...on socialism etc.
The people you meet in a Left Unity group may not always agree, but we are mostly singing off the same hymn sheet. This is the second in my "Conversations" series. If Left Unity is not about talking, what else is it for? Conversations educate - I come away from conversations with other people who have different views as me, hopefully, a more understanding activist.
[06:25 AM] Ilsa Hesse waves
[06:25 AM] Plot Tracer: hi ilsa! :)
[06:25 AM] Ilsa Hesse: how are you ?
[06:26 AM] Plot Tracer: aye - i am good :) you?
[06:26 AM] Ilsa Hesse: doing good actually, just woke up
[06:27 AM] Plot Tracer: where are u again in rl?
[06:27 AM] Ilsa Hesse: west coast
[06:27 AM] Plot Tracer: USA?
[06:27 AM] Ilsa Hesse: yes
[06:27 AM] Plot Tracer: aha.
[06:27 AM] Ilsa Hesse: you are in the UK?
[06:27 AM] Plot Tracer: I am in Scotland
[06:27 AM] Ilsa Hesse: England, no?
[06:27 AM] Ilsa Hesse: (was kidding with the England bit, I remembered it was Scotland)
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| Ilsa Hesse: "my opinion? anyone can be involved in anything... but if you are starting a movement based around the fact that there are "have nots" in the world, then the "haves" can not be the leadership..." |
[06:28 AM] Plot Tracer: now now!
[06:37 AM] Plot Tracer: hey u should join our other networks. the sllu feminist network meets every sunday - and the lgbti group are organising more stuff
[06:38 AM] Ilsa Hesse: right now I am kind of feeling around and deciding how much time I have for such things. give me a couple of weeks and I will join another maybe :-)
[06:38 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I enjoy doing stuff in RL too, lol
[06:44 AM] Plot Tracer: aye - ok - np regarding groups. Have u read our aims and principles (and some of the blog?)
[06:44 AM] Ilsa Hesse: no, sorry :-( I skimmed the group I think
[06:44 AM] Plot Tracer: ok - i think u should read the aims and principles. they were really painstakingly negotiated back in 2006/07...
[06:45 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I thought it odd to call a group SL Left Unity when it seemed to be mostly about socialism
[06:45 AM] Plot Tracer: no. it is a left anti capitalist unity group.
[06:45 AM] Plot Tracer: http://slleftunity.blogspot.com/2011/02/sllu-charter-and-aims-and-principles.html
[06:46 AM] Plot Tracer: tho socialism is a wide word that encapsulates a goal
[06:46 AM] Plot Tracer: no-one can say what socialism is... but many can argue their pov of what it should be
[06:46 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I believe in many things that your average socialist does, but I would not call myself a socialist.
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| Plot Tracer: "Our society needs to be more caring. Trusting in the markets to provide does not work - it is a leap of faith as big as hoping the Sun God will provide cash under our carpets" |
[06:47 AM] Plot Tracer: i'm happy with people calling themselves left anti capitlaist.
[06:48 AM] Plot Tracer: i call myself a socialist... because my aim in rl is to work with others (as i do) to find a system that replces capitalism which is inclusive, democratic and fair (not fairer - as fairer means someone loses out)
[06:49 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I think that there is a backlash amongst the American left against two people who represent "socialism" in America... the well off baby boomer who wants to be part of something , and the 20something college graduate who read the cliff notes of Marx and thinks s/he is going to take over the world...
[06:49 AM] Plot Tracer: my rl political party is made up of people across the anti capitlaist left - some dont call them selves socialist either :)
[06:49 AM] Plot Tracer: aha; yes
[06:50 AM] Plot Tracer: there are a lot of people who read a couple of lines of Marx, and join a cult that is made up of 15 people and a dog proclaiing themselves an "international" lol
[06:50 AM] Ilsa Hesse: exactly
[06:50 AM] Plot Tracer: but i have no problem with people across the classes saying they are socialists and fighting for a better world tbh
[06:51 AM] Ilsa Hesse: and they always show up at things and try to get involved in the middle of whatever it is, and end up fucking it up
[06:51 AM] Plot Tracer: yes
[06:51 AM] Ilsa Hesse: my opinion? anyone can be involved in anything... bjut if you are starting a movement based around the fact that there are "have nots" in the world, then the "haves" can not be the leadership...
[06:52 AM] Plot Tracer: i can agree with that ilsa. i hate "political classes" or people who have had no real experience of lie being elected as representatives in Parliament etc.
[06:53 AM] Ilsa Hesse: see, now, as an outsider, I would be annoyed if you got rid of the House of Lords... I would think it would cut in to your tourism :-)
[06:53 AM] Plot Tracer: our political party representatives are all working class people who if elected take the average workers wage rather than the huge salaries given out by legislative boards or parliaments etc
[06:53 AM] Plot Tracer: lol
[06:54 AM] Plot Tracer: keep the House of Lords, but get rid of the lords :)
[06:54 AM] Ilsa Hesse: lol
[06:54 AM] Plot Tracer: France’s biggest tourist attraction is the palace of Versaillesand there is no royalty in it
[06:55 AM] Plot Tracer: the Queen and her family are receiving state benefits of immense scale.
[06:55 AM] Ilsa Hesse: that is true
[06:56 AM] Plot Tracer: if she wants to have the title “queen" fair enough - and we can give her that ceremonial job if she wants it - but on average workers wage and living in a flat. She would be looked after like everyone else in a fair system.
