What an interesting start to discussions about the current economic system! Those present covered everything from the environment through religion and the class system. It has been suggested we narrow the parameters in a further discussion of the economic mess that has been left by bankers for another session.
This issue is the single-most important issue the left should be talking about. This crisis has led to revolutions through out the middle east and unrest across the west, including the heartlands of the USA and UK. And the crisis and the solutions we put forward to replace the austerity measures created by the ruling class political representatives and billionaires who control them will have a massive impact on how we share out the worlds resources.
Present: Anon; Kenya Warden; Millay Freschi; Notharess Dragovar; Dex Moleno; Iblis Aluveaux; Laze Babenco; umsultan Tearfall; Peter Feldragonne; Sophiekittycat Resident; DavidMaku Resident; Temba Resident; Iblis Aluveaux; Plot Tracer
[2011/03/28 05:52] IM: Plot Tracer: SL Left Unity discussion beginning at 6am - Austerity Measures - Who should pay? No to cuts in services? Some cuts? Tax the Rich? Close tax loopholes? Are we all in this together? Are the people who caused this crisis at the forefront of patching it up? Is now the time to talk about alternatives to Capitalism? Will Capitalism fall in the next generation? Come, let people know your thoughts. But listen, comradely to others! Please contact Plot Tracer for LM
[2011/03/28 06:03] Anon: the economy probably just depresses people
[2011/03/28 06:03] Plot Tracer: i think so
[2011/03/28 06:04] Plot Tracer: ok - perhaps more people will arrive late (it sometimes happens :)
[2011/03/28 06:05] Plot Tracer: - this is a chance for people to discuss the austerity measures and solutions to the economic crisis
[2011/03/28 06:05] Plot Tracer: I think it is interesting that in the Netherlands, the Government has stepped in and said that bankers should NOT have bonuses - and any they have recieved since 2008 should be handed back
[2011/03/28 06:06] Plot Tracer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/27/dutch-bankers-bonuses-axed-by-people-power?mobile-redirect=false
[2011/03/28 06:06] Kenya Warden: what does austerity mean?
[2011/03/28 06:07] Plot Tracer: Austerity measures - making us live on little in order to pay back what the bankers lost
[2011/03/28 06:08] Notharess Dragovar: Nice to know that Some people take action againsts the Banks corruption
[2011/03/28 06:09] Plot Tracer: another thing here in the uk, is the revelation today that even before most of the government measures have been put in to place, there has been an average pay-cut across the country of 5%
Laze Babenco: halloe Plot, I'm not sure i'll be able to folllow a so serious discussion because of my english but i would like to try .. could u send me the tp please?
[2011/03/28 06:10] Anon: 5% pay cuts.. in the uk?
[2011/03/28 06:11] Plot Tracer: yes Anon - here is a link - http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9436000/9436026.stm
[2011/03/28 06:12] Plot Tracer: the purchasing power of the "bottom" 50% has fallen to levels of the 1920s here
[2011/03/28 06:12] Notharess Dragovar: What does a pay-cut of 5% mean?what are the reasolts of this?
[2011/03/28 06:12] Plot Tracer: have a read at the link. the results is less purchasing power - and in fact, because of the astronomical price of fuel in the UK, many people are losing their homes.
[2011/03/28 06:13] SLLU Donation Hat: Thanks for the 250L$, Comrade millay Freschi
[2011/03/28 06:13] Notharess Dragovar: Fuel is a Dieing resource...
[2011/03/28 06:14] Plot Tracer: yes notharess. thanks for the donation Millay!
[2011/03/28 06:14] Anon: caused by inflation, and people afraid of losing their jobs, so they dont ask for raises
[2011/03/28 06:15] Dex Moleno: well as someone who is in the next act of this scenario those paycuts will affect everything people will have less money to spent or will be afraid to spent afraid of the future so the market will froze middle and small business will close
[2011/03/28 06:15] Plot Tracer: personally i think, the world is living beyond its means - and when i say that, i mean the west and the middle classes/ upper classes in particular. We need a fair system - and an unfair system is creating economic and environmental disaster
[2011/03/28 06:15] Plot Tracer: Dex - what is happening in Greece at the moment?
[2011/03/28 06:15] Notharess Dragovar: To have a working system,you need to have LESS humans,and LESS need of resources... And of course...less idiotic conflicts between people who seek to gain power
[2011/03/28 06:16] Dex Moleno: well greece is handled magnificent i think there is a great communication game upon us the country is mumb
[2011/03/28 06:16] Plot Tracer: or a system where we use only what we need, Notharess?
[2011/03/28 06:16] Dex Moleno: and i mean the people
[2011/03/28 06:16] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah,that system as well XD
[2011/03/28 06:17] Dex Moleno: they are afraid the to stand up to everything
[2011/03/28 06:16] millay Freschi: I'm curious to see what role technology will play in all of these issues. One stroke of technological genius could change everything
[2011/03/28 06:17] Notharess Dragovar: Technology will lead nowhere in my opinion...
[2011/03/28 06:17] Plot Tracer: millay - we cant wait for the "technology fix" - it might never come - and we are in trouble - deep trouble now.
[2011/03/28 06:17] millay Freschi: really?
