Tuesday, 29 March 2011

Recent Posts Menu

Sl Left unity Monday discussion 28th March 2011 - The Economic Crisis and the Austerity Measures - who should pay?  HERE

SL Left Unity discussion 21st March 2011 "Nukes and Energy" HERE

Plot's Conversations:
With Ilsa Hesse on socialism etc HERE

With Agnes Sharple on "a place for Left discussionHERE

SL Left Unity discussion 14th March 2011 "Left response to a No fly zone" HERE


Protests and hard questions for the President of the World Bank - HERE

KIDZ - video by Sophia Rossen HERE

LEFT BANKER on making the rich pay! - HERE

"Speak to me your song of greed," Redzone and the Economics of Fear - Scylla Rhiadra - HERE

Scylla's follow up article -Son of Redzone: How to Protect Your Privacy, Why You Still NEED to Protect It, and Why the Landed Gentry Are So Annoyed at You.  HERE

SPOOKS IN SECOND LIFE - Private Security Contractor Pitched Second LifePsyOps Campaign to US Military by Kanomi-   HERE

Anti-Austerity measures MEETING ON MONDAY 28th Feb HERE

Demonstration in support of the people of Libya - HERE

Find your way around our parcels - HERE

Help needed - HERE

What's to be done about Unity (Station)? Plot Tracer - HERE

Proposal for SLUncut - HERE

On SL Marxists, Networks and Platforms - Plot Tracer - HERE

Tempests, Teapots, Death Threats and Commie Parasites by Scylla Rhiadra HERE

Anonymous Revolution Online HERE


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Monday, 28 March 2011

SL Left Unity Discussion - The Economic Crises and Austerity Measures -

What an interesting start to discussions about the current economic system! Those present covered everything from the environment through religion and the class system. It has been suggested we narrow the parameters in a further discussion of the economic mess that has been left by bankers for another session.

This issue is the single-most important issue the left should be talking about. This crisis has led to revolutions through out the middle east and unrest across the west, including the heartlands of the USA and UK. And the crisis and the solutions we put forward to replace the austerity measures created by the ruling class political representatives and billionaires who control them will have a massive impact on how we share out the worlds resources.

Present: Anon; Kenya Warden; Millay Freschi; Notharess Dragovar; Dex Moleno; Iblis Aluveaux; Laze Babenco; umsultan Tearfall; Peter Feldragonne; Sophiekittycat Resident; DavidMaku Resident; Temba Resident; Iblis Aluveaux; Plot Tracer

[2011/03/28 05:52] IM: Plot Tracer: SL Left Unity discussion beginning at 6am - Austerity Measures - Who should pay? No to cuts in services? Some cuts? Tax the Rich? Close tax loopholes? Are we all in this together? Are the people who caused this crisis at the forefront of patching it up? Is now the time to talk about alternatives to Capitalism? Will Capitalism fall in the next generation? Come, let people know your thoughts. But listen, comradely to others! Please contact Plot Tracer for LM

[2011/03/28 06:03] Anon: the economy probably just depresses people
[2011/03/28 06:03] Plot Tracer: i think so
[2011/03/28 06:04] Plot Tracer: ok - perhaps more people will arrive late (it sometimes happens :)
[2011/03/28 06:05] Plot Tracer: - this is a chance for people to discuss the austerity measures and solutions to the economic crisis
[2011/03/28 06:05] Plot Tracer: I think it is interesting that in the Netherlands, the Government has stepped in and said that bankers should NOT have bonuses - and any they have recieved since 2008 should be handed back
[2011/03/28 06:06] Plot Tracer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/27/dutch-bankers-bonuses-axed-by-people-power?mobile-redirect=false

[2011/03/28 06:06] Kenya Warden: what does austerity mean?
[2011/03/28 06:07] Plot Tracer: Austerity measures - making us live on little in order to pay back what the bankers lost

[2011/03/28 06:08] Notharess Dragovar: Nice to know that Some people take action againsts the Banks corruption
[2011/03/28 06:09] Plot Tracer: another thing here in the uk, is the revelation today that even before most of the government measures have been put in to place, there has been an average pay-cut across the country of 5%
Laze Babenco: halloe Plot, I'm not sure i'll be able to folllow a so serious discussion because of my english but i would like to try .. could u send me the tp please?
[2011/03/28 06:10] Anon: 5% pay cuts.. in the uk?
[2011/03/28 06:11] Plot Tracer: yes Anon - here is a link - http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9436000/9436026.stm

[2011/03/28 06:12] Plot Tracer: the purchasing power of the "bottom" 50% has fallen to levels of the 1920s here
[2011/03/28 06:12] Notharess Dragovar: What does a pay-cut of 5% mean?what are the reasolts of this?
[2011/03/28 06:12] Plot Tracer: have a read at the link. the results is less purchasing power - and in fact, because of the astronomical price of fuel in the UK, many people are losing their homes.

[2011/03/28 06:13] SLLU Donation Hat: Thanks for the 250L$, Comrade millay Freschi

[2011/03/28 06:13] Notharess Dragovar: Fuel is a Dieing resource...

[2011/03/28 06:14] Plot Tracer: yes notharess. thanks for the donation Millay!

[2011/03/28 06:14] Anon: caused by inflation, and people afraid of losing their jobs, so they dont ask for raises
[2011/03/28 06:15] Dex Moleno: well as someone who is in the next act of this scenario those paycuts will affect everything people will have less money to spent or will be afraid to spent afraid of the future so the market will froze middle and small business will close
[2011/03/28 06:15] Plot Tracer: personally i think, the world is living beyond its means - and when i say that, i mean the west and the middle classes/ upper classes in particular. We need a fair system - and an unfair system is creating economic and environmental disaster

[2011/03/28 06:15] Plot Tracer: Dex - what is happening in Greece at the moment?
[2011/03/28 06:15] Notharess Dragovar: To have a working system,you need to have LESS humans,and LESS need of resources... And of course...less idiotic conflicts between people who seek to gain power
[2011/03/28 06:16] Dex Moleno: well greece is handled magnificent i think there is a great communication game upon us the country is mumb

[2011/03/28 06:16] Plot Tracer: or a system where we use only what we need, Notharess?
[2011/03/28 06:16] Dex Moleno: and i mean the people
[2011/03/28 06:16] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah,that system as well XD
[2011/03/28 06:17] Dex Moleno: they are afraid the to stand up to everything

[2011/03/28 06:16] millay Freschi: I'm curious to see what role technology will play in all of these issues. One stroke of technological genius could change everything
[2011/03/28 06:17] Notharess Dragovar: Technology will lead nowhere in my opinion...
[2011/03/28 06:17] Plot Tracer: millay - we cant wait for the "technology fix" - it might never come - and we are in trouble - deep trouble now.

[2011/03/28 06:17] millay Freschi: really?
[2011/03/28 06:17] Dex Moleno: the media are scrying the people are gonna get the next loan to cover our expenses ect

[2011/03/28 06:18] Plot Tracer: yes- there is a famous public health doctor here in UK - Phil Hanlon - and he says actually the smokescreen that technology can heal all is ensuring the present system of destruction and rising poverty is maintained

[2011/03/28 06:18] millay Freschi: yes i totally get that part...i really do but I still think that there is technology capable of completely wiping out our need for fossil fuel and energy that we pay for both economically and environmentally. i wonder if some of that technology isn't being withheld in order to reap maximum financial gain fossil fuels
[2011/03/28 06:18] Notharess Dragovar: Really, technology and development is like a drug of Power, and to reach a state where u do as less as possible, but you cause damage that will be shown in later times...it's basically just means of comfort, and a result of the massively increasing human population on earth-it's much more sad then it is smart
[2011/03/28 06:19] Plot Tracer: like what, Millay? the water powered car? the energies needed to separate hydrogen to power a car for example, is so vast and unstable, that we are not even within 50 years of creating such a thing.

[2011/03/28 06:19] Plot Tracer: ok
[2011/03/28 06:20] millay Freschi: no i don't think those sorts of things are going to make enough of a difference
[2011/03/28 06:20] millay Freschi: solar power....
[2011/03/28 06:21] Plot Tracer: although the environment is part of this - and in fact, the economic disaster and the current measures to combat it can only exacerbate the problems; the question today is, is there an alternative to the solutions put forward by governments and the world bank to the economic problem?
[2011/03/28 06:21] Notharess Dragovar: The solution is Rebuild!
[2011/03/28 06:21] Notharess Dragovar: Let it collapse, it failed anyway... From the ashes,we can rebuilt a better world… And learn from the past errors…BUT…A major fail in humanity that No one learned any thing since the Mesopotemian times

[2011/03/28 06:22] Kenya Warden: what do you mean Notharess?
[2011/03/28 06:23] Notharess Dragovar: Notice the many cultures that rise and fall
[2011/03/28 06:23] Notharess Dragovar: They have 1 thing in common
[2011/03/28 06:23] Plot Tracer: Do you think, Notharess - that the measures taken by Governments will lead to a change of the system (eg the Spanish Government making people work one hour extra a day free)
They grew TOO big for their own good; Well...I do not know about that... I just think that overall,what ever system which is build should monitor it's own growth, before it will reach to self-destruct

[2011/03/28 06:25] Plot Tracer: is "growth" a solution (or indeed, a viable system?)
[2011/03/28 06:25] Notharess Dragovar: Growth is the reality of the human race-
[2011/03/28 06:25] Plot Tracer: the word i hear on the left is "sustainability" rather than "growth"
[2011/03/28 06:25] Notharess Dragovar: 2 people will lead to having 100 people will lead to 10k people and so on... The massive swarm of humans will not be able to control itself-never mind Which type of government rules it… In small scale… Social group will work…In large scale,it will collapse
[2011/03/28 06:27] Notharess Dragovar: Over all, democracy cannot work, because the people at the top become too much selfish for their own good… Robots can control such a system better-unless someone is Reprograming them

[2011/03/28 06:28] Dex Moleno: that is right i think they had soo much power that we have a global corrupted system
[2011/03/28 06:28] Plot Tracer: this is the same in many "top down" systems. The USSR stagnated because a few people were profiting from the status quo...

[2011/03/28 06:28] Plot Tracer: yes dex
[2011/03/28 06:28] Notharess Dragovar: Yes
[2011/03/28 06:28] Notharess Dragovar: What is USSR BTW?

[2011/03/28 06:29] Plot Tracer: (USSR- pre-1989 Russia/ East Germany etc) we currently have a system where those with power are paid in bonuses even if they create a full system failure as happened i the banking system

[2011/03/28 06:30] Notharess Dragovar: The rich helps the rich...it's one heck of a corrupted system… Personaly,let all be equal,no need for Levels
[2011/03/28 06:30] Plot Tracer: Peter - welcome. I have just told people of the solution in Netherlands to the bankers bonuses...
[2011/03/28 06:30] Plot Tracer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/27/dutch-bankers-bonuses-axed-by-people-power?mobile-redirect=false
[2011/03/28 06:31] Plot Tracer: how do we achieve having "no levels", notharess
[2011/03/28 06:32] Notharess Dragovar: I do not know how to do that Succesfully...humans have the habbit of allways wanting more… I want Less actually

[2011/03/28 06:33] Plot Tracer: do they? or do most people want just what they need plus some leisure? I believe we have created a competitive society where people want to look as if they have more than their neighbour.
[2011/03/28 06:33] Plot Tracer: and i also believe people in work are so far away from decision making and the fruits of their labours, work has become something other than helping society become batter.
[2011/03/28 06:33] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah...The consumerism culture-which is basically the heart of the USA
[2011/03/28 06:34] Notharess Dragovar: Well...People work to gain for themself-that is what the world is teaching today Sadly

[2011/03/28 06:35] Anon: i think work actually makes you spend a lot more... in terms of justifying going out on fridays, saturdays, fuel costs to get to work, buying lunch..
[2011/03/28 06:35] Plot Tracer: true Anon
[2011/03/28 06:35] Notharess Dragovar: Got a point

[2011/03/28 06:35] Anon: when i was unemployed i could easily live off much less
[2011/03/28 06:35] Notharess Dragovar: And most of the work is Useless if you really look at it
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: do people even speak to their neighbours these days? i certainly don’t
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: i have what i need

[2011/03/28 06:36] Plot Tracer: yes notharess -i think a lot can be learned from the old soviet states and cuba - in that they use emulation rather than competition as a means in society - in education and in their work
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: i dont compare myself to anyone
[2011/03/28 06:36] Plot Tracer: is this true of most, Anon?
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: maybe i live on a different planet, then...

