them from something illegal then yes....law enforcement should enforce the law
[07:37] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): well at least, with the internet and the freedom of speech its all more open, we can easily pick out the ones with fascist ideas
[07:37] Tim Mersereau: indeed
[07:37] josjoha: the weak are protected by having the freedom to say what they want
[07:37] Geoffrey Welders: Indeed, Jos-because eventually you run into grey areas of 'criminal activity'.
[07:37] Tim Mersereau: and just because its on the internet doesn’t make it become permissible
[07:38] Celia Bedrosian: It's not just about fascism, though
[07:38] Tim Mersereau: so hate crimes are still hate crimes when they are online
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: sorry jojosha thoses who are heard usually are not the weak
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: if you are weak usually you need help
[07:38] Celia Bedrosian: There will soon be a time that being 'normal' is a crime
[07:38] Geoffrey Welders: Children are an entirely different scenario all together. They have to learn and mature up to a certain point, before they are prepared to take part within the community.

[07:38] josjoha: how about 'its illegal to undermine government' yet most political opinions would like to re-arrange society in a big way and you could call that 'undermining' and get them, so its already dangerously high
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: and i am sick of people who online say i can be a jerk and asshole because it is the net
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: we transform the net in a jungle
[07:39] josjoha: there are a lot of people in the world, most use the internet for good i think
[07:39] Siri Vita: So you would give governments the right to censor everyone on the internet so that you never have to suffen someone being an asshole?
[07:39] josjoha: or trivial stuff
[07:39] Geoffrey Welders: Define good, Jos.
[07:39] Sophiekittycat: in a society if there is no rules to protect the rights of everyone, the strongs the predator will have all rights, it is what give total freedom, the rule of a few
[07:40] Siri Vita: why can't you just call them an asshole and leave everyone's free speech rights alone
[07:40] Geoffrey Welders: You can totally place people on ignore, you're entitled to do that.
[07:40] Tim Mersereau: i am not talking about children being shocked -- i am talking about organised crime networks who make money out of their abuse
[07:40] Geoffrey Welders: You may even speak with people and try to convince them to do the same, but you cannot force them.
[07:40] Sophiekittycat: welcome in anarchy and rule of the strongs, we talk of justice and finalyy what we promote it is rule of the strongs ?
[07:40] josjoha: sophy, i'm seeing your censorship system as an oppressive mechanism
[07:41] Sophiekittycat: josjosha and you when you talk of using violence ?
[07:41] Geoffrey Welders: Children's access DOES need to be monitored by their parents at ALL times. Being right there with them.
[07:41] Tim Mersereau: good point Sophie

[07:41] josjoha: talk is talk rather than violence
[07:41] josjoha: that's why it should be as free as possible, because that empowers the weak (who have no weapons/numbers/strength maybe)
[07:41] Geoffrey Welders: Parents totally have their own rights to determine what is and is not appropriate for their children.
[07:42] Geoffrey Welders: And it is a parent's obligation to protect a child, while it's on the Internet.
[07:42] Tim Mersereau: not at all Geoffrey -- that works where people know how to parent -- conception doesnt teach them that
[07:42] josjoha: sophy, i talk of protecting ppl who have their right to speech attacked by other violent groups, such as governments
[07:42] Geoffrey Welders: That's just the way it is, Tim. Some parents just aren't meant for the role. Can't be helped, but they'd learn.
[07:42] josjoha: that will take violence in some cases, because you don't stop a death-squad with a piece of paper and a poem, you stop them with an ambush and bullets and whatnot
[07:42] Geoffrey Welders: Or, they'd be punished for it.
[07:42] Tim Mersereau is not so sure
[07:43] Geoffrey Welders: Can't be helped, but you can't take that away from parents who -are- capable.
[07:43] Sophiekittycat: jojosha the right to say all and everything is a danger too, because some weak minded people can finally think that they need to kill all the black they will see
[07:43] Sophiekittycat: or that all women are just sex toys
[07:43] Celia Bedrosian: Agreed, Sophie
[07:44] Sophiekittycat: sorry the right to see what you want is a violence too