[2011/03/28 06:17] Dex Moleno: the media are scrying the people are gonna get the next loan to cover our expenses ect
[2011/03/28 06:18] Plot Tracer: yes- there is a famous public health doctor here in UK - Phil Hanlon - and he says actually the smokescreen that technology can heal all is ensuring the present system of destruction and rising poverty is maintained
[2011/03/28 06:18] millay Freschi: yes i totally get that part...i really do but I still think that there is technology capable of completely wiping out our need for fossil fuel and energy that we pay for both economically and environmentally. i wonder if some of that technology isn't being withheld in order to reap maximum financial gain fossil fuels
[2011/03/28 06:18] Notharess Dragovar: Really, technology and development is like a drug of Power, and to reach a state where u do as less as possible, but you cause damage that will be shown in later times...it's basically just means of comfort, and a result of the massively increasing human population on earth-it's much more sad then it is smart
[2011/03/28 06:19] Plot Tracer: like what, Millay? the water powered car? the energies needed to separate hydrogen to power a car for example, is so vast and unstable, that we are not even within 50 years of creating such a thing.
[2011/03/28 06:19] Plot Tracer: ok
[2011/03/28 06:20] millay Freschi: no i don't think those sorts of things are going to make enough of a difference
[2011/03/28 06:20] millay Freschi: solar power....
[2011/03/28 06:21] Plot Tracer: although the environment is part of this - and in fact, the economic disaster and the current measures to combat it can only exacerbate the problems; the question today is, is there an alternative to the solutions put forward by governments and the world bank to the economic problem?
[2011/03/28 06:21] Notharess Dragovar: The solution is Rebuild!
[2011/03/28 06:21] Notharess Dragovar: Let it collapse, it failed anyway... From the ashes,we can rebuilt a better world… And learn from the past errors…BUT…A major fail in humanity that No one learned any thing since the Mesopotemian times
[2011/03/28 06:22] Kenya Warden: what do you mean Notharess?
[2011/03/28 06:23] Notharess Dragovar: Notice the many cultures that rise and fall
[2011/03/28 06:23] Notharess Dragovar: They have 1 thing in common
[2011/03/28 06:23] Plot Tracer: Do you think, Notharess - that the measures taken by Governments will lead to a change of the system (eg the Spanish Government making people work one hour extra a day free)
They grew TOO big for their own good; Well...I do not know about that... I just think that overall,what ever system which is build should monitor it's own growth, before it will reach to self-destruct
[2011/03/28 06:25] Plot Tracer: is "growth" a solution (or indeed, a viable system?)
[2011/03/28 06:25] Notharess Dragovar: Growth is the reality of the human race-
[2011/03/28 06:25] Plot Tracer: the word i hear on the left is "sustainability" rather than "growth"
[2011/03/28 06:25] Notharess Dragovar: 2 people will lead to having 100 people will lead to 10k people and so on... The massive swarm of humans will not be able to control itself-never mind Which type of government rules it… In small scale… Social group will work…In large scale,it will collapse
[2011/03/28 06:27] Notharess Dragovar: Over all, democracy cannot work, because the people at the top become too much selfish for their own good… Robots can control such a system better-unless someone is Reprograming them
[2011/03/28 06:28] Dex Moleno: that is right i think they had soo much power that we have a global corrupted system
[2011/03/28 06:28] Plot Tracer: this is the same in many "top down" systems. The USSR stagnated because a few people were profiting from the status quo...
[2011/03/28 06:28] Plot Tracer: yes dex
[2011/03/28 06:28] Notharess Dragovar: Yes
[2011/03/28 06:28] Notharess Dragovar: What is USSR BTW?
[2011/03/28 06:29] Plot Tracer: (USSR- pre-1989 Russia/ East Germany etc) we currently have a system where those with power are paid in bonuses even if they create a full system failure as happened i the banking system
[2011/03/28 06:30] Notharess Dragovar: The rich helps the rich...it's one heck of a corrupted system… Personaly,let all be equal,no need for Levels
[2011/03/28 06:30] Plot Tracer: Peter - welcome. I have just told people of the solution in Netherlands to the bankers bonuses...
[2011/03/28 06:30] Plot Tracer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/27/dutch-bankers-bonuses-axed-by-people-power?mobile-redirect=false
[2011/03/28 06:31] Plot Tracer: how do we achieve having "no levels", notharess
[2011/03/28 06:32] Notharess Dragovar: I do not know how to do that Succesfully...humans have the habbit of allways wanting more… I want Less actually
[2011/03/28 06:33] Plot Tracer: do they? or do most people want just what they need plus some leisure? I believe we have created a competitive society where people want to look as if they have more than their neighbour.
[2011/03/28 06:33] Plot Tracer: and i also believe people in work are so far away from decision making and the fruits of their labours, work has become something other than helping society become batter.
[2011/03/28 06:33] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah...The consumerism culture-which is basically the heart of the USA
[2011/03/28 06:34] Notharess Dragovar: Well...People work to gain for themself-that is what the world is teaching today Sadly
[2011/03/28 06:35] Anon: i think work actually makes you spend a lot more... in terms of justifying going out on fridays, saturdays, fuel costs to get to work, buying lunch..
[2011/03/28 06:35] Plot Tracer: true Anon
[2011/03/28 06:35] Notharess Dragovar: Got a point
[2011/03/28 06:35] Anon: when i was unemployed i could easily live off much less
[2011/03/28 06:35] Notharess Dragovar: And most of the work is Useless if you really look at it
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: do people even speak to their neighbours these days? i certainly don’t
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: i have what i need
[2011/03/28 06:36] Plot Tracer: yes notharess -i think a lot can be learned from the old soviet states and cuba - in that they use emulation rather than competition as a means in society - in education and in their work
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: i dont compare myself to anyone
[2011/03/28 06:36] Plot Tracer: is this true of most, Anon?
[2011/03/28 06:36] Anon: maybe i live on a different planet, then...