[2011/03/28 06:37] Dex Moleno: well you work you get tired you deserve it in my opinion but guys i think we are missing the points going out on friday is living a life we are not talking about a luis vuittons here
[2011/03/28 06:37] umsultan Tearfall: It is obvious to everyone that the financial crisis is shaking the entire world, East and West. It is a serious event that is giving the politicians, decision makers, prominent thinkers and economists sleepless nights. It is a huge calamity that is very complex and has many implications, which explains the great turmoil being experienced by economists and politicians, and it also explains why so much is being written about it, analysing it from different points of view. They are in a state of great confusion, and some of them have started to blame one another for what has happened
[2011/03/28 06:37] Dex Moleno: that is true um
[2011/03/28 06:37] Anon: i dont know plot, we'd have to do surveys... do we still fall true to 50s cliche sayings?
[2011/03/28 06:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: the turmoil is that politicians abandoned all control over economy
[2011/03/28 06:38] umsultan Tearfall: This crisis requires some explanation in order to highlight some important shar’i aspects that have to do with it.
[2011/03/28 06:38] Plot Tracer: 50s cliche sayings, Anon?
[2011/03/28 06:38] Anon: 'keeping up with the jones etc'
[2011/03/28 06:38] Plot Tracer: yes sophie. who is handling the economy? our elected representatives or others?
[2011/03/28 06:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: the 50 cliches were still alive under reagan era under bush and are still
[2011/03/28 06:39] Notharess Dragovar: U cannot trust anyone there actually...
[2011/03/28 06:39] umsultan Tearfall: 1. The crisis is real

It has led to the collapse of major banks and financial institutions; international stock markets have declined, trillions of dollars have evaporated, billions have disappeared from the financial markets, many countries in the world have hit rock bottom, millions have lost their wealth, be it in the form of shares, savings or investments; the investments of the American people in the stock markets have lost $4 trillion. This crisis has become like a tsunami, striking the economies of many countries.
[2011/03/28 06:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: billions that never existed really else in speculation, but when theses irreal billions faded they grabbed it from real economy
[2011/03/28 06:40] Notharess Dragovar: U know...there is allways a Crisis,I just belive that the at it's base-it comes from the lack of self control within the race of humans
[2011/03/28 06:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: as about countries crises , countries took debts to save banks and now banks attacks countries on their debts ??? it is ubuesque
[2011/03/28 06:41] Plot Tracer: yes Sophie
[2011/03/28 06:41] Plot Tracer: well notharess - did this crisis come through the mismanagement of the many - or the mismanagement of the few?
[2011/03/28 06:41] Notharess Dragovar: Both
[2011/03/28 06:41] umsultan Tearfall: 2. “the roof fell down upon them”
Economy and money are the main foundation of Western society, and when they were content with that and forsook the laws of God.
[2011/03/28 06:41] Notharess Dragovar: The many stoped managing themself,because they just can't
[2011/03/28 06:41] Notharess Dragovar: And,they put people who seek onle self-gain in charge
[2011/03/28 06:41] Iblis Aluveaux: do you think it is endemic to the human condition Sopie? or, is simply a lack of organizational models that are workable in the long term?
[2011/03/28 06:41] Plot Tracer: the west lost its manufacturing base - making things - and instead started to bet on debt to make some people some money - a pyramid scheme of huge proportions...
[2011/03/28 06:42] Anon: i thought we are kind moving into a post consumerist culture... why 'keep up with the joneses' when the cheapest thing is still 1000% better than what you could buy 10 years ago? i think we are bored with bigger and better... whatever works is fine, and i see that attitude all around me
[2011/03/28 06:42] Plot Tracer: did they "put" people in charge?
[2011/03/28 06:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: i have read recently a study about markets speculation, it was estimated at several times global production of earth, none existent money that have value of far more than what planet produce in one year
[2011/03/28 06:42] umsultan Tearfall: What we are seeing today of large scale destruction is about to utterly destroy them. The economic structure that they boast about and think will protect them has become the cause of their turmoil and decline. The calamity has come to them from above and from below. They thought that their financial system was perfect but from that system has come that which they never expected. “and the torment overtook them from directions they did not perceive”.
[2011/03/28 06:42] Notharess Dragovar: They elected them...
[2011/03/28 06:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: we elect them and even when we say they are idiots we reelect them, we are the guilty ones
[2011/03/28 06:43] Dex Moleno: do you feel you have a choice to turn to sophie
[2011/03/28 06:43] Notharess Dragovar: Yes
[2011/03/28 06:43] Dex Moleno: ?
[2011/03/28 06:43] Plot Tracer: did they Notharess? In the UK, the coalition was not elected
[2011/03/28 06:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes we have a turn the day we would all put a blank vote or not reelect someoen who failed the n they will change
[2011/03/28 06:43] Plot Tracer: and the "winning party" in the last election was elected by less than 25% of the people who voted
[2011/03/28 06:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: we choose our politicians for their skills to broke slightly law for us at local scale but as we choose people who are unhonest at their scale they do far more
[2011/03/28 06:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: we are the first guilty ones
[2011/03/28 06:44] Dex Moleno: no sophie
[2011/03/28 06:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: but i am french we always consider that there is still a guillotine ready in a museum
[2011/03/28 06:44] Dex Moleno: we want fairness
[2011/03/28 06:44] Notharess Dragovar: Well...again comes the "human swarm" idea, people cannot manage themselves anymore-most of them really don't have the time to even think about what is going on in the big picture...so they let the few run them-and because it's hard for them to realy look at what is going on-They the few do whatever they wish
[2011/03/28 06:45] Dex Moleno: and i must remind you that the fish starts to rotten from the head
[2011/03/28 06:45] Dex Moleno: so
[2011/03/28 06:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: fairness ? fairness for who what is fairness not taking money to those who make children working in india as nike ?
[2011/03/28 06:45] Notharess Dragovar: Both ends are rotten, because both of them are just unable to control the body
[2011/03/28 06:46] Plot Tracer: i disagree - i feel - and this has been proved in the uk - that the politicians say something that is not completely honest, and then get elected and surprise people. one of the partners of the coalition here was against - completely - many of the cuts they are now saying are necessary - like in education, and in welfare etc
[2011/03/28 06:46] umsultan Tearfall: 3. “Say (to them), ‘It is from yourselves (because of your evil deeds)’” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:165]

Just as calamities and disasters have known, tangible causes, they also have spiritual causes. The fact that there are tangible causes does not contradict the fact that there are spiritual causes too.
[2011/03/28 06:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: usually the first in economy who talk of fairness are big corps and the rich who think it is fair that poor die in street

[2011/03/28 06:46] Anon: children don’t work in nike factories. the people who do work there are paid better than other local businesses, with much better conditions. Otherwise they wouldn’t work there.
[2011/03/28 06:46] Plot Tracer: agreed sophie

[2011/03/28 06:46] Iblis Aluveaux: otherwise they wouldn’t work there?
[2011/03/28 06:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: cuts in education and health are needed ? why not to take the money as a tax on the speculation ? Speculation ruin countries, ruin economies, it would be fair to tax the city not to cut education and health
[2011/03/28 06:47] umsultan Tearfall: Oppression, transgression, sin, disobedience to Allaah and denying the rights of others are all causes of calamities befalling people at both individual and group levels, and even at the global level on occasion, as we are seeing in this crisis which involves calamities one after another
[2011/03/28 06:47] Anon: yes, they would work at the local businesses if it paid better. people *want* to work at nike.. because they pay better and give better conditions.
[2011/03/28 06:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes it is easy to say that children need to work but remember in old Europe it was the same but we decided to forbid it
[2011/03/28 06:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: and we promoted education , Europe have build on education not on work of children
[2011/03/28 06:48] Notharess Dragovar: Spirituality is another calamity....
[2011/03/28 06:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: but for someone who care just of business it is an, other matter
[2011/03/28 06:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: the matter is that we consider dividends and corps more important than lives

[2011/03/28 06:49] Notharess Dragovar: Yes...that is the problem
[2011/03/28 06:49] umsultan Tearfall: What has befallen the people is not a problem from heaven; rather it is a calamity that has befallen them because of their sin and what their own hands have wrought.
[2011/03/28 06:50] Notharess Dragovar: Without any connection to "Sin",humans are just to stupid to realize what they are doing

[2011/03/28 06:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: to sin ? you mean evil side ?
[2011/03/28 06:51] Plot Tracer: can i give a link to a twitter account worth following?
[2011/03/28 06:51] umsultan Tearfall: 4. God gives respite but does not forget
[2011/03/28 06:51] Plot Tracer: http://twitter.com/theleftbanker

[2011/03/28 06:51] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: :)
[2011/03/28 06:51] Dex Moleno: oh come on
[2011/03/28 06:51] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: hurra !!!!!
[2011/03/28 06:51] Dex Moleno: really ?
[2011/03/28 06:51] Temba Resident: respite?
[2011/03/28 06:51] Anon: god is pretend.
[2011/03/28 06:51] Temba Resident: agreed

[2011/03/28 06:51] Anon: humans making bad decisions however, is not
[2011/03/28 06:51] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah...evil side is basically Existence in it's core
[2011/03/28 06:51] Temba Resident: no proof of a Christian god
[2011/03/28 06:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: we could perhaps avoid the religious matter ?
[2011/03/28 06:52] Dex Moleno: Sin , god , religion
[2011/03/28 06:52] Dex Moleno: ?
[2011/03/28 06:52] Notharess Dragovar: I meant to something someone said earlier...
[2011/03/28 06:52] Dex Moleno: the biggest travesty in history
[2011/03/28 06:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can respect each others and talking economy without involving god, i respect religion but i not want religion to peek in my life and bed

[2011/03/28 06:52] Plot Tracer: can we perhaps come away from the "evil" verses good stuff and concentrate now on how to solve the banking crisis?

[2011/03/28 06:52] Temba Resident: and I am agnostic
[2011/03/28 06:52] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: grats :) really grats :)
[2011/03/28 06:52] Notharess Dragovar: Humans are indeed doomed from their start, without any connection to Sins or things like those
[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: What is an agnostic?
[2011/03/28 06:53] Temba Resident: the only way to solve the banking crises is take exposé and denounce the ones causing it

[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: Wow...it'
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: doomed ? he have our moralities our codes of honour
[2011/03/28 06:53] Plot Tracer: can we save the religious conversation for perhaps another time?
[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: it's* hard to keep up with all the words XD
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: codes

[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes religion have nothing to matter with this subject
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: and religion and politic are split domains

[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: Indeed...it's a different problem by itself...
[2011/03/28 06:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: one is how we rule our spirituality the other is for human things

[2011/03/28 06:54] Plot Tracer: do people believe that bankers should be allowed to keep bonuses - especially bonuses from banks that are now being bailed out by taxes?

