Tuesday, 22 March 2011

SLLU Discussion - Nukes and Sustainable Energy...

Discussions can be organised at any time through SLLU - please IM Plot Tracer if you would like to do this.

The following discussion took place on 21st March 2011

Present: Green Hawks; Plot Tracer; Ataraxia Azemus; Collosus Adagio; Ilsa Hesse: Drezz Jarman; Agnes Sharple; Takni Miklos; Siri Vita; Alina Gabilondo

[2011/03/21 07:06] Plot Tracer: ok - the discussion this week is - can the left support nuclear power/nuclear weapons. anyone like to give an opinion to start us?

[2011/03/21 07:07] Green Hawks: nucleur power plants seem to want to be built on fault lines it seems its a requisite
[2011/03/21 07:07] Collosus Adagio: well, in think anyone can support nuclear power, as long as it is used responsibly.. and when u mean left you are talking about korea and iran right
[2011/03/21 07:07] Plot Tracer: can we say nuclear is "clean sustainable energy?"
[2011/03/21 07:08] Ilsa Hesse: no one plans on a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami... they may need to in the future

[2011/03/21 07:08] Collosus Adagio: indeed but in japan, i guess it should have been planned
[2011/03/21 07:08] Green Hawks: the ring of fire is a famous fault line
[2011/03/21 07:08] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/21 07:08] Ilsa Hesse: west coast of the USA as well
[2011/03/21 07:08] Collosus Adagio: indeed
[2011/03/21 07:08] Plot Tracer: are there nuke plants on WC USA?
[2011/03/21 07:09] Green Hawks: i know texas has some
[2011/03/21 07:09] Plot Tracer: How about California?

[2011/03/21 07:09] Collosus Adagio: that another disaster just waiting to happen if there are in califoprnia
[2011/03/21 07:10] Drezz Jarman: I can't say I know enough about it to say, so I'll just listen
[2011/03/21 07:10] Plot Tracer: ok - what of the question, is nuclear, sustainable and green?
[2011/03/21 07:10] Collosus Adagio: well, it i green in a way
[2011/03/21 07:10] Drezz Jarman: well then if it was safe ok
[2011/03/21 07:10] Collosus Adagio: let me explain
[2011/03/21 07:10] Plot Tracer: anyone have thoughts (ediucated or not :)
[2011/03/21 07:10] Ilsa Hesse: California has nuclear energy
[2011/03/21 07:10] Collosus Adagio: it is taken from materials right from the earth, just as water is
[2011/03/21 07:11] Green Hawks: perating nuclear power plants in California are Diablo Canyon, near San Luis Obispo

[2011/03/21 07:11] Collosus Adagio: and its been used for a long time
[2011/03/21 07:11] Ilsa Hesse: Collosus, refined, just like oil; just better security must be taken; also they don’t just dig up the plutonium and build a reactor to put it in... there is a lot of refining of product there
[2011/03/21 07:11] Collosus Adagio: it should be bñasted out of the earth once its used; no use having nuclear waste around here
[2011/03/21 07:13] Green Hawks: at one of the japan ones is a uranium one, and that’s worse one particle can kill u
[2011/03/21 07:13] Plot Tracer: yes ilsa - people say Nuclear is carbon neutral - it is far from it.
[2011/03/21 07:14] Drezz Jarman: can you explain more about it?
[2011/03/21 07:14] Collosus Adagio: also, when u say left, do u mean that maybe countries that want to start using nuclear power, might start using it for weapons reasons?
[2011/03/21 07:14] Plot Tracer: http://banthebomb.org/ne/nuclear-power-mainmenu-102/1319-what-if-it-happened-here-.html - this is what would happen if there was a nuke accident near me - the two largest cities in Scotland would have to be evacuated.