[2011/03/28 06:37] Dex Moleno: well you work you get tired you deserve it in my opinion but guys i think we are missing the points going out on friday is living a life we are not talking about a luis vuittons here
[2011/03/28 06:37] umsultan Tearfall: It is obvious to everyone that the financial crisis is shaking the entire world, East and West. It is a serious event that is giving the politicians, decision makers, prominent thinkers and economists sleepless nights. It is a huge calamity that is very complex and has many implications, which explains the great turmoil being experienced by economists and politicians, and it also explains why so much is being written about it, analysing it from different points of view. They are in a state of great confusion, and some of them have started to blame one another for what has happened
[2011/03/28 06:37] Dex Moleno: that is true um
[2011/03/28 06:37] Anon: i dont know plot, we'd have to do surveys... do we still fall true to 50s cliche sayings?
[2011/03/28 06:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: the turmoil is that politicians abandoned all control over economy
[2011/03/28 06:38] umsultan Tearfall: This crisis requires some explanation in order to highlight some important shar’i aspects that have to do with it.
[2011/03/28 06:38] Plot Tracer: 50s cliche sayings, Anon?
[2011/03/28 06:38] Anon: 'keeping up with the jones etc'
[2011/03/28 06:38] Plot Tracer: yes sophie. who is handling the economy? our elected representatives or others?
[2011/03/28 06:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: the 50 cliches were still alive under reagan era under bush and are still
[2011/03/28 06:39] Notharess Dragovar: U cannot trust anyone there actually...
[2011/03/28 06:39] umsultan Tearfall: 1. The crisis is real
It has led to the collapse of major banks and financial institutions; international stock markets have declined, trillions of dollars have evaporated, billions have disappeared from the financial markets, many countries in the world have hit rock bottom, millions have lost their wealth, be it in the form of shares, savings or investments; the investments of the American people in the stock markets have lost $4 trillion. This crisis has become like a tsunami, striking the economies of many countries.
[2011/03/28 06:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: billions that never existed really else in speculation, but when theses irreal billions faded they grabbed it from real economy
[2011/03/28 06:40] Notharess Dragovar: U know...there is allways a Crisis,I just belive that the at it's base-it comes from the lack of self control within the race of humans
[2011/03/28 06:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: as about countries crises , countries took debts to save banks and now banks attacks countries on their debts ??? it is ubuesque
[2011/03/28 06:41] Plot Tracer: yes Sophie
[2011/03/28 06:41] Plot Tracer: well notharess - did this crisis come through the mismanagement of the many - or the mismanagement of the few?
[2011/03/28 06:41] Notharess Dragovar: Both
[2011/03/28 06:41] umsultan Tearfall: 2. “the roof fell down upon them”
Economy and money are the main foundation of Western society, and when they were content with that and forsook the laws of God.
[2011/03/28 06:41] Notharess Dragovar: The many stoped managing themself,because they just can't
[2011/03/28 06:41] Notharess Dragovar: And,they put people who seek onle self-gain in charge
[2011/03/28 06:41] Iblis Aluveaux: do you think it is endemic to the human condition Sopie? or, is simply a lack of organizational models that are workable in the long term?
[2011/03/28 06:41] Plot Tracer: the west lost its manufacturing base - making things - and instead started to bet on debt to make some people some money - a pyramid scheme of huge proportions...
[2011/03/28 06:42] Anon: i thought we are kind moving into a post consumerist culture... why 'keep up with the joneses' when the cheapest thing is still 1000% better than what you could buy 10 years ago? i think we are bored with bigger and better... whatever works is fine, and i see that attitude all around me
[2011/03/28 06:42] Plot Tracer: did they "put" people in charge?
[2011/03/28 06:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: i have read recently a study about markets speculation, it was estimated at several times global production of earth, none existent money that have value of far more than what planet produce in one year
[2011/03/28 06:42] umsultan Tearfall: What we are seeing today of large scale destruction is about to utterly destroy them. The economic structure that they boast about and think will protect them has become the cause of their turmoil and decline. The calamity has come to them from above and from below. They thought that their financial system was perfect but from that system has come that which they never expected. “and the torment overtook them from directions they did not perceive”.
[2011/03/28 06:42] Notharess Dragovar: They elected them...
[2011/03/28 06:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: we elect them and even when we say they are idiots we reelect them, we are the guilty ones
[2011/03/28 06:43] Dex Moleno: do you feel you have a choice to turn to sophie
[2011/03/28 06:43] Notharess Dragovar: Yes
[2011/03/28 06:43] Dex Moleno: ?
[2011/03/28 06:43] Plot Tracer: did they Notharess? In the UK, the coalition was not elected
[2011/03/28 06:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes we have a turn the day we would all put a blank vote or not reelect someoen who failed the n they will change
[2011/03/28 06:43] Plot Tracer: and the "winning party" in the last election was elected by less than 25% of the people who voted
[2011/03/28 06:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: we choose our politicians for their skills to broke slightly law for us at local scale but as we choose people who are unhonest at their scale they do far more
[2011/03/28 06:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: we are the first guilty ones
[2011/03/28 06:44] Dex Moleno: no sophie
[2011/03/28 06:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: but i am french we always consider that there is still a guillotine ready in a museum
[2011/03/28 06:44] Dex Moleno: we want fairness
[2011/03/28 06:44] Notharess Dragovar: Well...again comes the "human swarm" idea, people cannot manage themselves anymore-most of them really don't have the time to even think about what is going on in the big picture...so they let the few run them-and because it's hard for them to realy look at what is going on-They the few do whatever they wish
[2011/03/28 06:45] Dex Moleno: and i must remind you that the fish starts to rotten from the head
[2011/03/28 06:45] Dex Moleno: so
[2011/03/28 06:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: fairness ? fairness for who what is fairness not taking money to those who make children working in india as nike ?