[2011/03/28 06:54] Anon: maybe we should make a computer virus that will wipe all debt records and all cash. clean wipe. the problem is all in the numbers
[2011/03/28 06:54] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: thanks
[2011/03/28 06:54] Notharess Dragovar: Why the heck should bankers have bonuses???
[2011/03/28 06:54] Anon: distribution is the problem
[2011/03/28 06:55] Sophiekittycat Resident: the question is why the heck rulers can have so much bonuses and workers nothing, without the workers , they could not have the bonus
[2011/03/28 06:55] Notharess Dragovar: U mean something like the FAIL 2000 bug?
[2011/03/28 06:55] Sophiekittycat Resident: the question is here it is not the bonus but the repartition of the work benefits

[2011/03/28 06:55] Notharess Dragovar: The way to solve this is simple-workers get up,go bash up the idiots at the top
[2011/03/28 06:55] Plot Tracer: yes notharess
[2011/03/28 06:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is not a good thing too, you can cut all elites head or we do genocides as with Mao or pol pot

[2011/03/28 06:56] Notharess Dragovar: The thing that is keeping the workers at bay is only Fear
[2011/03/28 06:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: no it is to have a more important ^politic control over economy
[2011/03/28 06:56] Anon: people get rich by working hard. don’t they deserve bonuses for their work?
[2011/03/28 06:56] Temba Resident: um all that bail out goes to the bankers
[2011/03/28 06:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: and their workers they don’t work hard ? there is only the boss who can keep the money ? sorry i can this economical slavery
[2011/03/28 06:57] Anon: yes, but the people up the top have actually created it all... they organise and they create jobs

[2011/03/28 06:57] Kenya Warden: If one wishes to discuss, one should respect the opinion of others, no matter how far from once own it is. Otherwise one can just as well discuss with the mirror.

[2011/03/28 06:57] Plot Tracer: yes Sophie. what bonus does a mother or father get? what bonus does a teacher or nurse get?

[2011/03/28 06:57] Temba Resident: I can name two of the richest most powerful bankers in the wrold, two families that has been at the head of the banks since 1776

[2011/03/28 06:57] Plot Tracer: who are the more helpful to society? nurses or bankers?

[2011/03/28 06:57] Anon: if they own the company, they should be able to take as much profit as they like
[2011/03/28 06:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: the fathers and mothers could have a bonus by the place they work if the boss was not keeping all just for exchange market
[2011/03/28 06:58] Temba Resident: but I am reluctant to give the two family names

[2011/03/28 06:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: the teachers ? they are paid by the country then they should be well paid or this country betray it citizens
[2011/03/28 06:58] Temba Resident: because every time I say them I get accused of anti semetics and conspiracy tin hat theories
[2011/03/28 06:58] Notharess Dragovar: It's basically King rule,in a different shape-the kings are those with power,the others are Slaves to them
[2011/03/28 06:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: sometime a guillotine is efficient
[2011/03/28 06:59] Notharess Dragovar: It's just a temporary solution
[2011/03/28 06:59] Temba Resident: which I'm sick of because thats the kind of discrediting that keeps these powerful rich bastards safe from full exposure

[2011/03/28 06:59] Notharess Dragovar: The problem is WAY deeper then that
[2011/03/28 06:59] Plot Tracer: notharess - some here in the UK believe that the Tories are wanting to turn the clocks back to fuedal times. the way they are destroying our "eglatarian" education system etc seems to point that way! :)

[2011/03/28 07:00] Plot Tracer: http://www.leftbanker.net/archives/231 - this article is interesting about bonuses
[2011/03/28 07:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: the problem is the humans, and that all humans need access to a true education, the problem actually is that politic no more control economy
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: U are right....
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: Idiots make good slaves after all...
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: That is eventually the mission of the reach
[2011/03/28 07:00] Plot Tracer: yes sophie - education is key - a real education. when the right wing attack education, they attack democracy
[2011/03/28 07:00] Temba Resident: they don’t want humans to have access to true education
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: Turn all the rest to be their slaves
[2011/03/28 07:00] Temba Resident: they want us as dumbed down as possible
[2011/03/28 07:01] Plot Tracer: attacks on education were the first thing the Tories did here when they took power last year

[2011/03/28 07:01] Notharess Dragovar: Indeed
[2011/03/28 07:01] Sophiekittycat Resident: and education if what make a country rich, it is from education that a country stay in the race not by the market

[2011/03/28 07:01] Anon: many millionaires never finished highschool

[2011/03/28 07:01] Notharess Dragovar: Actually got NO idea on global events...I just look from a logical perspective

[2011/03/28 07:02] Plot Tracer: many many poor people never finished highschool

[2011/03/28 07:02] Anon: indeed

[2011/03/28 07:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: if it was so easy in a capitalist society to be rich and to not be poor, someone can explain me why there is so few rich and so much poor ?
[2011/03/28 07:02] Iblis Aluveaux: at present 'education' is knowing when you are being lied to
[2011/03/28 07:02] Anon: education is probably the key to jumping up a social class, but it is very difficult to do anyway
[2011/03/28 07:03] Notharess Dragovar: The poor are born to be poor, and their luck did not smile.... Easy-rich take whatever opportunity they got,don't care who dies on the way
[2011/03/28 07:03] Sophiekittycat Resident: i not talk of education as a way to jump over others but as away for everyone to understand in which society the are , to take the right decisions
[2011/03/28 07:03] Plot Tracer: is there a solution in common ownership of utilities?

[2011/03/28 07:03] Anon: yes rich people dont obey the morals that are set out for poor people to stay poor
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: yes sophie - an informed populace is a dangerous thing to the right wing.
[2011/03/28 07:04] Iblis Aluveaux: its out of reach at this point I think Plot
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: yes Anon - totally
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: why iblis?

[2011/03/28 07:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: common ownership ? no no else for strategic things as energy, education, water, security that have to be in state hands

[2011/03/28 07:04] Iblis Aluveaux: common ownership isn;t coming about without a drastic change

[2011/03/28 07:04] Dex Moleno: education is a weapon to do the extra mile mentally to have a "fingerprint " as a human being it has nothing to do with wealth capabillies and possibillities

[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: the banks are under common ownership (well - their debt is - not their profits - which is surely wrong)

[2011/03/28 07:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we have to tolerate a small amount of inequality for society to be stable and progress

[2011/03/28 07:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we have to keep it fair

[2011/03/28 07:05] Anon: this society rewards innovation, creation of wealth
[2011/03/28 07:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: how ?
[2011/03/28 07:05] Anon: building a business
[2011/03/28 07:05] Plot Tracer: does it Anon?
[2011/03/28 07:05] Anon: yes
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: thats how you get rich

[2011/03/28 07:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: hahah most creators got their creations stolen by bankers
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: by building a business
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: selling something that everyone needs
[2011/03/28 07:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: or those who succeed were those with no respect for others

[2011/03/28 07:06] Dex Moleno: thisociety ? how is it ? me you or opra? times magazine ?
[2011/03/28 07:06] Temba Resident: no I disagree, the banks are under private ownership
[2011/03/28 07:06] Plot Tracer: can our society sustain everyone doing this, Anon?
[2011/03/28 07:06] Notharess Dragovar: Well...the problem is that today people sell things NO ONE really needs, yet they buy them
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: theoretically yes. practically no

[2011/03/28 07:06] Plot Tracer: i agree notharess

[2011/03/28 07:07] Temba Resident: it's documented, the owners publically admitted it
[2011/03/28 07:07] Plot Tracer: who needs the latest Manchaester united football kit? or the latest design in Nike?
[2011/03/28 07:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: problem actually is that corporations produce more and more, pay workers less and less, but who then can buy more and more when they are paid less and less ?
[2011/03/28 07:07] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/28 07:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: low classes and middle classes are thoses who make a society be healthy not the riches

[2011/03/28 07:08] Temba Resident: and who's giving these corporations money? the people the shoppers, consumerism
[2011/03/28 07:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: if you make middle classes and low classes poorer then you go to a disaster

[2011/03/28 07:08] Plot Tracer: this is certainly happening in the UK. And now Spain has announced its workers are on a pay freeze plus have to work an extra hour. are we becoming slaves to ensure these corporations increase growth?
[2011/03/28 07:08] Dex Moleno: right Sophie
[2011/03/28 07:08] Dex Moleno: yes plot that is the game
[2011/03/28 07:09] Temba Resident: yes plot we already are

[2011/03/28 07:09] Dex Moleno: but Plot

[2011/03/28 07:09] Iblis Aluveaux: there is little scope for that sort of business Anon. Most things that people need are produced by and sold my huge corporations. Even food is grown by them. We are shown the guy who made facebook and told "oh, you can do that too" but in truth he was already quite privileged and his product isn't one that anyone but the very rich can compete with.

[2011/03/28 07:09] Dex Moleno: the thing is this plan is not gonna work
[2011/03/28 07:09] Plot Tracer: yes iblis - and we are told we can all do this, when in reality few do.
[2011/03/28 07:09] Dex Moleno: is the middle class fails then the society fails
[2011/03/28 07:09] Iblis Aluveaux: we can't all be billionaires- its a mirage
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: but we can all be poor?

[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: yes dex
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: i agree

[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: and the middle classes are becoming smaller in the west
[2011/03/28 07:10] Anon: so what.. you don’t want to reward ideas anymore? Everyone living off the same wage, no matter what they do?

[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: ok

[2011/03/28 07:10] Iblis Aluveaux: we don’t have to be poor. The earth is bountiful. We need organizational structures based on sharing and cooperation
[2011/03/28 07:11] Temba Resident: the poor become poorer, the middle poorer, and the rich richer

[2011/03/28 07:11] Plot Tracer: well - rewarding ideas - that is an interesting one. should one person profit from an idea through exploiting others to carry out that idea?

[2011/03/28 07:11] Dex Moleno: well i d like to see how that will go i mean the plan to wipe the middle class
[2011/03/28 07:11] Plot Tracer: should society not profit rather than an individual?

[2011/03/28 07:11] Notharess Dragovar: Personally...let humans be in Small numbers, let each ones education become massive, and let us all work together-while keeping our own development and Growth in numbers under monitoring

[2011/03/28 07:11] Iblis Aluveaux: no idea arises in isolation

[2011/03/28 07:11] Temba Resident: well corporations like Monsanto and BP are destroying nature’s bounty with their oil, and GMO product and herbisides
[2011/03/28 07:12] Notharess Dragovar: They don't care!!!
[2011/03/28 07:12] Plot Tracer: eg. the internet would not have happened if those who invented it at CERN had have calimed 2"wnership" of copyright etc
[2011/03/28 07:12] Notharess Dragovar: Their only care is Money

[2011/03/28 07:12] Iblis Aluveaux: yes Temba they are, and the masses are paying them to do it.
[2011/03/28 07:12] Temba Resident: Monsanto has already destroyed much of Mexico’s organic corn which their germinating GMO corn
[2011/03/28 07:13] Plot Tracer: the masses are not given a choice. they are given the pretence at choice
[2011/03/28 07:13] Temba Resident: they even lied about the germinating corn
[2011/03/28 07:13] Iblis Aluveaux: capitalism is based on the premise of competition but that model is not sustainable

[2011/03/28 07:13] Plot Tracer: monsanto is selling sees for crops that mean people have to go to them for chemicals and also go back to them to buy more seeds

[2011/03/28 07:13] Plot Tracer: so should this idea be rewarded
[2011/03/28 07:13] Temba Resident: no they don't
[2011/03/28 07:14] Temba Resident: the people are being forced

[2011/03/28 07:14] Anon: well plot, the reality is, is that it is rewarded... though why no one hasn’t blown up their factory is another thing altogether..
[2011/03/28 07:14] Notharess Dragovar: I think I got the picture then...basically the next thing to happen is a massive scale collapse-maybe some wars...and then,if someone manages to survive-Rebirth
[2011/03/28 07:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: regulated capitalism is sustainable, free capitalism is not

[2011/03/28 07:14] Plot Tracer: but is it what people want? or is that monsanto seed something that is being imposed on the poor for profit?