[07:44] Celia Bedrosian: good points
[07:44] josjoha: these armies i want will protect absolutely any opinion, so they would be fully objective; they'd protect nazi speech as well as ghandi speech, from the death squads and stuff like that (hard repression)
[07:44] Geoffrey Welders: Weak minded people, just who are they? I imagine everyone would say they think for themselves, and it's likely more true than it seems.
[07:44] Sophiekittycat: because it is the strobgest that will be heard the most not the weak or the smart
[07:44] Tim Mersereau is with Sophie on that one
[07:44] Sophiekittycat: people listen more at demagogists as tea party or hitler not at luther king or gandhi
[07:45] josjoha: i say sophy that you set up an opression system, a bully system, which will protect the abusers very soon because it will become corrupt
[07:45] josjoha: because it is too big to control by people, and it is a monoculture
[07:45] Sophiekittycat: if there is no rule, on the net hitler or tea party or kkk will have more voice than gandi or luther king
[07:45] Geoffrey Welders: Let's take a moment and review how cultural laws and mores are set up. This is a quote by Warren Ellis, artist and social commentator: "You want to know about voting. I'm here to tell you about voting. Imagine you're locked in a huge underground nightclub filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that rape pit bulls for fun. And you ain't allowed out until you all vote on what you're going to do tonight. You like to put your feet up and watch "Republican Party Reservation". They like to have sex with normal people using knives, guns and brand-new sexual organs that you did not know existed. So you vote for television, and everyone else, as far as the eye can see, votes to fuck you with switchblades. That's voting. You're welcome."

[07:45] josjoha: why sophy ?
[07:45] josjoha: there would be a www.ghandi.org a www.nazi.com and a www.lutherking.net, and then its up to the people
[07:46] Sophiekittycat: why ? because as is mankind, when you aim at what is easy , at the bad feelings, you have more success when aiming at brain, an morality
[07:46] josjoha: that's teh nature of speech in contrast to the nature of violence/arms which say 'we are with more so you do as we say and say as we say'
[07:46] Sophiekittycat: why do you thinnk that reality shows have better audience than documentaries ?
[07:46] Siri Vita: The tea party is withering away as we speak. Their ideas don't work in the real world. People are seeing how cruel those ideas really are and it's freedome of speech that highlights how wrong they are.
[07:46] Geoffrey Welders: What are you basing that off of, Sophie?
[07:46] Sophiekittycat: why do you think that gangsta rap calling to violence and women as sex sluts have better success than poetry
[07:46] Geoffrey Welders: Marketing.
[07:47] Siri Vita: exactly

[07:47] Siri Vita: Sohie, you want to censor music too?
[07:47] Geoffrey Welders: There really wasn't much opposition to counter the hype when it first came up.
[07:47] josjoha: sophie, so you want to enforce poetry and outlaw gangster rap ?
[07:47] Sophiekittycat: the marketing is based on human mind, if poetry was easier to put on market than reallity show we would know it already
[07:47] Tim Mersereau: practically there has to be some forms of censorship wherever from
[07:47] Sophiekittycat: personnaly i would outlaw it, because you dont know the ravages of gangsta rap in boys mind
[07:47] Tim Mersereau: as there has to be some form of law enforcement
[07:48] Geoffrey Welders: Indeed, there must be.
[07:48] josjoha: sophy, i don't know why ppl have such bad taste and choose violence, but oppression of free speech certainly in the west i don't see that as an answer
[07:48] Geoffrey Welders: Free speech IS violent.
[07:48] Celia Bedrosian: because the system in the west is irreversible, Jos
[07:48] Sophiekittycat: sorry have you be raped jojosha ? me i have be twice, and once was by boys completely in their inner trip of women are just sluts
[07:48] Sophiekittycat: then you can see danger of free speech
[07:48] josjoha: Sophie, i'd say you would be a great mother and i agree to outlaw it for your child as well, but to outlaw wider speech ... i'd say no, let's form good nations and throw the bad people out ?
[07:48] Siri Vita: Sophie would you have us all live in your cleansed and happy version of disneyland?
[07:49] Sophiekittycat: free speech don’t protect the weak it give just more possibilities to bully the weak
[07:49] Celia Bedrosian: It's not just about that Siri
[07:49] Celia Bedrosian: it'sabout the development in the 21st century
[07:49] Sophiekittycat: siri you want us to live in conan the barbarian where you make respect rules by a sword ?