[2011/03/28 06:45] Notharess Dragovar: Both ends are rotten, because both of them are just unable to control the body
[2011/03/28 06:46] Plot Tracer: i disagree - i feel - and this has been proved in the uk - that the politicians say something that is not completely honest, and then get elected and surprise people. one of the partners of the coalition here was against - completely - many of the cuts they are now saying are necessary - like in education, and in welfare etc
[2011/03/28 06:46] umsultan Tearfall: 3. “Say (to them), ‘It is from yourselves (because of your evil deeds)’” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:165]
Just as calamities and disasters have known, tangible causes, they also have spiritual causes. The fact that there are tangible causes does not contradict the fact that there are spiritual causes too.
[2011/03/28 06:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: usually the first in economy who talk of fairness are big corps and the rich who think it is fair that poor die in street
[2011/03/28 06:46] Anon: children don’t work in nike factories. the people who do work there are paid better than other local businesses, with much better conditions. Otherwise they wouldn’t work there.
[2011/03/28 06:46] Plot Tracer: agreed sophie
[2011/03/28 06:46] Iblis Aluveaux: otherwise they wouldn’t work there?
[2011/03/28 06:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: cuts in education and health are needed ? why not to take the money as a tax on the speculation ? Speculation ruin countries, ruin economies, it would be fair to tax the city not to cut education and health
[2011/03/28 06:47] umsultan Tearfall: Oppression, transgression, sin, disobedience to Allaah and denying the rights of others are all causes of calamities befalling people at both individual and group levels, and even at the global level on occasion, as we are seeing in this crisis which involves calamities one after another
[2011/03/28 06:47] Anon: yes, they would work at the local businesses if it paid better. people *want* to work at nike.. because they pay better and give better conditions.
[2011/03/28 06:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes it is easy to say that children need to work but remember in old Europe it was the same but we decided to forbid it
[2011/03/28 06:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: and we promoted education , Europe have build on education not on work of children
[2011/03/28 06:48] Notharess Dragovar: Spirituality is another calamity....
[2011/03/28 06:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: but for someone who care just of business it is an, other matter
[2011/03/28 06:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: the matter is that we consider dividends and corps more important than lives
[2011/03/28 06:49] Notharess Dragovar: Yes...that is the problem
[2011/03/28 06:49] umsultan Tearfall: What has befallen the people is not a problem from heaven; rather it is a calamity that has befallen them because of their sin and what their own hands have wrought.
[2011/03/28 06:50] Notharess Dragovar: Without any connection to "Sin",humans are just to stupid to realize what they are doing
[2011/03/28 06:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: to sin ? you mean evil side ?
[2011/03/28 06:51] Plot Tracer: can i give a link to a twitter account worth following?
[2011/03/28 06:51] umsultan Tearfall: 4. God gives respite but does not forget
[2011/03/28 06:51] Plot Tracer: http://twitter.com/theleftbanker
[2011/03/28 06:51] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: :)
[2011/03/28 06:51] Dex Moleno: oh come on
[2011/03/28 06:51] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: hurra !!!!!
[2011/03/28 06:51] Dex Moleno: really ?
[2011/03/28 06:51] Temba Resident: respite?
[2011/03/28 06:51] Anon: god is pretend.
[2011/03/28 06:51] Temba Resident: agreed
[2011/03/28 06:51] Anon: humans making bad decisions however, is not
[2011/03/28 06:51] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah...evil side is basically Existence in it's core
[2011/03/28 06:51] Temba Resident: no proof of a Christian god
[2011/03/28 06:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: we could perhaps avoid the religious matter ?
[2011/03/28 06:52] Dex Moleno: Sin , god , religion
[2011/03/28 06:52] Dex Moleno: ?
[2011/03/28 06:52] Notharess Dragovar: I meant to something someone said earlier...
[2011/03/28 06:52] Dex Moleno: the biggest travesty in history
[2011/03/28 06:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can respect each others and talking economy without involving god, i respect religion but i not want religion to peek in my life and bed
[2011/03/28 06:52] Plot Tracer: can we perhaps come away from the "evil" verses good stuff and concentrate now on how to solve the banking crisis?
[2011/03/28 06:52] Temba Resident: and I am agnostic
[2011/03/28 06:52] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: grats :) really grats :)
[2011/03/28 06:52] Notharess Dragovar: Humans are indeed doomed from their start, without any connection to Sins or things like those
[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: What is an agnostic?
[2011/03/28 06:53] Temba Resident: the only way to solve the banking crises is take exposé and denounce the ones causing it
[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: Wow...it'
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: doomed ? he have our moralities our codes of honour
[2011/03/28 06:53] Plot Tracer: can we save the religious conversation for perhaps another time?
[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: it's* hard to keep up with all the words XD
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: codes
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes religion have nothing to matter with this subject
[2011/03/28 06:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: and religion and politic are split domains
[2011/03/28 06:53] Notharess Dragovar: Indeed...it's a different problem by itself...
[2011/03/28 06:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: one is how we rule our spirituality the other is for human things
[2011/03/28 06:54] Plot Tracer: do people believe that bankers should be allowed to keep bonuses - especially bonuses from banks that are now being bailed out by taxes?
[2011/03/28 06:54] Anon: maybe we should make a computer virus that will wipe all debt records and all cash. clean wipe. the problem is all in the numbers
[2011/03/28 06:54] IM: Sophiekittycat Resident: thanks
[2011/03/28 06:54] Notharess Dragovar: Why the heck should bankers have bonuses???