[2011/03/28 07:15] Temba Resident: a secret program by monsanto has been exposed many times monsanto was caught aerial spraying Roundup on fields designed to kill every thing but their GMO product

[2011/03/28 07:15] Iblis Aluveaux: (capitalism is not the idea that you can open a store or make and sell your own goods, its the idea that if you have money the best way to get more is gambling, on the stock market.)

[2011/03/28 07:15] Notharess Dragovar: The greed this days...
[2011/03/28 07:15] Plot Tracer: yes iblis
[2011/03/28 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: basis of capitalism and of first stock market was people gathering togethers for doing manufactury or a ship for the east, this was good they were planning for years

[2011/03/28 07:16] Plot Tracer: there is nothing wrong with selling your own goods in order to buy other things you need. trade will always happen - but do we need a system that gambles on how big debts are going to be?

[2011/03/28 07:16] Notharess Dragovar: I think we are all are fully aware of the problems...and right now we just give Examples...I think we should more talk about actual ways of affecting it,rather then just Nodding

[2011/03/28 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: actual capitalism is benefits over a week not years

[2011/03/28 07:16] Temba Resident: Monsanto GMO is destroying organic crops by germination and mixing
[2011/03/28 07:16] Plot Tracer: yes notharess
[2011/03/28 07:17] Plot Tracer: i have a suggestion
[2011/03/28 07:17] Temba Resident: most the food in our supermarkets, cereals canned products are monsanto GMO

[2011/03/28 07:17] Iblis Aluveaux: Notharess hits the right chord
[2011/03/28 07:17] Plot Tracer: if this crisis was caused in some way by the selling of debt to people who could not pay it back (to buy houses)

[2011/03/28 07:17] Temba Resident: the gov refuses to make laws requiering gmo lables

[2011/03/28 07:17] Plot Tracer: why not change the debt into community rents? this does two things- ensures the people have somewhere to live
[2011/03/28 07:18] Plot Tracer: and also creates a huge community capital [asset]

[2011/03/28 07:18] Temba Resident: their by the mosanto is allowed to force this shit on us and we can never know what is and what isn't GMO

[2011/03/28 07:18] Temba Resident: we have no choice because we have to eat

[2011/03/28 07:18] Iblis Aluveaux: please explain community rents

[2011/03/28 07:18] Notharess Dragovar: Lets think for a moment about the "Huge"
[2011/03/28 07:18] Plot Tracer: anyone else have solutions?
[2011/03/28 07:18] Notharess Dragovar: Remember-on massive scale only the Nothing works; Still good idea
[2011/03/28 07:19] Temba Resident: the biggest problem is mega corps like monsanto are paying off our MP's and senators

[2011/03/28 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: solutions are laws , control and enough harsh punishments for a corporation that not respect morality
[2011/03/28 07:19] Notharess Dragovar: Overall...I think we should let the Collapse occur, because the world in this version is just Too corrupted, and basically lack ALOT of basic morality even

[2011/03/28 07:20] Temba Resident: not when the people making the laws are being payed off by mega corps
[2011/03/28 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: a corp punishment should be such harsh that they not even want to start again, you and me if we kill someone we can have death penalty or life jail-should be as for corporations

[2011/03/28 07:20] Notharess Dragovar: After the collapse,we can start again-this time NO SEEKING OF MASSIVE GROWTH AND POWER

[2011/03/28 07:20] Iblis Aluveaux: our MPs and senators are corporate people. Its not simply graft.
[2011/03/28 07:20] Notharess Dragovar: Still...the Corporations run the government
[2011/03/28 07:21] Anon: if we knock it down and start over, we won’t learn from our mistakes. we have to fix what we started

[2011/03/28 07:21] Temba Resident: as long as the people in congress continues to bow under the pressures of the mega corps we are screwed no punishment for corps
[2011/03/28 07:21] Notharess Dragovar: Who do you think pays for the Spreading of lies of those who wish to be elected? How can you fix such a Massive thing?

[2011/03/28 07:21] Temba Resident: and what punishments are laid down ifs in the the form of pocket change for these mega corps.
[2011/03/28 07:21] Iblis Aluveaux: they are by and large one class. Politicians and Corporate heads generally come from a small group of people
[2011/03/28 07:21] Anon: small changes, gradually, over time
[2011/03/28 07:21] Notharess Dragovar: U can create something within it,and seperate it from the rest...to that I agree

[2011/03/28 07:22] Anon: big movements lead to things like stalin, hitler, mao etc - they *never* work
[2011/03/28 07:22] Anon: small changes are very effective
[2011/03/28 07:22] Temba Resident: it's like chargimng a drunk driver 5 dollors for killing some one
[2011/03/28 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: never work and how in europe we got our revolutions ? how in usa they have free from British

[2011/03/28 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is too easy to say we cant do anything
[2011/03/28 07:22] Notharess Dragovar: How can you make a big move while no one is even willing to stop their lifes for a moment and realize that the big picture is just wrong,and they need to change it?
[2011/03/28 07:22] Iblis Aluveaux: we have little local politics. my town is full of people who care what obama does but don;t even know what the school board does
[2011/03/28 07:23] Anon: well just be like the french and knock down things that you dont like with bulldozers

[2011/03/28 07:23] Temba Resident: because they are too dumbed down under corp. control- brain washed scared sheeple
[2011/03/28 07:23] Anon: i wish people would do that more often
[2011/03/28 07:23] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah...

[2011/03/28 07:23] Iblis Aluveaux: I wanna hear about community rents Plot:)
[**sorry Iblis – I was lost in IM’s – I will send you a notrecard detailing this idea**]

[2011/03/28 07:23] Notharess Dragovar: When a king goes mad-you take him out

[2011/03/28 07:23] Plot Tracer: but the fact is, Anon, there are massive movements (corporations) controlling our water, mediua, power, etc anyway. they are not working - they are taking from the poorest and controlling them... and this is becoming worse as fewer corporations, who are under no democratic structures as they are bigger than governments in economic power -
come into being- eg murdoch

[2011/03/28 07:24] Dex Moleno: i agree with Sophie i think the first step is social unity governments corps. ect try to divide the people by turning us against another because someone get payed a little more than the other , that is the first step against the crisis ,UNITY
[2011/03/28 07:24] Plot Tracer: he is now in control of a huge proportion of our information services
[2011/03/28 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes dex
[2011/03/28 07:24] Temba Resident: divide and concure
[2011/03/28 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes sophie
[2011/03/28 07:24] Iblis Aluveaux: I am with Sophie and Dex on the unity issue. We need to demonstrate new ways of living

[2011/03/28 07:25] Plot Tracer: ok. can we wrap this up with perhaps one sentence from each?

[2011/03/28 07:25] Notharess Dragovar: I dunno,I kinda am in a state where I see that our countries have gone into the point of collapse
[2011/03/28 07:25] Notharess Dragovar: And that most people won't even listen

[2011/03/28 07:26] Dex Moleno: Social unity i have to say for the time being and prepare cause we have fights to give on every level

[2011/03/28 07:26] Iblis Aluveaux: We need to build communities on the micro level, ones based on cooperation. (thats my sentence)

[2011/03/28 07:27] Sophiekittycat Resident: unity as the peasants unions for altermondialists

[2011/03/28 07:27] Notharess Dragovar: Last sentance:We need to fix the Core problem of humanity in order to move on,otherwise we will reach the same point over and over again

[2011/03/28 07:28] Plot Tracer: My last sentence: I believe we can fight for a different kind of society; one that is driven by putting people before profit. A vision of hope where everyone could fulfil their potential and live full and meaningful live rather than the cuts, despair and austerity that the corporations and present lacky governments are presenting us with. i believe in local and global solutions - we need both - local control of communities and global control of economies and extraction and manufacturing the things we need.

[2011/03/28 07:28] Anon: i think that only small changes are effective. and they are the easiest to implement. trying to make big changes ends in some horribly misguided catastrophe, or fails to be effective... or is too hard to even get off the ground (ie, if so many people think like the people in this room, why havent they all gotten together and done something? the answer lies in its difficulty)

[2011/03/28 07:28] Sophiekittycat Resident: i would think the opposite to give more and more power to high levels as europe united nations they are the politic powers that can opposite the corporations and if we do at small scales we will fall in nationalism in egoism
[2011/03/28 07:29] Sophiekittycat Resident: our doom is that people actually fall in nationalism is separatism in regionalisms

[2011/03/28 07:31] IM: Dex Moleno: thanks plot it was a nice discussion you handled it very well

[2011/03/28 07:31] Plot Tracer: ok - unless anyone has anything else they would like to say, we can wrap this up. See you all again same time same place next week. anyone who has suggestions for next weeks discussion, please drop me a notecard or email - plottracer@googlemail.com

[2011/03/28 07:31] Temba Resident: http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pro/1103PSIEOAVD/PPSIM369/PR

[2011/03/28 07:32] Notharess Dragovar: I think we need to get more to the Activism rather then Debate

[2011/03/28 07:33] Sophiekittycat Resident: activism will be possible when the ideas spread in opinion
[2011/03/28 07:33] Sophiekittycat Resident: else it is just spiting in the ocean
[2011/03/28 07:33] Sophiekittycat Resident: educating people by debate is not less noble that the fight
[2011/03/28 07:34] Plot Tracer: i agree sophie - re education. these events are for that... for us all to help educate each other

[2011/03/28 07:34] Notharess Dragovar: Indeed
[2011/03/28 07:35] Notharess Dragovar: Things start with the mind
[2011/03/28 07:35] Iblis Aluveaux: I am with sophie on that too

[2011/03/28 07:35] Anon: great talk, ciao

[2011/03/28 07:35] Iblis Aluveaux: thanks for the time Plot
[2011/03/28 07:35] Plot Tracer: and that is a nice way to end :)

[2011/03/28 07:35] Plot Tracer: np! see u all soon!
[2011/03/28 07:38] Dex Moleno: goverment corps "system " are trying to change the status quo globally we are part of a big game communicators polls ect are determining what will be taken and when i think the only hope is that they lose control too fast then the people will get to the streets is gonna be ugly but i think the history teach it is the only way .....i hope not to many is lost in translation
[2011/03/28 07:38] SLLU Donation Hat: Thanks for the 20L$, Comrade Sophiekittycat Resident

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Tuesday, 22 March 2011

SLLU Discussion - Nukes and Sustainable Energy...

Discussions can be organised at any time through SLLU - please IM Plot Tracer if you would like to do this.