[2011/03/21 07:14] Plot Tracer: Collosus - this is a left group - anti-capitalist
[2011/03/21 07:14] Green Hawks: coal is a lot cleaner than it used to be
[2011/03/21 07:15] Collosus Adagio: i see, well i am antimany things; capitalism is one of them ;)
[2011/03/21 07:16] Takni Miklos: ' capitalism ' ....
[2011/03/21 07:16] Collosus Adagio: now. do you guys see really a want in world leaders to make change about nuclear power
[2011/03/21 07:16] Plot Tracer: :) well -take the question as "can an anti capitalist be pro-nuke" :)
[2011/03/21 07:16] Collosus Adagio: sure, anticapitalists can be pro nuke; but pro nuke is bad for all,
[2011/03/21 07:17] Takni Miklos: can an anti-cpitalist be pro-elctricity ? of course she can!
[2011/03/21 07:17] Collosus Adagio: its all about statistics u see...; one day, someone in charge of the nukes, will use it against someone; just like capitalists did

[2011/03/21 07:17] Plot Tracer: http://www.nature.com/climate/2008/0810/full/climate.2008.99.html - nuclear carbon emissions
[2011/03/21 07:18] Takni Miklos: i guess the word ' capitalists' means ' the bad guys' ?
[2011/03/21 07:18] Green Hawks: carbon footprint i thought it was proved to be a scam since the climate gate
[2011/03/21 07:18] Plot Tracer: well, Takni - SL Left Unity is an anti-capitalist group... so i guess so
[2011/03/21 07:19] Ilsa Hesse: Takni, the better question is, can someone be "anti" something and still use it.
[2011/03/21 07:19] Takni Miklos: uh its not that; i was asking, ' what is capitalism exactly ? '
[2011/03/21 07:19] Collosus Adagio: they are the bad guys actually, this 200 years of industrialization has turned this capitalists into a horde of money seeking bastards, not to mention to have the system rigged so no one can climb up the ladder. Just them more and more

[2011/03/21 07:19] Green Hawks: maybe globalism is a better word
[2011/03/21 07:20] Takni Miklos: uh, what ladder? I’m lost
[2011/03/21 07:20] Collosus Adagio: well
[2011/03/21 07:20] Green Hawks: its awful Chernobyl was 1 reactor but the Japan thing had 3 reactors go boom/;( - the Japanese are probably ahead in technology, does this prove we are unable to harness this nuclear technology?

[2011/03/21 07:22] Plot Tracer: ok - straw poll - who here is pro nuke? And who is anti?
[2011/03/21 07:22] Collosus Adagio: you see, education level has been decreasing at a steady level.. so, they just people to be intelligent enough to do labour but not to think for themselves... therefore its almost impossible to raise your level in the ladder, in the ladder of status. Let me tell you a story..
[2011/03/21 07:22] Collosus Adagio: after world war two
[2011/03/21 07:22] Takni Miklos: so you say, if some of those below, were able to raise status, then everything would be fine ?

[2011/03/21 07:22] Ilsa Hesse: I am neither, if they can figure out how to make it safe, I am willing to take a little risk to make sure it that it is not lack of electricity that lets us slip in to "mad max" land
[2011/03/21 07:22] Collosus Adagio: there many stories of people who left their countries
[2011/03/21 07:23] Collosus Adagio: and started with 5 dollars in their hands
[2011/03/21 07:23] Green Hawks: i`m anti -nuke i guess as in a unstable world of catastrophes there’s another round the corner:(

[2011/03/21 07:23] Collosus Adagio: and now have lots os stability now all has changed u give 5oo dollars to someone and lets see how well he does nothing
[2011/03/21 07:24] Plot Tracer: ok - then the question should be asked - are current levels of power/ energy use sustainable? and when the oil runs out (we are approaching peak) what replaces it?
[2011/03/21 07:25] Collosus Adagio: nuke power has proven to be dangerous, and oil expensive, and as pilot mentioned, will end one day, i think solar and water should be used
[2011/03/21 07:25] Collosus Adagio: maybe a mixture of uses
[2011/03/21 07:25] Agnes Sharple: we need to use more solar energy, heath from underground is an option, water, wind and so on

[2011/03/21 07:25] Green Hawks: i not sure if i believe peak oil anymore, there’s been cases of oil wells refilling up http://www.rense.com/general63/refil.htm
[2011/03/21 07:26] Collosus Adagio: a plant which cleans the water and uses it forces to make electricity
[2011/03/21 07:26] Ilsa Hesse: solar wont work at current levels... right now it costs more to make a solar panel than it will produce in it's lifetime.