[2011/03/28 06:54] Anon: distribution is the problem
[2011/03/28 06:55] Sophiekittycat Resident: the question is why the heck rulers can have so much bonuses and workers nothing, without the workers , they could not have the bonus
[2011/03/28 06:55] Notharess Dragovar: U mean something like the FAIL 2000 bug?
[2011/03/28 06:55] Sophiekittycat Resident: the question is here it is not the bonus but the repartition of the work benefits
[2011/03/28 06:55] Notharess Dragovar: The way to solve this is simple-workers get up,go bash up the idiots at the top
[2011/03/28 06:55] Plot Tracer: yes notharess
[2011/03/28 06:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is not a good thing too, you can cut all elites head or we do genocides as with Mao or pol pot
[2011/03/28 06:56] Notharess Dragovar: The thing that is keeping the workers at bay is only Fear
[2011/03/28 06:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: no it is to have a more important ^politic control over economy
[2011/03/28 06:56] Anon: people get rich by working hard. don’t they deserve bonuses for their work?
[2011/03/28 06:56] Temba Resident: um all that bail out goes to the bankers
[2011/03/28 06:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: and their workers they don’t work hard ? there is only the boss who can keep the money ? sorry i can this economical slavery
[2011/03/28 06:57] Anon: yes, but the people up the top have actually created it all... they organise and they create jobs
[2011/03/28 06:57] Kenya Warden: If one wishes to discuss, one should respect the opinion of others, no matter how far from once own it is. Otherwise one can just as well discuss with the mirror.
[2011/03/28 06:57] Plot Tracer: yes Sophie. what bonus does a mother or father get? what bonus does a teacher or nurse get?
[2011/03/28 06:57] Temba Resident: I can name two of the richest most powerful bankers in the wrold, two families that has been at the head of the banks since 1776
[2011/03/28 06:57] Plot Tracer: who are the more helpful to society? nurses or bankers?
[2011/03/28 06:57] Anon: if they own the company, they should be able to take as much profit as they like
[2011/03/28 06:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: the fathers and mothers could have a bonus by the place they work if the boss was not keeping all just for exchange market
[2011/03/28 06:58] Temba Resident: but I am reluctant to give the two family names
[2011/03/28 06:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: the teachers ? they are paid by the country then they should be well paid or this country betray it citizens
[2011/03/28 06:58] Temba Resident: because every time I say them I get accused of anti semetics and conspiracy tin hat theories
[2011/03/28 06:58] Notharess Dragovar: It's basically King rule,in a different shape-the kings are those with power,the others are Slaves to them
[2011/03/28 06:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: sometime a guillotine is efficient
[2011/03/28 06:59] Notharess Dragovar: It's just a temporary solution
[2011/03/28 06:59] Temba Resident: which I'm sick of because thats the kind of discrediting that keeps these powerful rich bastards safe from full exposure
[2011/03/28 06:59] Notharess Dragovar: The problem is WAY deeper then that
[2011/03/28 06:59] Plot Tracer: notharess - some here in the UK believe that the Tories are wanting to turn the clocks back to fuedal times. the way they are destroying our "eglatarian" education system etc seems to point that way! :)
[2011/03/28 07:00] Plot Tracer: http://www.leftbanker.net/archives/231 - this article is interesting about bonuses
[2011/03/28 07:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: the problem is the humans, and that all humans need access to a true education, the problem actually is that politic no more control economy
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: U are right....
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: Idiots make good slaves after all...
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: That is eventually the mission of the reach
[2011/03/28 07:00] Plot Tracer: yes sophie - education is key - a real education. when the right wing attack education, they attack democracy
[2011/03/28 07:00] Temba Resident: they don’t want humans to have access to true education
[2011/03/28 07:00] Notharess Dragovar: Turn all the rest to be their slaves
[2011/03/28 07:00] Temba Resident: they want us as dumbed down as possible
[2011/03/28 07:01] Plot Tracer: attacks on education were the first thing the Tories did here when they took power last year
[2011/03/28 07:01] Notharess Dragovar: Indeed
[2011/03/28 07:01] Sophiekittycat Resident: and education if what make a country rich, it is from education that a country stay in the race not by the market
[2011/03/28 07:01] Anon: many millionaires never finished highschool
[2011/03/28 07:01] Notharess Dragovar: Actually got NO idea on global events...I just look from a logical perspective
[2011/03/28 07:02] Plot Tracer: many many poor people never finished highschool
[2011/03/28 07:02] Anon: indeed
[2011/03/28 07:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: if it was so easy in a capitalist society to be rich and to not be poor, someone can explain me why there is so few rich and so much poor ?
[2011/03/28 07:02] Iblis Aluveaux: at present 'education' is knowing when you are being lied to
[2011/03/28 07:02] Anon: education is probably the key to jumping up a social class, but it is very difficult to do anyway
[2011/03/28 07:03] Notharess Dragovar: The poor are born to be poor, and their luck did not smile.... Easy-rich take whatever opportunity they got,don't care who dies on the way
[2011/03/28 07:03] Sophiekittycat Resident: i not talk of education as a way to jump over others but as away for everyone to understand in which society the are , to take the right decisions
[2011/03/28 07:03] Plot Tracer: is there a solution in common ownership of utilities?
[2011/03/28 07:03] Anon: yes rich people dont obey the morals that are set out for poor people to stay poor
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: yes sophie - an informed populace is a dangerous thing to the right wing.
[2011/03/28 07:04] Iblis Aluveaux: its out of reach at this point I think Plot
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: yes Anon - totally
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: why iblis?