The following discussion took place on 21st March 2011

Present: Green Hawks; Plot Tracer; Ataraxia Azemus; Collosus Adagio; Ilsa Hesse: Drezz Jarman; Agnes Sharple; Takni Miklos; Siri Vita; Alina Gabilondo

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Conversation with Ilsa...

...on socialism etc.

The people you meet in a Left Unity group may not always agree, but we are mostly singing off the same hymn sheet.  This is the second in my "Conversations" series.  If Left Unity is not about talking, what else is it for?  Conversations educate - I come away from conversations with other people who have different views as me, hopefully, a more understanding activist.

[06:25 AM] Ilsa Hesse waves
[06:25 AM] Plot Tracer: hi ilsa! :)
[06:25 AM] Ilsa Hesse: how are you ?
[06:26 AM] Plot Tracer: aye - i am good :) you?

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Friday, 18 March 2011

SLLU Podcast

Included in this podcast is music from Thee Faction; Roy Moller; and Socialist Activist Kevin Robin’s song Corporate Anorexia based on a poem by Kathy Tytler.

Also included is a presentation by The Left Banker

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Thursday, 17 March 2011

SL Left Unity - a place for Left discussion...

SLLU is about discussion and finding common ground. Discussions go on all of the time in IM and on our parcels.

Today I spoke with Agnes Sharple. I asked her permission to publish some of our conversation, as I think it illustrates SLLU and it’s purpose very well. (I have also kept a small part about Amnesty International in SL in this chatlog- please read it if you are in an Amnesty group in SL!)

Agnes Sharple: "that’s why I find it good to have diversity and disagreements in SLLU, people can learn that we don’t necessarily have to agree, but we still respect each other"
These are our personal views and not the views of the group as a whole.

[2011/03/17 02:06] Plot Tracer: Hi Agnes - some people have complained that notices are being sent out as SLLU poionts of view when they are individuals point of view (for example the No fly Zone stuff - there are different views in our Left Unity group). When you are posting such stuff, could you make sure it is clear that it is your view and not necessarily the view of SLLU? Thanks comrade!

[02:54 AM] Agnes Sharple: Hi Plot. Of course. Sorry. I was thinking of that after i posted it, i should have said something like "this might interest some of you" or something

[02:54 AM] Plot Tracer: no problem! It is just that some people said that “this is not my view."

[02:55 AM] Agnes Sharple: well, we do not expect everyone in this group to agree with everyone, do we? Its a unity :)
[02:55 AM] Plot Tracer: yes :)
[02:55 AM] Plot Tracer: i will worry when people agree on everything...
[02:55 AM] Plot Tracer: :)
[02:56 AM] Agnes Sharple: :)

[02:57 AM] Agnes Sharple: that said, i am not comfortable with very aggressive ppl in this group and ppl spelling death threats and such, fighting against fascists, being quite fascist themselves. Get my drift?
[02:58 AM] Plot Tracer: yes
[02:58 AM] Plot Tracer: i agree

Plot Tracer: "Education - and immersion in discussion and experience of discourse and action in sl is all part of this educational experience- this is why some of us began the group SLLU"
[03:00 AM] Plot Tracer: though my experience is that these types of people mellow with more exposure to other peoples views. I have seen some activists grow. One I know started in SL about 4 years ago and was an armchair fanatic... but with exposure to other views and talks and discussions and - years - he has become a rl activist with good *evidence based* views
[03:00 AM] Plot Tracer: this happens again and again.
[03:01 AM] Plot Tracer: though there are people who will never *change much*.... but it is good they have their own groups - and will learn how to react in a unity group.

[03:04 AM] Agnes Sharple: Yep, that’s why I find it good to have diversity and disagreements in SLLU, people can learn that we don’t necessarily have to agree, but we still respect each other

[03:04 AM] Plot Tracer: yes
[03:05 AM] Plot Tracer: this is perhaps the most important lesson in sl left unity. the 8th of our aims and principles says ---“ SLLU firmly stand for the bringing of international cooperation and awareness through education and the discussion of the issues raised by capitalist hegemony which the RL mainstream media systematically fail to report. SLLU believe that by avoiding authoritarian teacher- pupil models of education and based on peoples actual experiences and continued shared investigation, every human being, no matter how impoverished or illiterate, can develop a new awareness of self which will free them to be more than passive objects responding to uncontrollable change. As Freire said, and SLLU agree, each individual wins back the right to say his or own word - to name the world.”

[03:06 AM] Agnes Sharple: exactly

[03:06 AM] Plot Tracer: Education - and immersion in discussion and experience of discourse and action in sl is all part of this educational experience

[03:07 AM] Plot Tracer: this is why some of us began the group SLLU
[03:08 AM] Plot Tracer: I think there is a place for the demonstrations and the expression of unreasonable views as well - because people then realise there are counter views which are as valid. They learn then, how to strengthen their views with evidence and then how to express them reasonably

[03:09 AM] Agnes Sharple: this is why i like the group, its not some small (minded) group where everyone have to agree with the founder of group

[03:09 AM] Plot Tracer: yes
[03:10 AM] Plot Tracer: though it was difficult to make people realise this. When we first started people *assumed* we were some sort of stalinist pre-1989 eastern European style group!

[03:10 AM] Agnes Sharple: hahah
[03:11 AM] Agnes Sharple: ppl "assume" a lot in SL, jumping to conclusions without getting the information

[03:11 AM] Plot Tracer: yes
[03:12 AM] Agnes Sharple: not only in SL..
[03:12 AM] Plot Tracer: true!

[03:13 AM] Agnes Sharple: but I’ve seen a lot of it in sl, maybe because of language issues
[03:13 AM] Plot Tracer: perhaps - and because a lot of communication is quickly typed...

Amnesty International (E)

[03:13 AM] Plot Tracer: Oh
[03:14 AM] Plot Tracer: by the way - I see you are in Amnesty international (SL) -
[03:14 AM] Plot Tracer: this group is not the real amnesty group
[03:14 AM] Agnes Sharple: no?
[03:14 AM] Plot Tracer: it was set up by someone who asked for donations and then left sl with lots of money

[03:14 AM] Agnes Sharple: wtf
[03:14 AM] Plot Tracer: the real one is the other one in my profile

[03:14 AM] Plot Tracer: Amnesty (E)

[03:14 AM] Agnes Sharple: i left
[03:14 AM] Agnes Sharple: now
[03:15 AM] Plot Tracer: cool. join the other one
[03:15 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh okey

[03:15 AM] Agnes Sharple: 'you are in that group too?
[03:15 AM] Plot Tracer: Millay Freschi set it up - she is running it on behalf of the real Amnesty
[03:15 AM] Plot Tracer: yes - i am in it to tell people it's history. When i notice people are in it, i tell them.
[03:16 AM] Plot Tracer: i send out im's sometimes as well.
[03:16 AM] Agnes Sharple: ic:)
[03:16 AM] Agnes Sharple: thank you
[03:17 AM] Plot Tracer: np :)

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Tuesday, 15 March 2011

SLLU Discussion - Libyan No Fly Zone

Present: Plot Tracer; Nadia Lane (who has published a report HERE; Ingela Lubitsch; Agnes Sharple; Kay Uggla; Eliza Madrigal; Monarchy Republic; Trent Infinity; Ilsa Hesse. (others came late - and i have not included their remarks as most of the core discussion group had left when they arrived)

Palmindan Whybrow sent this superb resource after the meeting:  "I think the full interview with Noam Chomsky on newsnight is a really good resource" 
("I cannot recommend this strongly enough" - Plot Tracer)

Plot Tracer, Nadia Lane and Kay Uggla at the discussion.  Photo: Nadia Lane

[2011/03/14 07:07] Plot Tracer: this was the view of one member who cant come
(from Concord Mesmer)
To No-Fly or Not to no fly
The question is whether to enforce “no-fly zone” or not! The deeper question is can (or the moral, should) we use State Sponsored Terrorism against State Sponsored Terrorism.
Set a Thief to Catch a Thief
Historically, the question, with the solution is clear, well understood and repeated ad infinitum. From Bosnia to Iraq we have the case of an out-on-control government trying to (or perceived as trying to) control a restive province by perceptionally enough force that raises international eyebrows. A civil war follows and the government forces use air-power that perceives to tilt the balance against the rebel side. The UN or similar competent authority provides a legal cover to enforce a “no-fly zone” for the Global Sheriff (or an approved deputy) to enforce a “no-fly zone” wherein the government cannot fly un-approved aircraft in that zone. The result is a perceived equality in the war zone.
Please note the repeated use of the word perception.
The Case For: Ending the Metternich-ian Order.
At the end of the Napoleonic Wars (sorry World War II), the need for maintaining global stability arose. To the mix, there were two important ingredients added: (a) rise of the “petrochemical industry” (those who think Oil is all about cheap gasoline/petrol please read-up something on the fractional-distillation column and its pervasive control on human existence today); (b) the need for a safe haven for an extremely prosecuted religious minority supported by a post-WW-II Duopoly.
To create this Safe Haven, it was needed to physically expel the “indigenous tribes” from the land and create a buffer zone. Clearly, while the mechanism in the UN supported this misadventure, local support was clearly absent. Furthermore these “indigenous tribes” created enough international support for themselves.
In this backdrop Count Metternich’s polices are paramount. According to Metternich, parliamentary government and constitutional monarchy cannot be put in places where they had no historical roots; he insisted on the need for continuity with the past and orderly, organic development. Liberalism must be thrown out of the window and replaced with a network or alliances to protect continuity and order.
Hence came the modern “congress of Vienna”. We allowed a set of local despots to continue their despotism provided they (a) keep the oil taps run and (b) support the “safe have” in acts while they can say anything against it to provide an illusion for the restive population.

The revolutions of 1848 (sorry 2011) upset the apple cart. Despite intense Lobbying from Israel & Saudi Arabia, Egypt was allowed to be overturned. Then came Libya, where Gaddafi has set his tribes to battle the other tribes in a situation going towards a civil war.
The author comes from a democratic republic (and a very large one at that!), which established itself as one after the Colonial Rule, with an extremely feudal history. Accordingly, he questions the very soul of Metternich and his ideals. A democratic republic based on liberal ideals is very much in order.
Will it be helped, merely, by imposing a “no-fly zone”? If that happens, and that is a big if, we support the “no-fly zone” in Libya? But there is one important thing. If Libya fails then the Arab spring fails.

The Case Against: The Imperium and its Citizens
Should the Imperium intervene? First, it is not clear, that a “no fly zone” or NFZ per se would be enough to defeat the Libyan forces. The author feels that there are “vested interests” behind Gaddafi – even though they hate him – because “a crow does not eat crow’s meat”. So the problems posed by NFZ would be circumvented!
Secondly, who will “bell the cat”. The Imperium is involved deeply in Iraq. The war in Afghanistan (or what this author would like to sarcastically note, the “fourth anglo-afghan war”) is entering the 11th year.
The Imperium is broke, partially due to the wars and more so for its fiscal mismanagement. Furthermore it is wary about entering a third war.
Looking at the plight of its citizens, it is also unfair to lead the Imperium to another war when the Imperium has demonstrated its complete lack of understanding about the running a war to a successful conclusion.
The author took an interview of some of his Arabian Friends and it seemed that they do not wish for the Imperium to intervene. This is more for philosophical reasons than political reasons.