[07:49] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): good point Celia
[07:49] Sophiekittycat: or you want the good old nra way , to use your gun in anarchy ?
[07:49] josjoha: sophy, i don't know if i was raped, but trust me i've been abused all my life and still in a way - denying free speech could soon be turned against you so you can't talk of being raped since its offending someone or something
[07:49] Siri Vita: who decides what speech is dangerous?
[07:49] josjoha: free speech protects you
[07:49] Celia Bedrosian: The future will
[07:50] Sophiekittycat: sorry or we have rules or we fall in an extrem anarchy or dictarure
[07:50] Sophiekittycat: free speach protect only bullies
[07:50] Siri Vita: if you call for something illegal, if you engage is something illegal, that should be prosecuted. But adults are adults and should be responsible for their actions and the consequences
[07:50] Siri Vita: I don't want to hear that a song made someone do something
[07:50] josjoha: the rule of the sword will be that everyone will say exactly what the big boss says - no freedom ofspeech or thought at all
[07:50] Siri Vita: that's not an adequate defence
[07:50] josjoha: back to the dark ages
[07:50] Plot Tracer: Sorry - I am in this late - and perhaps u have covered this already - but "free speech" does not give you the freedom to abuse..?

[07:51] Siri Vita: and you're allowing criminals to make excuses if you say music or a website drove them to something
[07:51] Sophiekittycat: i talk of completely free speech, for me free speech is one that respect people with a minimum of rules to allow to live in society
[07:51] josjoha: sophie, you're free to educate your children and live with ppl who are decent
[07:51] Tim Mersereau: i think that’s the main point Plot - freedom from intimidation must be a higher law than freedom of speech
[07:51] josjoha: and use free speech to accuse your rapists and have them prosecuted
[07:51] Plot Tracer: yes tim
[07:52] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): exactly Tim
[07:52] josjoha: and call government bad & police stupid for not protecting you
[07:52] Celia Bedrosian: Josjoha, what will the world look like after another 100 years of 'freedom'?
[07:52] josjoha: and so on: it gives you a voice, G.d knows how many victims never coudl say anything beacause there was no 'free speech'
[07:52] Plot Tracer: and i would further that by adding - freedom of speech does not give you the freedom to abuse groups - whether they are gender groups or ethnical etc.
[07:52] Sophiekittycat: jojosha you are the first to call to weapons and violence, but you think all cops and government are evil
[07:52] Sophiekittycat: sorry but a society need rules and cops
[07:52] josjoha: celia, with the kind of freedom we now have, anarchist markets, its probably a stone age world again
[07:53] Celia Bedrosian: Ice age, josjoha
[07:53] josjoha: but that's a wider issue then speech
[07:53] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): i dont think government or cops can protect anyone from being raped or abused either

[07:53] josjoha: right
[07:53] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): thats not the way to go
[07:54] Tim Mersereau: folks i have to leave in a sec -- its a stunning afternoon and the shore is beginning to call - i will pass Plot a nc of the discussion so far for blogging purposes if thats ok
[07:54 AM] josjoha Resident: speech is a very specific issue, can't say because it is largely unregulated therefore everything is unregulated - on the contrary: freedom of speech is an achievement of law & order itself
[07:54 AM] Plot Tracer: i agree Agnes - i think it comes to what we both seem to always come to in these discussions - education... and more than that - environment. I think that an environment where "freedom of speech" means the right to hate speech, then society will be violent. And that, quite honestly is where I think we are atm
[07:54 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes education..
[07:55 AM] josjoha Resident: i'm pro-hate speech
[07:55 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: a society should promote education , equality, freedom exist only by having limits
[07:55 AM] josjoha Resident: that is, i'm against it as taste but don't want to outlaw it
[07:55 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: a society should protect the weak before to allow hate
[07:55 AM] Tim Mersereau waves, grabs his thick jumper and leaves
[07:55 AM] josjoha Resident: freedom of speech causes a great increase in equality, because everyone can at least voice their opinion
[07:56 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes Josjoha