[2011/03/28 07:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: common ownership ? no no else for strategic things as energy, education, water, security that have to be in state hands
[2011/03/28 07:04] Iblis Aluveaux: common ownership isn;t coming about without a drastic change
[2011/03/28 07:04] Dex Moleno: education is a weapon to do the extra mile mentally to have a "fingerprint " as a human being it has nothing to do with wealth capabillies and possibillities
[2011/03/28 07:04] Plot Tracer: the banks are under common ownership (well - their debt is - not their profits - which is surely wrong)
[2011/03/28 07:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we have to tolerate a small amount of inequality for society to be stable and progress
[2011/03/28 07:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we have to keep it fair
[2011/03/28 07:05] Anon: this society rewards innovation, creation of wealth
[2011/03/28 07:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: how ?
[2011/03/28 07:05] Anon: building a business
[2011/03/28 07:05] Plot Tracer: does it Anon?
[2011/03/28 07:05] Anon: yes
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: thats how you get rich
[2011/03/28 07:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: hahah most creators got their creations stolen by bankers
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: by building a business
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: selling something that everyone needs
[2011/03/28 07:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: or those who succeed were those with no respect for others
[2011/03/28 07:06] Dex Moleno: thisociety ? how is it ? me you or opra? times magazine ?
[2011/03/28 07:06] Temba Resident: no I disagree, the banks are under private ownership
[2011/03/28 07:06] Plot Tracer: can our society sustain everyone doing this, Anon?
[2011/03/28 07:06] Notharess Dragovar: Well...the problem is that today people sell things NO ONE really needs, yet they buy them
[2011/03/28 07:06] Anon: theoretically yes. practically no
[2011/03/28 07:06] Plot Tracer: i agree notharess
[2011/03/28 07:07] Temba Resident: it's documented, the owners publically admitted it
[2011/03/28 07:07] Plot Tracer: who needs the latest Manchaester united football kit? or the latest design in Nike?
[2011/03/28 07:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: problem actually is that corporations produce more and more, pay workers less and less, but who then can buy more and more when they are paid less and less ?
[2011/03/28 07:07] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/28 07:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: low classes and middle classes are thoses who make a society be healthy not the riches
[2011/03/28 07:08] Temba Resident: and who's giving these corporations money? the people the shoppers, consumerism
[2011/03/28 07:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: if you make middle classes and low classes poorer then you go to a disaster
[2011/03/28 07:08] Plot Tracer: this is certainly happening in the UK. And now Spain has announced its workers are on a pay freeze plus have to work an extra hour. are we becoming slaves to ensure these corporations increase growth?
[2011/03/28 07:08] Dex Moleno: right Sophie
[2011/03/28 07:08] Dex Moleno: yes plot that is the game
[2011/03/28 07:09] Temba Resident: yes plot we already are
[2011/03/28 07:09] Dex Moleno: but Plot
[2011/03/28 07:09] Iblis Aluveaux: there is little scope for that sort of business Anon. Most things that people need are produced by and sold my huge corporations. Even food is grown by them. We are shown the guy who made facebook and told "oh, you can do that too" but in truth he was already quite privileged and his product isn't one that anyone but the very rich can compete with.
[2011/03/28 07:09] Dex Moleno: the thing is this plan is not gonna work
[2011/03/28 07:09] Plot Tracer: yes iblis - and we are told we can all do this, when in reality few do.
[2011/03/28 07:09] Dex Moleno: is the middle class fails then the society fails
[2011/03/28 07:09] Iblis Aluveaux: we can't all be billionaires- its a mirage
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: but we can all be poor?
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: yes dex
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: i agree
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: and the middle classes are becoming smaller in the west
[2011/03/28 07:10] Anon: so what.. you don’t want to reward ideas anymore? Everyone living off the same wage, no matter what they do?
[2011/03/28 07:10] Plot Tracer: ok
[2011/03/28 07:10] Iblis Aluveaux: we don’t have to be poor. The earth is bountiful. We need organizational structures based on sharing and cooperation
[2011/03/28 07:11] Temba Resident: the poor become poorer, the middle poorer, and the rich richer
[2011/03/28 07:11] Plot Tracer: well - rewarding ideas - that is an interesting one. should one person profit from an idea through exploiting others to carry out that idea?
[2011/03/28 07:11] Dex Moleno: well i d like to see how that will go i mean the plan to wipe the middle class
[2011/03/28 07:11] Plot Tracer: should society not profit rather than an individual?
[2011/03/28 07:11] Notharess Dragovar: Personally...let humans be in Small numbers, let each ones education become massive, and let us all work together-while keeping our own development and Growth in numbers under monitoring
[2011/03/28 07:11] Iblis Aluveaux: no idea arises in isolation
[2011/03/28 07:11] Temba Resident: well corporations like Monsanto and BP are destroying nature’s bounty with their oil, and GMO product and herbisides
[2011/03/28 07:12] Notharess Dragovar: They don't care!!!
[2011/03/28 07:12] Plot Tracer: eg. the internet would not have happened if those who invented it at CERN had have calimed 2"wnership" of copyright etc
[2011/03/28 07:12] Notharess Dragovar: Their only care is Money
[2011/03/28 07:12] Iblis Aluveaux: yes Temba they are, and the masses are paying them to do it.
[2011/03/28 07:12] Temba Resident: Monsanto has already destroyed much of Mexico’s organic corn which their germinating GMO corn
[2011/03/28 07:13] Plot Tracer: the masses are not given a choice. they are given the pretence at choice
[2011/03/28 07:13] Temba Resident: they even lied about the germinating corn
[2011/03/28 07:13] Iblis Aluveaux: capitalism is based on the premise of competition but that model is not sustainable
[2011/03/28 07:13] Plot Tracer: monsanto is selling sees for crops that mean people have to go to them for chemicals and also go back to them to buy more seeds
[2011/03/28 07:13] Plot Tracer: so should this idea be rewarded
[2011/03/28 07:13] Temba Resident: no they don't
[2011/03/28 07:14] Temba Resident: the people are being forced
[2011/03/28 07:14] Anon: well plot, the reality is, is that it is rewarded... though why no one hasn’t blown up their factory is another thing altogether..