The Final Opinion
The Road of History is towards Liberalism. Inside the Imperium there is a clash between the
Metternich-ian “Tories” and the liberal “Whigs”. The Whigs want the destruction of the Order while the Tories wish to maintain it (though their supporting words are becoming more garbled to the point of entertaining).
The No Fly zone is not going to be a sufficient condition for the overthrow of the despised leader but it is going to play a part. The Libyans must overthrow the regime and must continue the process of Arab Spring.

[2011/03/14 07:15] Nadia Lane: Concord did a nice job of laying his ideas out
[2011/03/14 07:16] Plot Tracer: OK - the discussion is on how the left should react to the calls for a no fly zone in Libya. who would like to start us off?
[2011/03/14 07:16] Nadia Lane: it's nice that conversations like this can include texts and spontaneous chat
[2011/03/14 07:17] Nadia Lane: Can I say that I am in a dilemma
[2011/03/14 07:17] Agnes Sharple: i think this is very complex and difficult subject and im limited because my english is poor, but i understand a lot more than i can actually express personaly, so id refer to listen mostly if you are okey with that:)
[2011/03/14 07:17] Nadia Lane: on the one hand, I'm against intervention in countries for oil
[2011/03/14 07:17] Nadia Lane: on the other hand, when there are human rights catastrophes occuring under our noses, how can we not act?
[2011/03/14 07:18] Plot Tracer: true.

[2011/03/14 07:19] Plot Tracer: I actually had thought... knowing what we know of guernicca, would we not have had a no fly zone over Euskadi in 1936? but i guess the thing is, there would not have been a no fly zone there, because euskadi has no oil.
[2011/03/14 07:22] Plot Tracer: A friend of mine said to me, "if you could look a libyan in tha face and say why you would not like a no fly zone while his family are bombed, then... well you know.
[2011/03/14 07:22] Plot Tracer: But the fact is, these people - the Libyan people, have been bombed by the US and the UK before.

[2011/03/14 07:22] Kay Uggla: yea
[2011/03/14 07:22] Agnes Sharple: yes
[2011/03/14 07:23] Agnes Sharple: but what can we do?
[2011/03/14 07:23] Kay Uggla: i think it is a matter of who we think is the right Libya
[2011/03/14 07:23] Kay Uggla: Gafaffis or the others
[2011/03/14 07:23] Agnes Sharple: their both Libyans
[2011/03/14 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/14 07:24] Kay Uggla: and if there should be any actions against either side
[2011/03/14 07:24] Kay Uggla: then there would always be a lot of mighty voices against and for
[2011/03/14 07:24] Agnes Sharple: of course
[2011/03/14 07:24] Kay Uggla: and we europeans are hiding behind UN
[2011/03/14 07:25] Plot Tracer: and one notices today that there are no cries for a "no fly zone" in bahrain as the saudis have just invaded it
[2011/03/14 07:25] Kay Uggla: yes
[2011/03/14 07:25] Kay Uggla: and what would the other non democratic countries say to that
[2011/03/14 07:25] Kay Uggla: what about china
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: or russia
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: when they invaded the smaller countries around
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: like tibet
[2011/03/14 07:26] Plot Tracer: yep. I would also say - where is the call for intervention in other theatres of war?
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: ??
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: it is a tricky questions for sure
[2011/03/14 07:27] Eliza Madrigal: the instability of the unknowns and potentials...
[2011/03/14 07:27] Nadia Lane: to comment on Plot's point above, we know that Libya was behind Lockerbie, and so technically Libya has committed aggressive acts before
[2011/03/14 07:27] Nadia Lane: Gaddafi = Libya
[2011/03/14 07:27] Kay Uggla: but my heart is for a heavy and mighty non flyingzone
[2011/03/14 07:27] Kay Uggla: and intervention on the side of the rebels
[2011/03/14 07:27] Plot Tracer: well - we don’t know that Libya was behind ~Lockerbie... some would say it wasn’t.
[2011/03/14 07:28] Kay Uggla: that is history
[2011/03/14 07:28] Agnes Sharple: didn’t they admit it?
[2011/03/14 07:28] Plot Tracer: no they didn’t admit it
[2011/03/14 07:28] Kay Uggla: real politics is about energy
[2011/03/14 07:28] Eliza Madrigal: yes well that is the rationale for removing other dictators...
[2011/03/14 07:28] Kay Uggla: and much more so tomorrow after the Japanese tragedies
[2011/03/14 07:28] Plot Tracer: Kay - i tend to agree with you - this is about energy.
[2011/03/14 07:29] Plot Tracer: but i am not so sure about intervention.
[2011/03/14 07:29] Kay Uggla: well if we were for intervention here the we would say yes to help the Tibetans
[2011/03/14 07:29] Plot Tracer: it would not follow.
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: and the other state around the world
[2011/03/14 07:30] Nadia Lane: The Telegraph UK, March 14th: Quote: In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, the head of the provisional rebel government in Benghazi and Libya’s former justice minister, said he had evidence of Gaddafi's involvement in the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: China has invaded Tibet
[2011/03/14 07:30] Plot Tracer: yes Nadia - but this is suspect... the evidence has not been forthcoming.
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: and they want to be free form china
[2011/03/14 07:30] Plot Tracer: yes, Kay

[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: so why not make a non flying zone over tibet
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: :): m? and invade it
[2011/03/14 07:31] Plot Tracer: but - to say that if we were to support a no fly zone in libya, then we shold support an uprising in tibet in the same way
[2011/03/14 07:31] Kay Uggla: oh sorry i meant liberate it
[2011/03/14 07:31] Kay Uggla: ?
[2011/03/14 07:31] Plot Tracer: does not follow. Tibet perhaps could be the subject of another discussion.
[2011/03/14 07:32] Kay Uggla: liberate all invaded countries and help any revolutionary forces to get rid of their old dictators
[2011/03/14 07:32] Kay Uggla: :)
[2011/03/14 07:32] Kay Uggla: not just Libya
[2011/03/14 07:32] Agnes Sharple: :)

[2011/03/14 07:32] Nadia Lane: it's not just my heart that tells me that a no fly zone is a must. It’s the fact that Gaddafi called his people "cockroaches." I'm sorry, these are people we are talking about and nobody has the right to kill people like they are animals (and I'm also into animal rights to so that expression is repugnant to me). But we're talking about an evil dictator here. Isn't it our moral imperative?
[2011/03/14 07:33] Plot Tracer: why would this not be seen by the people of Libya as white, western, Christian imperial meddling? And do you think the people of Libya - those who want rid of gadaffi - would trust the west?
[2011/03/14 07:34] Agnes Sharple: that’s a good question, I’m not sure i would if i was a Libyan
[2011/03/14 07:34] Nadia Lane: The people of Libya, the rebels, are pleading for a no fly zone. That makes it not meddling

[2011/03/14 07:34] Eliza Madrigal: interventions can make big messes with even the best of intentions
[2011/03/14 07:34] Nadia Lane: they want an even playing field against Gaddaffi's small but well armed force
[2011/03/14 07:34] Plot Tracer: no - this is not true, nadia. there are SOME voices asking for a no fly zone - and some saying no.
[2011/03/14 07:34] Eliza Madrigal: layers and layers of agendas in plays when countries step in
[2011/03/14 07:34] Plot Tracer: the western media tends to show the voices they want to.
[2011/03/14 07:35] Plot Tracer: yes eliza
[2011/03/14 07:35] Nadia Lane: the rebel leaders who represent the rebels and people want a no fly zone
[2011/03/14 07:35] Plot Tracer: no, nadia - this is not true.
[2011/03/14 07:35] Plot Tracer: most of the rebel leaders on the ground are telling the west to stay out of it

[2011/03/14 07:36] Nadia Lane: i read articles in which they say this
[2011/03/14 07:37] Nadia Lane: Bloomberg, March 14th Quote: "We have asked the United Nations to impose a no-fly zone,” Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, spokesman and deputy head of the Libyan opposition’s Benghazi-based Interim Transitional National Council, said at a news conference on March 8. “We expect them to do it. They can do it to stop the carnage.”
[2011/03/14 07:38] Nadia Lane: where is your evidence that they are not calling for a no fly zone and for the west to just stay out of it?

[2011/03/14 07:38] Ilsa Hesse: the Arab League has called for a no fly zone, and the rebels are more inclined after recent losses... the question is, does a no fly zone need American fighters. Egypt for instance has an air force that could handle everything except for the AWACS work.
[2011/03/14 07:38] Plot Tracer: yes - the western media are reporting rebels as saying this - but a lot of the rebel leaders are telling the West to stay out. this is also the case in Afghanistan - where the media here paint a picture of the west liberating women etc, when they do the opposite and the afghani people actually wanting the west out. (read malalai Joya)
[2011/03/14 07:39] Plot Tracer: the arab league, surely, is controlled by the oil lobby?

[2011/03/14 07:40] Ilsa Hesse: the Arab League is controlled by the Arab governments... we can look for ghosts behind any door... there are lots of reasons to let the people of Libya down...
[2011/03/14 07:40] Nadia Lane: Plot, that's not evidence, i'm sorry, do you have a quote with Rebel leaders saying, "Stay OUT!"? I haven't seen one and I read a lot of news.
[2011/03/14 07:40] Plot Tracer: as i said at the start - we either see this as a Guernica - to step in - or we see it as an Afghanistan - an intervention to impose a western corporation friendly regime

[2011/03/14 07:41] Ilsa Hesse: (by the way, CNN and the AP both have articles about the rebel leaders wanting a no fly zone...)
[2011/03/14 07:41] Ilsa Hesse: as does HuffPost
[2011/03/14 07:42] Plot Tracer: http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7841
[2011/03/14 07:44] Plot Tracer: page down to commment 8 - which gives a good analysis of Libya.
[2011/03/14 07:44] Plot Tracer: I would say that the last time the west imposed a no fly zone, was in iraq
[2011/03/14 07:44] Plot Tracer: this actually added to the suffering of the Iraqipeople
[2011/03/14 07:44] Nadia Lane: omg, Gaddaffi is a dictator who has been syphoning off -- stealing from his people -- oil profits.
[2011/03/14 07:45] Nadia Lane: He kills indiscriminately and has no respect for human life
[2011/03/14 07:45] Nadia Lane: He just wants to be in power and for his kids to lead and live in decadence
[2011/03/14 07:45] Nadia Lane: He's stuffed away billions in foreign banks
[2011/03/14 07:45] Plot Tracer: and as far as oil is concerned - Libya had the cheapest oil in the region. even richer Tunisians used to buy oil illegally from Libya - smuggle it across the border
[2011/03/14 07:46] Ilsa Hesse: partof the reason for a no fly zone is the slow down his bringing in of outside mercenaries to fight his war...
[2011/03/14 07:46] Nadia Lane: I don't see how anybody could saying have Gaddafi in power is morally superior to intervening -- I take the opposite perspective that it's what the Libyans want

[2011/03/14 07:46] Plot Tracer: other problems with what is happening in libya is that it is one of the most developed and equal societies in the whole African continent... will a no fly zone and the support of a protracted civil war continue this?
[2011/03/14 07:47] Ilsa Hesse: since most media says the leadership of the rebels want outside _air_ support... he is fighting an unjust war against his people... and he is bringing in outside mercenaries via plane to do it... I see no reason to not have someone have a no fly zone
[2011/03/14 07:47] Monarchy Republic: sorry im late ..consensus reached ?
[2011/03/14 07:48] Plot Tracer: no :)
[2011/03/14 07:48] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, so, inside of a protracted civil war, are you willing to see the People of Libya fail?
[2011/03/14 07:48] Ilsa Hesse: (instead, not inside)
[2011/03/14 07:48] Plot Tracer: i think tho - this is not as cut and dried as yes - lets go in or no lets not.
[2011/03/14 07:48] Monarchy Republic: i agree bombing anyone is wrong ...but I’m skeptical have been from the start ...
[2011/03/14 07:48] Plot Tracer: i think we need to know exactly what the Libyan people want - not just BP.