[07:56 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha you are a man , noone will ever contest your right to be equal
[07:56 AM] Plot Tracer: Well - I disagree, Josh. I feel speech can be destructive to individuals and groups - and if destructive, should be legislated for. I believe in this society, to change some norms, sometimes legislation is needed.
[07:56 AM] josjoha Resident: that's fantasy sophie
[07:56 AM] josjoha Resident: they oppressed me all the way
[07:57 AM] Siri Vita: communities have the power to come together and fight back with speech, to shun, to marginalize, to outlaw any outward act that would rise from said offensive "speech" but the speech itself should be allowed
[07:57 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: but for women it is a constant fight and the right for talibans to have free speech make me vomit
[07:57 AM] Plot Tracer: Today, I was out campaigning in RL in the elections and two women approached the table we had set up.
[07:57 AM] josjoha Resident: so then very soon you will loose your speech sophie
[07:57 AM] josjoha Resident: because free speech law is there for you, but once you start with sensorship its soon you to be sensored
[07:57 AM] josjoha Resident: don't you fear at least that chance ?
[07:58 AM] josjoha Resident: what would you do to prevent that from occurring, and how likely is that to succeed ?

[07:58 AM] josjoha Resident: how would you prevent the global censorship bureau to start sensoring abused women globally after, say, 250 years of that system running ?
[07:58 AM] Plot Tracer: I didnt realise one of them was "transgender" until someone went by and started shouting insults at her. She looked frightened. But I feel that sort of hate speech SHOULD be legislated for. This person was assaulted by hate speech in public. We told the hater to get to fu*k and he went. But it was horrible to witness.
[07:59 AM] Agnes Sharple: thats not use of free speech, thats abuse of free speech
[07:59 AM] Plot Tracer: yes Agnes
[07:59 AM] Plot Tracer: but the same happens online
[07:59 AM] Agnes Sharple: tell me about it
[08:00 AM] josjoha Resident: no she's at about 50 meter
[08:00 AM] Agnes Sharple: not anymore
[08:00 AM] josjoha Resident: true
[08:00 AM] Plot Tracer: there are the likes of the BNP and exteme organisations that post online in forums etc. People have the right to be free of hate speech and hate directed at them whether it is on the net or in the street.
[08:01 AM] Agnes Sharple: well, to me freedom of speech does not include the freedom to abuse with speech
[08:01 AM] Agnes Sharple: its a difference
[08:02 AM] Siri Vita: that's just flat our harassment

[08:02 AM] josjoha Resident: i agree and that was never the intention of those laws, but the problem is that if you allow for extensive censorship of 'hate' you run a big risk of cutting off voices of opposition
[08:02 AM] Siri Vita: harassment shouldn't be allowed, that much is true
[08:02 AM] Agnes Sharple: where to draw the line of harassment?
[08:02 AM] Siri Vita: it's all about what someone is actually doing
[08:03 AM] Siri Vita: i don't think speech, in and of itself should be called into question. Words should never be legislated. Actions should be
[08:03 AM] josjoha Resident: different nations may have different answers, some definitely sencor right now, i'd say that multitude of 'solutions' is worth a lot
[08:03 AM] Siri Vita: if you're in the street and harassing someone a police officer should be able to ticket you and haul you off.
[08:03 AM] Plot Tracer: well, Siri - they weren’t physically abusing her - and they were in a public space, giving an opinion of this person's gender, albeit a disgusting one - but in a public space, are we free to say what we wish?
[08:03 AM] Geoffrey Welders: The only thing you can do, to combat free speech you don't like, is to use your own words.