[2011/03/21 07:26] Green Hawks: Y-a-y
[2011/03/21 07:26] Green Hawks: plants!
[2011/03/21 07:26] Takni Miklos: then dont use solar panels...
[2011/03/21 07:27] Plot Tracer: lol Green - we are def reaching peak. in fact the Egyptians have been exposed as producing false figures... we will reach peak within the next 10 years in the middle east. the rest of gthe oil that is left (about half again of what we have used) is extremely difficult to extract and will mean no cheap oil products ever again
[2011/03/21 07:27] Plot Tracer: yes ilsa - that is true about solar.
[2011/03/21 07:27] Green Hawks: solar could be good but solar te3chnolgy is mostly owned by big oil as they bought it up in the 70`s and haven’t developed it much since
[2011/03/21 07:27] Plot Tracer: what about cars? transport? roads? plastic products?
[2011/03/21 07:28] Collosus Adagio: imagine, poil is already expensive in europe, how expensive will it get; bikes for everyone

[2011/03/21 07:28] Takni Miklos: nah, ilsa lied
[2011/03/21 07:28] Takni Miklos: ilsa talks about some kinds of photovoltaic’s
[2011/03/21 07:28] Plot Tracer: it is very expensive here in Scotland now - and i am seriously getting rid of my car in the next 6 months to get back to cycling.
[2011/03/21 07:29] Ilsa Hesse: excuse me?
[2011/03/21 07:29] Takni Miklos: one kind *
[2011/03/21 07:29] Collosus Adagio: hi
[2011/03/21 07:29] Agnes Sharple: i never had a car, i hate traffic

[2011/03/21 07:29] Agnes Sharple: :)
[2011/03/21 07:29] Ilsa Hesse: calling someone a liar is a bad way to be involved in a conversation...

[2011/03/21 07:29] Collosus Adagio: u know, im from Venezuela- a socialist country
[2011/03/21 07:30] Collosus Adagio: and we are in the works of creating nuclear power plants
[2011/03/21 07:30] Plot Tracer: taksi - please do not insult people who have a different view
[2011/03/21 07:30] Green Hawks: yeh but we know the price of oil is manipulated regualry also,,
[2011/03/21 07:31] Takni Miklos: am not insulting
[2011/03/21 07:31] Ilsa Hesse: “you are a liar”
[2011/03/21 07:31] Plot Tracer: u said ilsa lied. that is not comradely behavior.

[2011/03/21 07:31] Takni Miklos: solar pays for itself - some kinds of photovoltaic panels do not.
[2011/03/21 07:31] Green Hawks: i ditched my car about 3 years ago..
[2011/03/21 07:32] Takni Miklos: ilsa said no solar pays for itself.
[2011/03/21 07:32] Agnes Sharple: yay Green!
[2011/03/21 07:32] Green Hawks: :)
[2011/03/21 07:32] Agnes Sharple: i really think the use of cars should be restricted
[2011/03/21 07:32] Ilsa Hesse: solar panels create enough electricity during their life time to create another Taco? do they create it in a timely enough fashion to create the glass, or will you need _many_ solar panels toe create the heat for the glass for the next one?

[2011/03/21 07:33] Green Hawks: solar is good for US people but here in UK we dont get much sun
[2011/03/21 07:33] Ilsa Hesse: solar is good for US people... in areas that have sun 24 hours a day... and if they just want to feel good about not using oil...

[2011/03/21 07:33] Plot Tracer: yes - at present the sustainable energy methods are in no way going to be able to replace oil/coal/gas.

[2011/03/21 07:33] Green Hawks: nods
[2011/03/21 07:34] Ilsa Hesse: every solar panel on the planet is created using oil or coal energy... to use something else is not cost effective yet... as I said...
[2011/03/21 07:34] Plot Tracer: so is nuke our only option?
[2011/03/21 07:34] Plot Tracer: i agree ilsa
[2011/03/21 07:34] Ilsa Hesse: either that or lefty ego, that may be able to support it
[2011/03/21 07:34] Green Hawks: there are a few other methods; algae can make abundant oil
[2011/03/21 07:35] Ilsa Hesse: Green, that is true, but I would like to get away from burning things to make energy

[2011/03/21 07:35] Green Hawks: when i had my car we had it running on 100% veg oil
[2011/03/21 07:35] Takni Miklos: ilsa's argument applies to everything... WHATEVER you create is using 95% coal and oil energy to create... so ilsa is right
[2011/03/21 07:36] Agnes Sharple: there are other options, but so far multinational corporations have been oppressing it, like for cars, its perfectly possible to use more natural fuel
[2011/03/21 07:36] Collosus Adagio: well natural fuel its hard to make too; it is clean though
[2011/03/21 07:36] Takni Miklos: yep 95% of it is made using coal energy as well
[2011/03/21 07:36] Plot Tracer: ok, what about the scientists that say, "“Biodiesel is a complete scam because in the tropics the growing demand is causing forests to be burnt to make way for palm oil and similar crops.