[2011/03/14 07:49] Monarchy Republic: just get a feeling Gaddafi is playing 'a bad ogre ' role
[2011/03/14 07:49] Monarchy Republic: what about his son ?
[2011/03/14 07:49] Monarchy Republic: two are military, but the other is moderate
[2011/03/14 07:50] Ilsa Hesse: well, it seems the Libyan leadership is saying "yes, air support, no, no ground support"... the guy is murdering people... that makes it pretty cut and dry in my eyes... does the party have a different view about how to handle dictators who kill workers now than they used to?
[2011/03/14 07:50] Monarchy Republic: yep ..Killing people just about decides it for me ...
[2011/03/14 07:50] Ilsa Hesse accepted your inventory offer.
[2011/03/14 07:51] Plot Tracer: did everyone get the press release?
(I passed this Press Release to those present) - From: The All African People Revolutionary Party

Date: February 27, 2011 (Anniversary of the courageous battle the Oglala Sioux nation to protect and defend Wound Knee , 1973)


Libya is not Egypt and all rebellions are not Revolutions!
Hands off Libya, hands off Africa-the Masses will dictate the Revolution!

Revolutionaries must be vigilant observers and mindful of the components of revolution versus reform or simple rebellion. We must also never be quick to take sides or forget our history and the role and objectives of Imperialism over the interest of the Masses of the People.

What we have seen in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya today is a reflection of the continued development of the class struggle in Africa. President Kwame Nkrumah provided a rich and comprehensive analysis in his book ‘Class Struggle in Africa’ to lay our political foundation for understanding what has and is happening today. He correctly stated that the proletariat in Africa although relatively small will be the base for building a socialist revolution. He also correctly stated that although america and europe are the most industrialized in the world, their working class is the most embourgeoised thus the most socially and politically backward. Why would the west and europe be so interested in the rebellions occurring in North Africa and the Middle East today? Could it be the oil and geo political imperialist interests for continued global domination especially to protect the imperialist strongest ally zionist israel?

That is exactly the intent of the imperialist powers in supporting these rebellions amongst the growing educated and working class population in Africa and the Middle East. The global imperialist economies rely on the material and human resources and potential capacity of Africa, the Middle East and the americas and therefore the potential of the working class movements becoming socialist especially within Africa would topple the financial markets of america and europe and end the welfare that provides security and sustenance to israel!

Although the rebellions in North Africa namely, Egypt, and Tunisia and in the Middle East are making headway, and even have had partial success in removing imperialist puppets like Hosni Mubarak and the Tunisian president Ben Ali, which they should be congratulated for, it does not guarantee the dismantling of the feudal or neocolonialist regimes that continue to hold power. No matter how much imperialist ideology and their mass media attempt to make everything appear to be about this individual head of state or that individual leader, the neo-colonial servants defending the illegitimate foreign interests of u.s. and european imperialism is much more extensive and elaborate than one person. The masses of workers, women, men and youth must continue to organize themselves into a force for permanent socialist reconstruction.

Once, Egypt stood as one of the most anti- imperialist nations in Africa. ‘In the early 1920s, industrialized areas in Africa like Egypt, South Africa, Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia had strong working class movements and this is where Africa’s first communist parties emerged. By 1962, it was estimated that Africa held at minimum 15 million industrial workers and these organized workers played a significant role in the liberation movements.’(Class Struggle in Africa,pg 64)
In Egypt, President Gamal Nasser represented the aspirations of the Egyptian, African and the oppressed masses of the world. Egypt’s membership in the Casablanca group with Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana, Seku Ture of Guinea, and Modibo Keita of Mali put them in the forefront of the struggle for One Unified Socialist Africa.

But since the death of President Nasser, the global imperialist led by america and israel has been relentless in pushing its plans for geo political domination of that region, which includes the long standing colonization of Palestine for israeli interest and allowing the Suez Canal to become the waterway for imperialist war maneuvers and the imperialist military gateway to impose its will against Africa and the Middle East as demonstrated in Somalia, Sudan, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.

On the other hand, Libya has been for many years staunchly anti imperialist since its revolutionary coop in 1969 when Col. Gadhafi and the cadre of the People’s republic created the present state of Libya bringing the Jamahiriya (“State of the Masses”) to power.

Where Egypt had exploited its working class and failed to develop the country or provide resources to its people, making only its elite including military leaders rich with billions of dollars in aid paid by the imperialist, revolutionary Libya at its birth in 1969 had nationalized its oil and used it in the development of the country. The Libyan people benefited from the wealth of its nation the provision of public education, medical care, housing and full participation in all aspects of Libyan life. Libya is Africa’s leading anti imperialist force and she supported many of the movements throughout Africa and the world. Libya has been on course towards a socialist state through the Jamahiriya.

Egypt continued to exploit its masses deterring any collective formation of opposition outside of its unions. It treated its Nubian and peasant populations like a slave force while making rich the military and police force which along with the chosen tribal or clan leaders, they became the petit bourgeois class that defended the imperialist and zionist interest.

Committed like its flag to make green its economy and the neglected Sahara desert, Libya worked towards the technological development of the country and its people benefited. The real battle for Libya has been against its global imperialist enemies who have gone to no lengths to plant agents and conspirators to overturn the revolution of the People. We know the zionist and their imperialist partners continue to plot and conspire to control both the politics and economics of North Africa and the Middle East. Is there any doubt why Benghazi was chosen as the base of revolt since the Libyan oil industry is controlled from that region?

Libya like the rest of Africa, must protect its resources and its people must defend it even with their lives!

We must be watchful of imperialist tactics as their machinations for domination of Africa has never changed!

The All African People’s Revolutionary Party maintained a strong relationship with Libya over the last 30 years and we continue to stand firmly in support of the Libyan people and the revolution of the Jamahiriya.

Because of Libya’s revolutionary stand in support of African and indigenous peoples struggles and its position against imperialist aggression, it was the AAPRP who partnered with other committed Pan Africanist, nationalist and progressive organizations like the Nation of Islam and the American Indian Movement to break the ban against travel to Libya from1985-1990. Libya has been an active partner in building relationships with all justice loving indigenous peoples supporting our strategies for liberation, unity and solidarity.

Libya has hosted tens of hundreds of worldwide conferences and programs to build international solidarity for Pan indigenous struggles for liberation in its 40 years. Leaders from Africa, Central and South America such as Daniel Ortega, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales and Hugo Chavez have all given their revolutionary support and concern for the people of Libya and President Gadhafi.

And for her anti imperialist and pro socialist stance, she paid a heavy price. Enduring economic and political embargos and isolation, the Libyan people persevered and continued to build their nation and support other revolutionary forces. The American imperialist government even went so far as to strike Libyan territory by bombing her while dignitaries including President Rawlings of Ghana were visiting. Imperialist bombs killed the young daughter of President Gadhafi’s and injured many others. This was done without provocation and without apology!

Although over the last few years, Libya has through its own defense, taken a more conservative position to avoid out right military invasion from the west, she continued to support Africa’s liberation and Unity and the worldwide struggle for socialist development. It was President Gadhafi who took up the mantle held by President Kwame Nkrumah to call for the United States of Africa. He has been the key advocate for a united Africa and restructuring of the African Union. The Libyan people have been on the right side of the struggle for truth, justice, socialist ideals and the People’s Revolution and therefore she has always been a target for imperialist aggression.

Leaders from Africa, Central and South America such as Daniel Ortega, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales and Hugo Chavez have all given their revolutionary support and concern for the people of Libya and President Gadhafi.

If we believe in the Socialist revolution and the components of dialectical change, we know that the people of Libya who have survived embargos and bans, who have been bombed and ridiculed in the world wide imperialist press, who have built their nation brick by brick and with the green book as their guide, committed to revolutionary ideological and political ideals, will not wash away that history for western democracy. They will address the contradictions within their nation and bring forward the Socialist revolution. Political positions against the masses in Tunisia and Egypt and other issues related to Africa’s move towards liberation and unity may cause question of Libya’s leadership but one does not throw out the baby with the bath water. The people are the foundation of all revolutions and therefore, we must stand with the People to bring forth the Mass revolution required to guarantee their existence.

In President Nkrumah’s Class Struggle in Africa, he reminds us, “ the basis of revolution is created when the organic structure and conditions in a given society have aroused the mass consent (or discontent) and mass desire for positive action to change or transform that society. Socialist revolution is impossible without the use of force. Revolutionary violence is a fundamental law in revolutionary struggles. “

The journey for Socialism is not a clear or easy and it comes at a high cost. The enemy will not surrender unless forced and it requires the organization, unity and determination of the masses of the people to bring the enemies of the people to their knees. What we are witnessing today will require more than a rebellion. It will require a mass based and well organized long term Revolution. Libyans must be aware that their independence and liberty is not secure especially under a pro western style democracy and must resist any capitulation to change their politics.

Only they can learn that lesson and we believe they are experienced enough to know who their enemies are. They must also know that until the rest of Africa is liberated, united and socialist, no territory in Africa is secure.

Our duty is to support the masses and encourage their full participation in the Libyan and African revolution. We must also protest any move towards sanctions against Libya and demand the imperialist stay out of Africa. Absolutely no military invasion!

This is what distinguishes revolution from rebellion in Africa, a commitment to rid the continent of all forms of imperialism (settler-colonialism, neo-colonialism and zionism); to liberate Africa’s resources for development of its empowered people under a unified government that moves to protect the people from nation/class/gender oppression.

We call upon all Pan African, progressive, socialist and pro human organizations and individuals to voice their opposition to any military intervention.

Organize mass demonstrations. Send press releases and let the world know that we will not stand by quietly while the imperialist/zionist forces orchestrate a military invasion or sanctions against Libya under any circumstances least of all under the guise of democracy!

We stand with the people of Libyan Jamahiriya to take full responsibility for the defense of their revolution. At the same time, we must be vigilant and keep a watchful eye on the continued goings on in Tunisia and Egypt as imperialist forces in the west also try to use this media frenzy over Libya while working to reconsolidate neo-colonial control over those other areas of Africa.