[08:03 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, i agree with that
[08:04 AM] Siri Vita: it's the communities job to come together and protect the weak
[08:04 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes we are still free to say what we wish Plot, but do we acceppt it, thats another thing
[08:04 AM] Siri Vita: I think you did the right think Plot and that person moved on
[08:04 AM] Siri Vita: I think it's extraordinarity dangerous to say it would be ok to haul someone off to jail for saying something to someone in an open public place
[08:04 AM] Agnes Sharple: because that was a personal attack and not really free speech
[08:05 AM] Siri Vita: I think that gives governments too much power. So we have to police ourselves or we're asking for trouble
[08:05 AM] Plot Tracer: what if the person in the public space said something anti-Semitic?
[08:05 AM] Geoffrey Welders: If we're not going to do it, someone else will.
[08:05 AM] Agnes Sharple: i am free to call anyone here an idiot, but if i say any of you are idiots because you are gay or men or black, it would be wrong
[08:05 AM] Agnes Sharple whispers: not that i think any of you are!!!
[08:06 AM] Plot Tracer: :)
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: of course it's wrong and it should be called out
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: by the community
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: I don't want the police of government to have that power
[08:06 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Hmm, what about... All idiots are men, but not all men are idiots?
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: *or not of
[08:06 AM] Agnes Sharple: hehe
[08:06 AM] josjoha Resident: at some point speech can become violence, for example using big loudspeakers and aiming them at the neighbour and yelling insults 24/7
[08:06 AM] Plot Tracer: is some abuse more acceptable than others - on the net or in the public sphere where-ever?

[08:07 AM] Agnes Sharple: no
[08:07 AM] Siri Vita: that is harassment and disturbing the peace and can be prosecuted
[08:07 AM] Plot Tracer: ok
[08:07 AM] josjoha Resident: i agree
[08:07 AM] josjoha Resident: i've tried to use a cut-off point (in my constitution) where it is "hard to avoid" by the targeted person
[08:07 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Hmm... I believe the abuse contractually agreed upon and possibly paid for is agreeable.
[08:08 AM] Siri Vita: Plot do you really want to hand over the freedom to decide what is ok and not ok to say over to the police and government to decide and enforce?
[08:08 AM] josjoha Resident: it’s very easy to avoid hate websites for example
[08:08 AM] josjoha Resident: but not so easy to avoid such a loudspeaker
[08:09 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, geoffrey and me seem to be roughly on the same liberal line on this
[08:09 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Really, I think there's a time and place for everything. It matters if speech is disruptive.
[08:09 AM] Plot Tracer: another thing. An MP (member of parliament) in the UK is trying to legislate about the body image websites and magazines in the UK portray to young people. This is a sexism issue, as more than not, this affects women more than men (but it still effects men) - thoughts?
[08:09 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Could you define that a bit more?
[08:09 AM] josjoha Resident: what is 'body image websites' ?
[08:10 AM] Plot Tracer: The body image some websites sell to people - let’s take as an extreme - Playboy - who are now selling to pre-teens for example.

[08:10 AM] Geoffrey Welders: They are? Oh, uh-yikes.
[08:10 AM] josjoha Resident: 8 yo ?
[08:10 AM] Agnes Sharple: playboy are selling to pre teens??
[08:10 AM] Agnes Sharple: wtf
[08:10 AM] Plot Tracer: yes - they sell merchandise to them
[08:10 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Too far, really-but, anywho.
[08:11 AM] josjoha Resident: i'm against that because those children are before the age of consent and later in life could regret what adults pushed them to
[08:11 AM] Agnes Sharple: thats disgusting, its like those tees i saw 10 year old girls wearing some years ago, saying "pornstar"
[08:11 AM] Geoffrey Welders: So, are you saying... Pornography or the selling point of what is conceived as a perfect body?
[08:12 AM] Plot Tracer: Go to page ten of this magazine (written by a friend of mine in rl) -

http://scottishsocialistvoice.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/voice372.pdf