[2011/03/28 07:14] Notharess Dragovar: I think I got the picture then...basically the next thing to happen is a massive scale collapse-maybe some wars...and then,if someone manages to survive-Rebirth
[2011/03/28 07:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: regulated capitalism is sustainable, free capitalism is not
[2011/03/28 07:14] Plot Tracer: but is it what people want? or is that monsanto seed something that is being imposed on the poor for profit?
[2011/03/28 07:15] Temba Resident: a secret program by monsanto has been exposed many times monsanto was caught aerial spraying Roundup on fields designed to kill every thing but their GMO product
[2011/03/28 07:15] Iblis Aluveaux: (capitalism is not the idea that you can open a store or make and sell your own goods, its the idea that if you have money the best way to get more is gambling, on the stock market.)
[2011/03/28 07:15] Notharess Dragovar: The greed this days...
[2011/03/28 07:15] Plot Tracer: yes iblis
[2011/03/28 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: basis of capitalism and of first stock market was people gathering togethers for doing manufactury or a ship for the east, this was good they were planning for years
[2011/03/28 07:16] Plot Tracer: there is nothing wrong with selling your own goods in order to buy other things you need. trade will always happen - but do we need a system that gambles on how big debts are going to be?
[2011/03/28 07:16] Notharess Dragovar: I think we are all are fully aware of the problems...and right now we just give Examples...I think we should more talk about actual ways of affecting it,rather then just Nodding
[2011/03/28 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: actual capitalism is benefits over a week not years
[2011/03/28 07:16] Temba Resident: Monsanto GMO is destroying organic crops by germination and mixing
[2011/03/28 07:16] Plot Tracer: yes notharess
[2011/03/28 07:17] Plot Tracer: i have a suggestion
[2011/03/28 07:17] Temba Resident: most the food in our supermarkets, cereals canned products are monsanto GMO
[2011/03/28 07:17] Iblis Aluveaux: Notharess hits the right chord
[2011/03/28 07:17] Plot Tracer: if this crisis was caused in some way by the selling of debt to people who could not pay it back (to buy houses)
[2011/03/28 07:17] Temba Resident: the gov refuses to make laws requiering gmo lables
[2011/03/28 07:17] Plot Tracer: why not change the debt into community rents? this does two things- ensures the people have somewhere to live
[2011/03/28 07:18] Plot Tracer: and also creates a huge community capital [asset]
[2011/03/28 07:18] Temba Resident: their by the mosanto is allowed to force this shit on us and we can never know what is and what isn't GMO
[2011/03/28 07:18] Temba Resident: we have no choice because we have to eat
[2011/03/28 07:18] Iblis Aluveaux: please explain community rents
[2011/03/28 07:18] Notharess Dragovar: Lets think for a moment about the "Huge"
[2011/03/28 07:18] Plot Tracer: anyone else have solutions?
[2011/03/28 07:18] Notharess Dragovar: Remember-on massive scale only the Nothing works; Still good idea
[2011/03/28 07:19] Temba Resident: the biggest problem is mega corps like monsanto are paying off our MP's and senators
[2011/03/28 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: solutions are laws , control and enough harsh punishments for a corporation that not respect morality
[2011/03/28 07:19] Notharess Dragovar: Overall...I think we should let the Collapse occur, because the world in this version is just Too corrupted, and basically lack ALOT of basic morality even
[2011/03/28 07:20] Temba Resident: not when the people making the laws are being payed off by mega corps
[2011/03/28 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: a corp punishment should be such harsh that they not even want to start again, you and me if we kill someone we can have death penalty or life jail-should be as for corporations
[2011/03/28 07:20] Notharess Dragovar: After the collapse,we can start again-this time NO SEEKING OF MASSIVE GROWTH AND POWER
[2011/03/28 07:20] Iblis Aluveaux: our MPs and senators are corporate people. Its not simply graft.
[2011/03/28 07:20] Notharess Dragovar: Still...the Corporations run the government
[2011/03/28 07:21] Anon: if we knock it down and start over, we won’t learn from our mistakes. we have to fix what we started
[2011/03/28 07:21] Temba Resident: as long as the people in congress continues to bow under the pressures of the mega corps we are screwed no punishment for corps
[2011/03/28 07:21] Notharess Dragovar: Who do you think pays for the Spreading of lies of those who wish to be elected? How can you fix such a Massive thing?
[2011/03/28 07:21] Temba Resident: and what punishments are laid down ifs in the the form of pocket change for these mega corps.
[2011/03/28 07:21] Iblis Aluveaux: they are by and large one class. Politicians and Corporate heads generally come from a small group of people
[2011/03/28 07:21] Anon: small changes, gradually, over time
[2011/03/28 07:21] Notharess Dragovar: U can create something within it,and seperate it from the rest...to that I agree
[2011/03/28 07:22] Anon: big movements lead to things like stalin, hitler, mao etc - they *never* work
[2011/03/28 07:22] Anon: small changes are very effective
[2011/03/28 07:22] Temba Resident: it's like chargimng a drunk driver 5 dollors for killing some one
[2011/03/28 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: never work and how in europe we got our revolutions ? how in usa they have free from British
[2011/03/28 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is too easy to say we cant do anything
[2011/03/28 07:22] Notharess Dragovar: How can you make a big move while no one is even willing to stop their lifes for a moment and realize that the big picture is just wrong,and they need to change it?