Hands off Africa! No military intervention, no economic or political sanctions against the Libyan nation!
Africa must be free, united and socialist.
We stand Ready for Revolution

[2011/03/14 07:51] Monarchy Republic: just feel we are being constantly screwed to the point I’m maybe seeing things that aren’t there
[2011/03/14 07:51] Ilsa Hesse: thanks Plot, but I am not sure I understand what an _American_ group has to say about Libya ?
[2011/03/14 07:52] Plot Tracer: it is an African group
[2011/03/14 07:52] Monarchy Republic: or British
[2011/03/14 07:53] Monarchy Republic: we always send Special Forces to make sure the Ex Patriots are okay ,dont we :P
[2011/03/14 07:53] Agnes Sharple: good notecard, from what I’ve read so far, that’s exactly what I’d say about it all

[2011/03/14 07:53] Ilsa Hesse: it is an African group that has branches in "many US States" ... I am not sure if that says much for their view on Libya... nor does the fact that their leadership is from Ghana... my roots are German, but I am not sure that gives me a right to decide France's future...
[2011/03/14 07:54] Monarchy Republic: my friend went raving in Goa and the MOD sent a platoon of commandos see he could go to Varinasi :s ...not!!
[2011/03/14 07:54] Plot Tracer: It is an all African congress. There are representatives from all over Africa. And none of them profit from oil.
[2011/03/14 07:54] Monarchy Republic: not oil...Offshore Mediterranean gas drilling
[2011/03/14 07:55] Monarchy Republic: but then as far as gas is concerned...is it better to be held ransom by Russian oligarchs

[2011/03/14 07:55] Plot Tracer: Well, we could have said back in 1989, "why should we listen to the ANC - they don't have a leadership within South Africa"... you know?
[2011/03/14 07:56] Monarchy Republic: because Botha made the ANC -the chosen ones ?
[2011/03/14 07:56] Plot Tracer: well - at least the oligarchs are up front - they are profiteers. the west are running the pretence at being concerned about the people of the oil nations in the middle east. where is the no fly zone in palestine?
[2011/03/14 07:56] Ilsa Hesse: (P.S. when you dont have a web page outside of a defunct AOL page, and a page hosted by Columbia University... you are probably not a person people should listen to about Libya... just saying...)
[2011/03/14 07:57] Agnes Sharple: i think we must be careful not to play the so-called superior western inference, its a question of where to draw the line
[2011/03/14 07:57] Monarchy Republic: yes...Its everyone’s world...And we are entitled to a voice...

[2011/03/14 07:58] Monarchy Republic: but where community is concerned...I’m not sure why the advisors have to be US /European ALL the time
[2011/03/14 07:58] Ilsa Hesse: Plot... they had leadership IN AFRICA at least... come on, please tell me that wasn’t an honest attempt to compare these guys at the "All African People's Revolutionary Party" to something like the ANC?
[2011/03/14 07:58] Plot Tracer: Well - the AAPR have ANC members within it.
[2011/03/14 07:59] Ilsa Hesse: oh? You can show me where that is?
[2011/03/14 07:59] Plot Tracer: And the ANC leadership was outside Sth Africa. And in fact for a long time, Inkatha (sorry sp) were being hailed as the leaders of the black people in sth Africa (imho in order to split sth Africans)
[2011/03/14 08:00] Monarchy Republic: as far as a can see this whole thing is about immigration
[2011/03/14 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: yes, but across the border in another country is a tad bit different than hanging out on American college campuses ...

[2011/03/14 08:00] Monarchy Republic: another North African border post
[2011/03/14 08:00] Plot Tracer: at the moment, no Ilsa. But I have friends - Africans - in Glasgow who are members. I will get their website and details and pass them on to you.
[2011/03/14 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: well, till then I think we should go with what we can prove.
[2011/03/14 08:01] Plot Tracer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-African_Peoples_Revolutionary_Party
[2011/03/14 08:01] Ilsa Hesse: and what we can prove is that the ANC is a real organization, and the AARP is nothing more than a dream that failed and keeps getting pushed once in awhile
[2011/03/14 08:01] Plot Tracer: http://www.aaprp-intl.org/
[2011/03/14 08:01] Ilsa Hesse: yes, Plot, read the page... I am already there... that is where I got the information about Columbia University, etc
[2011/03/14 08:02] Monarchy Republic: reality is a good litmus test...and pragmatism for me is a winner every time
[2011/03/14 08:02] Plot Tracer: Ilsa - I KNOW people - Africans - in this organisation. As i said - i will get you details and pass them on to you. It is an organisation that exists and has branches all over the world - like the ANC did - and like other revolutionary movements do.
[2011/03/14 08:03] Monarchy Republic: you create a line in the sand and someone will stand on the other side of it, simply to be intimidating

[2011/03/14 08:03] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, I know people who were in the ANC...
[2011/03/14 08:03] Plot Tracer: The All-African People’s Revolutionary Party (AAPRP) is a permanent, independent, revolutionary, socialist, Pan-African Political Party based in Africa, the just homeland of African People all over the world. It is an integral part of the Pan-African and world socialist revolutionary movement. The AAPRP understands that “all people of African descent, whether they live in North or South America, the Caribbean, or in any other part of the world, are Africans and belong to the African Nation”. (Kwame Nkrumah,
[2011/03/14 08:03] Plot Tracer: Ilsa - as I do

[2011/03/14 08:03] Ilsa Hesse: Monarchy, if you are speaking of me, I don’t think "intimidating" is the correct word... more a difference of opinion...
[2011/03/14 08:03] Nadia Lane: Monarchy, that's interesting, how is this about immigration? Could you clarify, how so? Thank you

[2011/03/14 08:04] Monarchy Republic: just subjectively
[2011/03/14 08:04] Monarchy Republic: I don’t practically think the idea of any party is good
[2011/03/14 08:05] Monarchy Republic: just everyone realise we are in the same boat ...things need sorting ..and we need to get along ..face it ..stop pretending we don’t know better and GET ON WITH IT!!! :)

[at this point Ilsa and I went in to discussion in private IM. Ilsa has given me permission to publish this]

[2011/03/14 08:05] Ilsa Hesse: no. I am saying that it should be the people on the ground to make the decision, not a group that is not there, or has a "branch office " there... we are speaking of a place where the _dictator_ is bombing and shooting at his people...
[2011/03/14 08:07] Plot Tracer: absolutely - i agree it should be the people on the ground. the fact is, we are only hearing what our press is putting out. (Al jazeera interview people who say no to a no fly zone every day - but BBC CNN etc etc are ignoring these people... why?)
[2011/03/14 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: I believe in the rights of the people to decide their course... and that if they ask, it is the obligation of others to help them gain that course... not to worry whether we will offend some dictator, or our actions may be spun to be disagreeable to someone...
[2011/03/14 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: have you heard of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?
[2011/03/14 08:07] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/03/14 08:07] Plot Tracer: why would I?
[2011/03/14 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: they were Americans and Canadians that fought against the fascists in Spain...
[2011/03/14 08:08] Ilsa Hesse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_Brigade
[2011/03/14 08:08] Plot Tracer: cool. like La Quinte Brigada from Scotland and Ireland (i am in Scotland)
[2011/03/14 08:09] Ilsa Hesse: there are times when it is the duty of every human being to protect those being oppressed or tortured... this is one of those times.
[2011/03/14 08:09] Ilsa Hesse: yes, exactly like that
[2011/03/14 08:09] Plot Tracer: but would the people of the Abraham Lincoln brigade - or la quinte brigada have called for the imperialist powers to bomb euskadi?
[2011/03/14 08:09] Plot Tracer: because that is what a no fly zone is...
[2011/03/14 08:10] Plot Tracer: to impose it you must bomb strategic targets in order to stop the Gadaffi planes from flying - like Iraq
[2011/03/14 08:10] Ilsa Hesse: they were allied with many groups that believed in many similar things... not all people that fought for the Republicans were Red. they would have seen that there are times when justice must be had, even at the risk of dirty hands.
[2011/03/14 08:10] Plot Tracer: and what happened in Iraq? the no fly zone stopped medicines etc from getting to the people of Iraq - Iraq was destroyed by the no fly zone before the invasion.
[2011/03/14 08:12] Ilsa Hesse: there are times when you must do what is right, even if it hurts. do I think the United States should decide the fate of Libya? NO>.. but I DO think that when the people of Libya come asking... begging... for our help, then I am no better than a butcher myself if I do not respond... including recognizing that my, and other governments may have something to offer...

[subsequently, Ilsa sent me this link]
[2011/03/14 17:19] Ilsa Hesse: (Saved Mon Mar 14 21:22:41 2011) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/14/libyan-rebel-leaders-gaddafi-benghazi
[2011/03/14 17:20] Ilsa Hesse: "no fly zone" is just like any other tool. it is only effective if used in the right spot and at the right time
[2011/03/14 17:24] Ilsa Hesse: the Israeli Air Force has about 200 F-15s and 300 or so F-16s and their own AWACS, a no fly zone would be going directly against Israel's strong suit
[2011/03/14 17:44] Plot Tracer: http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/2299/27/
[2011/03/14 17:45] Ilsa Hesse: as I said earlier, there are all sorts of good reasons to not act when others are in harms way
[2011/03/14 17:49] Plot Tracer: having lived in a war zone, yes, true. But sometimes intervention is not the right thing. This is not Bosnia - and in fact a no fly zone does not stop the war - it steps it up on the ground.
[2011/03/14 17:50] Ilsa Hesse: it does make it harder to import mercenaries, and it does make less dramatic footage of planes strafing school children
[2011/03/14 17:52] Plot Tracer: but does nothing about the more devastating ground warfare. and in fact, will stop med supplies etc in the way it did in Iraq. This is a convo that could go on and on. i would agree with a no fly zone - but with many caveats.
[2011/03/14 17:52] Ilsa Hesse: it will stop medical supplies if that is what the government on the ground wants, yes, that is true
[2011/03/14 17:53] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/14 17:54] Plot Tracer: at present, gadaffi - and esp gadaffis son does not want to completely isolate all of those in the rebel areas. So these things will still get through (in fact they have sent med supplies).
[2011/03/14 17:54] Ilsa Hesse nods
[Back to open convo]

[2011/03/14 08:05] IM: Ilsa Hesse: no. I am saying that it should be the people on the ground to make the decision, not a group that is not there, or has a "branch office " there... we are speaking of a place where the _dictator_ is bombing and shooting at his people...
[2011/03/14 08:06] Monarchy Republic: i know it isnt that easy ,though :(
[2011/03/14 08:07] IM: Ilsa Hesse: I believe in the rights of the people to decide their course... and that if they ask, it is the obligation of others to help them gain that course... not to worry whether we will offend some dictator, or our actions may be spun to be disagreeable to someone...

[2011/03/14 08:12] Plot Tracer: I think i want to wrap up now... this has been very interesting. a lot of differeing views . anyone want to sum up their view before we end?
[2011/03/14 08:12] IM: Ilsa Hesse: there are times when you must do what is right, even if it hurts. do I think the United States should decide the fate of Libya? NO>.. but I DO think that when the people of Libya come asking... begging... for our help, then I am no better than a butcher mysel fif I do not respond... including recognizing that my, and other governments may have something to offer...
[2011/03/14 08:12] Monarchy Republic: we are here - we love each other - lets make dinner :)
[2011/03/14 08:13] Eliza Madrigal: :)
[2011/03/14 08:13] Eliza Madrigal: thank you all for the discussion
[2011/03/14 08:14] Plot Tracer: by the way - before we end - if anyone has a suggestion for the next discussion - in the next week - please let me know :)

[2011/03/14 08:15] Monarchy Republic: lol ...how many needles and how big the haystack Plot :P
[2011/03/14 08:15] Nadia Lane laughs about dinner at breakfast time!
[2011/03/14 08:15] Monarchy Republic: :)
[2011/03/14 08:15] Agnes Sharple: its dinnertime here :)
[2011/03/14 08:15] Ilsa Hesse: thanks all, must go, working on a building project :-)
[2011/03/14 08:15] Monarchy Republic: tks Plot ...enjoy ..and eat fresco if possible ;)
[2011/03/14 08:20] IM: Nadia Lane: how would you sum up the convo today?
[2011/03/14 08:22] Plot Tracer: i would say that the people in the room were divided. [Most of] the left in the real world are calling for no intervention. I feel that is painted as a bad thing - but I think the western media and the interests of the west are really pushing this. i think we need to be careful with a no fly zone - it was a disaster for the people of Iraq.

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