[08:12 AM] josjoha Resident: so speech would work differently for children and adults, which makes sense since the argument for free speech is to voice the opressed, and for such a political voice having any meaning it generally needs an adult or there would be enough adults to do that
[08:13 AM] Plot Tracer: so- do we police the children on the net - or police the net, josjoha?
[08:13 AM] josjoha Resident: so if children speech is less protected that leaves room for adults to raise their children in proper behaviour ?
[08:13 AM] Siri Vita: yes I think restricting children access is absolutely fine. Not just ok but necessary
[08:13 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Children just aren't ready to experience the wide field of free speech, but certainly we should give them the tools and enough experience to fully engage in it.
[08:13 AM] Agnes Sharple: i think so too Siri
[08:13 AM] Siri Vita: not just what they can access but who can access them
[08:13 AM] Siri Vita: but that's children. i don't think adults should be treated like children

[08:13 AM] josjoha Resident: i'd say we police the ppl behind it, like policing the burglar rather then the street itself
[08:14 AM] Plot Tracer: how do we do this, Siri (i ask honestly as someone with a 14 year old boy who has as much if not more knowledge of the net than i do!)
[08:14 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Though, I think the ones who should overseer children are the parents themselves or other caretakers (school.)
[08:14 AM] josjoha Resident: in reality most children wouldn’t even complain about the worst abuses, they wouldn't dare and even sing the praises of their abuse so pressured
[08:14 AM] josjoha Resident: sad but true i guess (?)
[08:14 AM] Agnes Sharple: by talking to him and talking about all the different websites maybe?
[08:15 AM] Agnes Sharple: there is a filter as well
[08:15 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Children just need to have an adult with them, while viewing any material.
[08:15 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Err... Over the internet.
[08:15 AM] Plot Tracer: so - Geoff - what about those children who are not parented properly - or those who are hardly parented at all? As a teacher as well, I can only police my own classroom - not the childs smartphone or internet access at home.
[08:16 AM] Siri Vita: There are parental protections available and you have to monitor his computer use. Now he's 14.....you can't protect him from the whole world forever. It's a fear that parents have always had but it's the way you've raised him that'll make the difference

[08:16 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Sucks for them, Plot; but, that's all there is. Hopefully they'll find some better mentor.
[08:16 AM] Geoffrey Welders: These children that don't have anyone else, they have to save themselves if no one else is willing.
[08:16 AM] Siri Vita: could you ever police all the children of the world? What they were doing after school, what they were talking about in groups away from adult supervision? why is the internet so different
[08:17 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Still, you can't take away the rights of good parents to police their own children.
[08:17 AM] Plot Tracer: i'm not into "sucks for them." I am into societal solutions. I see poor impoverished children every day of my working life - I cant accept that the fact they have parents who cant cope means they are outside solutions.
[08:17 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Then get them involved in community activities.
[08:17 AM] Plot Tracer: do you do this, Geoff?
[08:17 AM] Geoffrey Welders: I don't have children.
[08:17 AM] Agnes Sharple: be a good role model