[06:57 AM] Ilsa Hesse: see, now that is where we differ. I have no problem with capitalism in theory, it is what we have turned it in to that I don’t like... if Bill Gates wants to make a trillion dollars, more power to him... it is when someone does it by stomping on someone elses back that I get annoyed
[06:58 AM] Plot Tracer: but Bill Gates didn’t make his billions by NOT standing on someone’s back... and the fact is, he does not need that wealth... whilst wealth goes to him, it is coming from someone else.
[06:59 AM] Plot Tracer: and the queen made none of her wealth by breaking her back...
[06:59 AM] Plot Tracer: the world has limited wealth
[06:59 AM] Ilsa Hesse: God, what is the guy's name.. .uhm... something Prince, he is the guy that owns Blackwater... do you know how he got his money to start with?
[06:59 AM] Plot Tracer: while gates has billions, someone else scrapes a living on less than a dollar a day
[06:59 AM] Plot Tracer: no?
[07:00 AM] Ilsa Hesse: his father owned a company (sorry, can’t recall what they made) and he worked really hard, helped his employees improve their lives, and treated his company as a team... everyone made money... he just made more because it was his company and his ideas.
[07:01 AM] Plot Tracer: in like the idea of cooperatives.
[07:01 AM] Plot Tracer: but - he can’t have made the money off his own back.
[07:01 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I have no problem with him making more than his employees.,
[07:02 AM] Plot Tracer: and i firmly believe if ideas are helpful to people, then the idea should be owned by everyone. Look at what happened with the internet.
[07:03 AM] Ilsa Hesse: it is when people abuse their employees that I start to have an issue... not allowing fair wages, not helping them improve their lives, not giving benifits... any good employer knows that their employees are their biggest asset.
[07:03 AM] Plot Tracer: if the internet had have been copywrited by those at CERN who came up with the idea of a world wide web, then it would have just been another of the many smaller networks that existed way back then
[07:03 AM] Plot Tracer: what made their internet the fantastically superb thing it is today was giving it over to everyone - and ensuring net freedoms.
[07:04 AM] Ilsa Hesse nods
[07:04 AM] Ilsa Hesse: any people are welcome to, and I would say, should be encouraged to; give their ideas for the better good
[07:04 AM] Plot Tracer: yes
[07:04 AM] Plot Tracer: but the system doesn’t encourage this
[07:05 AM] Plot Tracer: it encourages people - in fact encourages is not the word...
[07:05 AM] Plot Tracer: it erm.. Ensures people NEED to make money out of ideas.
[07:05 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I would agree
[07:05 AM] Ilsa Hesse: I just think there has to be a happy medium
[07:06 AM] Plot Tracer: if the economic system was different, and people did not have to worry about having a roof over their heads, or having the basics to live on, then selling everything would not have to be as large an issue
[07:08 AM] Plot Tracer: i don’t disagree with private enterprise. But i do disagree that when is the only - or nearing the only - way for people to live. We have a dog eat dog society. Our society needs to be more caring. Trusting in the markets to provide does not work - it is a leap of faith as big as hoping the Sun God will provide cash under our carpets
[07:09 AM] Ilsa Hesse: agreed
[07:09 AM] Plot Tracer: when "the city" - the NASDAQ etc is doing well, then there are still people living in poverty - so that system is not working
[07:10 AM] Ilsa Hesse: as I said :_)
[07:10 AM] Plot Tracer: what we have to do is work out what to replace it with - hence the left unity group. I call the system i am working towards "socialism" as it describes a system that ensures everyone is cared for by a society we all work to create
[07:10 AM] Plot Tracer: :)
[07:10 AM] Plot Tracer: soz... i seem to be in a ranty mood :)
[07:11 AM] Ilsa Hesse: its ok :-)
[07:12 AM] Plot Tracer: hey - would u mind if i was to place an edited version of this convo on the blog? i sometimes like to do that - show that people can have discussions - and not entirely agree etc - but be comradely. You know?
[07:12 AM] Ilsa Hesse: sure
[07:12 AM] Plot Tracer: cool
[07:12 AM] Ilsa Hesse: just be sure to add a couple of "I hope you DIE" in there, lol
[07:12 AM] Plot Tracer: lol
[07:12 AM] Ilsa Hesse: "die pinko scum!"
[07:12 AM] Ilsa Hesse: or something like that :-)
[07:13 AM] Plot Tracer: yes - and "you are not a lefty because you know how to spell Bill Gaites name properly! Marx says we should never spell capitalist pigs names correctly in Marx cpt 4 verse 1!
[07:14 AM] Ilsa Hesse: lol
[07:14 AM] Ilsa Hesse: "the book of Marx" says that?
[07:15 AM] Plot Tracer: I’m sure someone could find some sort of sentence in it that could be interpreted that way... in the King James Version...
[07:15 AM] Ilsa Hesse: LOL
[07:15 AM] Ilsa Hesse: the King James Version of the Book of Marx
[07:15 AM] Ilsa Hesse: no doubt
[07:15 AM] Plot Tracer: yup
1 comment:
Great discussion post!
I have a comment on this statement:
"Ilsa Hesse: see, now, as an outsider, I would be annoyed if you got rid of the House of Lords... I would think it would cut in to your tourism :-)"
My comment is that i actually think getting rid of the "House of Lords" and make the palace available to anyone, would attract more tourists. Just like Versailles. Sorry to say, but I am annoyed by the tragic comedy they (Lords)represent. :)
And this:
"Plot Tracer: but Bill Gates didn’t make his billions by NOT standing on someone’s back... and the fact is, he does not need that wealth... whilst wealth goes to him, it is coming from someone else."
I agree. I really do think that one cannot make furtunes and not stand on someone`s back. Just like capitalism itself can not exist without standing on someone`s back. It`s in the nature of capitalism.
Thank you for sharing this conversation, Ilsa and Plot.
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