[2011/03/28 07:22] Iblis Aluveaux: we have little local politics. my town is full of people who care what obama does but don;t even know what the school board does
[2011/03/28 07:23] Anon: well just be like the french and knock down things that you dont like with bulldozers
[2011/03/28 07:23] Temba Resident: because they are too dumbed down under corp. control- brain washed scared sheeple
[2011/03/28 07:23] Anon: i wish people would do that more often
[2011/03/28 07:23] Notharess Dragovar: Yeah...
[2011/03/28 07:23] Iblis Aluveaux: I wanna hear about community rents Plot:)
[**sorry Iblis – I was lost in IM’s – I will send you a notrecard detailing this idea**]
[2011/03/28 07:23] Notharess Dragovar: When a king goes mad-you take him out
[2011/03/28 07:23] Plot Tracer: but the fact is, Anon, there are massive movements (corporations) controlling our water, mediua, power, etc anyway. they are not working - they are taking from the poorest and controlling them... and this is becoming worse as fewer corporations, who are under no democratic structures as they are bigger than governments in economic power -
come into being- eg murdoch
[2011/03/28 07:24] Dex Moleno: i agree with Sophie i think the first step is social unity governments corps. ect try to divide the people by turning us against another because someone get payed a little more than the other , that is the first step against the crisis ,UNITY
[2011/03/28 07:24] Plot Tracer: he is now in control of a huge proportion of our information services
[2011/03/28 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes dex
[2011/03/28 07:24] Temba Resident: divide and concure
[2011/03/28 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes sophie
[2011/03/28 07:24] Iblis Aluveaux: I am with Sophie and Dex on the unity issue. We need to demonstrate new ways of living
[2011/03/28 07:25] Plot Tracer: ok. can we wrap this up with perhaps one sentence from each?
[2011/03/28 07:25] Notharess Dragovar: I dunno,I kinda am in a state where I see that our countries have gone into the point of collapse
[2011/03/28 07:25] Notharess Dragovar: And that most people won't even listen
[2011/03/28 07:26] Dex Moleno: Social unity i have to say for the time being and prepare cause we have fights to give on every level
[2011/03/28 07:26] Iblis Aluveaux: We need to build communities on the micro level, ones based on cooperation. (thats my sentence)
[2011/03/28 07:27] Sophiekittycat Resident: unity as the peasants unions for altermondialists
[2011/03/28 07:27] Notharess Dragovar: Last sentance:We need to fix the Core problem of humanity in order to move on,otherwise we will reach the same point over and over again
[2011/03/28 07:28] Plot Tracer: My last sentence: I believe we can fight for a different kind of society; one that is driven by putting people before profit. A vision of hope where everyone could fulfil their potential and live full and meaningful live rather than the cuts, despair and austerity that the corporations and present lacky governments are presenting us with. i believe in local and global solutions - we need both - local control of communities and global control of economies and extraction and manufacturing the things we need.
[2011/03/28 07:28] Anon: i think that only small changes are effective. and they are the easiest to implement. trying to make big changes ends in some horribly misguided catastrophe, or fails to be effective... or is too hard to even get off the ground (ie, if so many people think like the people in this room, why havent they all gotten together and done something? the answer lies in its difficulty)
[2011/03/28 07:28] Sophiekittycat Resident: i would think the opposite to give more and more power to high levels as europe united nations they are the politic powers that can opposite the corporations and if we do at small scales we will fall in nationalism in egoism
[2011/03/28 07:29] Sophiekittycat Resident: our doom is that people actually fall in nationalism is separatism in regionalisms
[2011/03/28 07:31] IM: Dex Moleno: thanks plot it was a nice discussion you handled it very well
[2011/03/28 07:31] Plot Tracer: ok - unless anyone has anything else they would like to say, we can wrap this up. See you all again same time same place next week. anyone who has suggestions for next weeks discussion, please drop me a notecard or email - firstname.lastname@example.org
[2011/03/28 07:31] Temba Resident: http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pro/1103PSIEOAVD/PPSIM369/PR
[2011/03/28 07:32] Notharess Dragovar: I think we need to get more to the Activism rather then Debate
[2011/03/28 07:33] Sophiekittycat Resident: activism will be possible when the ideas spread in opinion
[2011/03/28 07:33] Sophiekittycat Resident: else it is just spiting in the ocean
[2011/03/28 07:33] Sophiekittycat Resident: educating people by debate is not less noble that the fight
[2011/03/28 07:34] Plot Tracer: i agree sophie - re education. these events are for that... for us all to help educate each other
[2011/03/28 07:34] Notharess Dragovar: Indeed
[2011/03/28 07:35] Notharess Dragovar: Things start with the mind
[2011/03/28 07:35] Iblis Aluveaux: I am with sophie on that too
[2011/03/28 07:35] Anon: great talk, ciao
[2011/03/28 07:35] Iblis Aluveaux: thanks for the time Plot
[2011/03/28 07:35] Plot Tracer: and that is a nice way to end :)
[2011/03/28 07:35] Plot Tracer: np! see u all soon!
[2011/03/28 07:38] Dex Moleno: goverment corps "system " are trying to change the status quo globally we are part of a big game communicators polls ect are determining what will be taken and when i think the only hope is that they lose control too fast then the people will get to the streets is gonna be ugly but i think the history teach it is the only way .....i hope not to many is lost in translation
[2011/03/28 07:38] SLLU Donation Hat: Thanks for the 20L$, Comrade Sophiekittycat Resident