[08:17 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, i thought maybe it works to allow children the option to either be in government care or with their parents
[08:17 AM] Plot Tracer: but there are children where u live, no?
[08:18 AM] Siri Vita: what would you suggest for those kids Plot?
[08:18 AM] Geoffrey Welders: But, if parents are fit to look after their own children, they should be punished accordingly.
[08:18 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Parents should be held liable for their child's actions.
[08:18 AM] Celia Bedrosian: I disagree
[08:18 AM] josjoha Resident: i thought children being victims, if its bad enough maybe some would escape to safety
[08:19 AM] Agnes Sharple: parents are liable for their childrens actions
[08:19 AM] josjoha Resident: and if nobody can force them back to their parents, they don't run the risk of the smooth talking parents getting control back of the child they abuse
[08:19 AM] Plot Tracer: I think the net needs to have certain safeguards. Not infringing freespeech - but perhaps something not unlike the SL solution - presenting some sort of identifier for access to "porn" or identified "hate sites"
[08:19 AM] Agnes Sharple: there are filters who do that Plot
[08:19 AM] josjoha Resident: you want that on the internet itself plot ?
[08:20 AM] josjoha Resident: i'd say its the parents responsibility, and for grown up ppl its their own
[08:20 AM] Agnes Sharple: which*
[08:20 AM] Siri Vita: well considering it would require self identification, I think you'd cut down a lot of people looking at that stuff LOL
[08:21 AM] Agnes Sharple: hehehe yes
[08:21 AM] josjoha Resident: i suppose there is 3 locations for such a filter: source site, internet routing system, end user

[08:21 AM] Plot Tracer: Jos - I think it should be a worldwide legal framework - which allows people to set up sites on what they want, but access on sexual and "hate" content should be limited to those wioth adult status in the countries the sites are available in . i feel it is more pressing we deal with the enclosure of the web. What do u think of FB/ Twitter etc - and the coporatisation of the net?
[08:22 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, i'm against any sort of supra-national system
[08:22 AM] josjoha Resident: twitter is fine by me tho i barely know what it is
[08:22 AM] Siri Vita: can you talk a little more about "adult status" Plot? Does that mean that you have an ID that follows you around the internet beyind your IP address?
[08:22 AM] Plot Tracer: does web 2.0 restrict the net? does it impair freedom of speech?
[08:23 AM] Agnes Sharple: i think nobody should access those sites unless they at least 17
[08:23 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, how do you plan to keep that supra-national legal system from not being a corrupt imperial government outside of all reasonable 'common man' influence ?
[08:23 AM] Agnes Sharple: at least*
[08:23 AM] Celia Bedrosian: (tc)
[08:23 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, what's web 2.0 ?

[08:24 AM] Plot Tracer: no siri. I mean that the site - if identified by an agreed national body, must add the safeguards. Web 2.0 are the sites and platforms like facebook and twitter and second life that are governed by corporations
[08:24 AM] josjoha Resident: ah ok, well since ppl choose to use it and others are free to make alternatives ... maybe there should be some investment in alternatives to make the market more vibrant
[08:25 AM] josjoha Resident: if its a real monopoly then it may have to be cut up though
[08:25 AM] Plot Tracer: I agree Agnes that there should be an age limit... but age limits do not necessarily mean that the person has the education to deal with sexism or racism etc... and the sometimes sophisticatedways these are sold as "lifestyle" or religious etc choices.
[08:26 AM] josjoha Resident: i'm against such sensorship
[08:26 AM] josjoha Resident: or ID system
[08:27 AM] josjoha Resident: and because it already creeps to 'hate' pretty soon offending Zeus may be called hate ?
[08:27 AM] Agnes Sharple: thats true and thats why schools needs new subjects now, like information and internet
[08:27 AM] josjoha Resident: also any kindof secure ID system hurts anonymity, but anonymity is a great asset for freedom of speech
[08:28 AM] josjoha Resident: with anonymity ppl dare talk much more, for example sophie said she was raped, i doubt most rape victims would say that if they where not anonymous
[08:28 AM] josjoha Resident: the better anonymity is, the harder for governments to maintain lists of dissidents to hurt or even murder
[08:28 AM] Agnes Sharple: why not Josjoha?

[08:28 AM] Agnes Sharple: depends on where in the world they live id say
[08:29 AM] josjoha Resident: agnes, shame, guilt, privacy, etc, it's the reality ?
[08:29 AM] Siri Vita: anonymity is so necessary in emerging democracies. It's hard enough to get people in certina countries up on proxies using anonymizers
[08:29 AM] Agnes Sharple: id say it would be a lot more shameful for the rapist
[08:30 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, i agree, anonymity & free speech both have to be protected as much we can, to protect meaningful democracy & dissent
[08:30 AM] Plot Tracer: ok - I am very conscious of the time... and I feel this conversation could go on for hours... Could we all perhaps write one finishing sentence - kinda where you think you stand on this? Do you feel the net is being taken over by the corporations, squeezing out the individuals? Do you think the net should be policed? Do you think Education is the key? By the way - do you mind if I post the chatlog to www.slleftunity? Ihave added an article I wrote a couple of years back to the blog about the net and covers neutrality etc. I'll also add the article by my friend about porn etc. as reference.
[08:30 AM] josjoha Resident: so that precludes both censorship agencies of any kind, and serious ID systems outside end-user control like a filter they installed because they like
[08:30 AM] Agnes Sharple: i think education is the key
[08:31 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh and there are more safe browsers, like TOR if anyone fear for their privacy on the net

[08:32 AM] Plot Tracer: My own belief is that like most things, I think education is the key, but I feel safeguards must be placed until society is in a place where it means everyone can make informed choices about what they access, including children.
[08:32 AM] Siri Vita: I think the community needs to police itself, call out and fight back against abuse and hate speech on the internet. I think corporations should be made to operate with transparancy and I think governments and police departments should enforce the laws, not infringe on speech.
[08:32 AM] josjoha Resident: i think internet freedom in the Netherlands is really great right now, but since capitalism (free markets in everything including money causing tyrannical businesses) gravitates to huge private monopoly control of everything, the internet would eventually be no exception; but it is a wider struggle against that tyrannical business/finance model, free speech & anonymity should be protected at nearly all cost even going to war for it.
[08:32 AM] Agnes Sharple: well, i dont think anyone yet has the knowledge to deal with the informationflow on the net :/
[08:32 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, its fine if you post chatlog, i'd be honored if you posted it
[08:34 AM] josjoha Resident: nice discussion of the hard points
[08:34 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes great discussion
[08:35 AM] josjoha Resident: geoffrey & siri might make interesting recruits for the freedom of speech/assembly army hehe : )
[08:35 AM] Siri Vita: Thanks for a great discussion everyone. I think we all want to see a kinder world I just worry about giving up the right to decide what that means to the government and police.
[08:36 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Hah, oh you!
[08:36 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, u UK ?

[08:36 AM] Agnes Sharple: yay!
[08:36 AM] Siri Vita: no US
[08:36 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh and there are free unfuckitup tees over here, make sure to grab one before leaving!:))
[08:37 AM] Plot Tracer: I think it is a difficult subject - and I have a lot to learn. Thanks all for a very interesting convo (even tho i was only hear for the second half! ) :)

[08:37 AM] Plot Tracer: yes - and remember to watch the vid of unfuckitup - I have it on my blog i think...
[08:37 AM] Plot Tracer: yes... http://plotsplot.blogspot.com
[08:37 AM] Siri Vita: It is a difficult subject. These are the biggest questions of our age. I think we've had a really great discussion here.
[08:38 AM] Plot Tracer: ok... next discussion is on Thursday
[08:38 AM] Siri Vita: ok I have to run. Thanks all. bye!
[08:38 AM] Plot Tracer: see u siri
[08:38 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh wow allready?
[08:38 AM] josjoha Resident: i think this is FRench revolution stuff tho
[08:39 AM] josjoha Resident: we have to solve government corruption, ecological abuse, how to have a human society without corporate tyranny & war
[08:39 AM] josjoha Resident: French / American revolution already solved many legal issues like this

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RAWA Fundraiser

http://www.rawa.org/

SLLU are running a fundraiser for RAWA (see website). It has been suggested that we add any funds we possess over L$50000 to what is raised at the event (at the moment we have L$81,946 - which would mean L$31,946 going to the organisation - £73 or $113). Anyone with any objections to this, should contact SLLU Alecto.

For details of the event, please contact Siri Vita.

ABOUT RAWA HERE

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