“We calculate that the land will need to grow biodiesel crops for 70-300 years to compensate for the CO2 emitted in forest destruction.”

[2011/03/21 07:36] Takni Miklos: and oil energy
[2011/03/21 07:36] Green Hawks: everything emits co2 carbon credits is a scam

[2011/03/21 07:36] Takni Miklos: so that is not an option
[2011/03/21 07:37] Ilsa Hesse: to me, the question is "do we want alternate energy supplies that are cost effective in the short term, or do we want to tell everyone that they can’t have kids for the next 50 years or so to cut the population to a more sustainable level..."
[2011/03/21 07:37] Takni Miklos: hm not so green
[2011/03/21 07:37] Green Hawks: yeh its abused, some evil corporations have cut down rainforest to plant biodiesel crops,

[2011/03/21 07:38] Plot Tracer: so - was the oil energy society over the past 100 or so years a blip in our history? is human kind heading for a slowdown?

[2011/03/21 07:38] Takni Miklos: the age of cheap energy is past
[2011/03/21 07:38] Collosus Adagio: way we are going we are slowly going into extintion, really
[2011/03/21 07:38] Siri Vita: I just think it's time to seriously work on alternatives to oil, coal and nuclear. For economic stability, job creation, security reasons and environmental reasons; The Saudis were under reporting their ability to produce by 40%.....40%!!!!

[2011/03/21 07:39] Siri Vita: OPEC has experienced a sharp drop that is almost certainly driven by the practical limits of how much it can produce, given that most of its members have probably hit the peak of their production. OLADE has gone from 6,366,000 to 3,160,000 barrels-per-day. If those numbers hold, that is a drop of just over 50%.

[2011/03/21 07:39] Plot Tracer: yes Siri!

[2011/03/21 07:39] Siri Vita: we have hit peak oil....
[2011/03/21 07:39] Green Hawks: climate gate got exposed big time, global warming is a tool of the globalism to tax u to death

[2011/03/21 07:39] Collosus Adagio: might be a tool, but a fact as well
[2011/03/21 07:39] Siri Vita: Climate gate was made up by people controlling the oil industry; the Koch brothers FUNDED the deniers

[2011/03/21 07:40] Plot Tracer: Green - i think your view is not supported by facts tbh
[2011/03/21 07:40] Plot Tracer: yes Siri
[2011/03/21 07:40] Siri Vita: 5 independent investigations cleared the scientists and the data
[2011/03/21 07:40] Siri Vita: FIVE
[2011/03/21 07:40] Siri Vita: that was just never reported on FOX news

[2011/03/21 07:40] Ilsa Hesse: I dont need "global warming" to tell me that I need to stop cutting down trees so my children will have trees to look at one day

[2011/03/21 07:40] Plot Tracer: yes. The Lorax, Ilsa!

[2011/03/21 07:40] Green Hawks: i would like a link Siri
[2011/03/21 07:41] Siri Vita: you cant' discredit reams of scientific data based on someone using the term "trick" in an email related to 1 graph
[2011/03/21 07:41] Siri Vita: that was just ridiculous
[2011/03/21 07:41] Siri Vita: ok
[2011/03/21 07:41] Siri Vita: I'll get one for you
[2011/03/21 07:41] Siri Vita: and if I prove it to you....please spread it around; because I have to tell you i'm SO tired of hearing people say that; it's simply not true....they were NOT discredited; and I'll give you KOCH brothers info as well

[2011/03/21 07:42] Siri Vita: we have melting ice sheets, rising sea levels, rising temperatures
[2011/03/21 07:42] Siri Vita: it's all well documented
[2011/03/21 07:42] Takni Miklos: green - global warming is factual
[2011/03/21 07:42] Siri Vita: even insurance companies....hardly liberal institutions accounting for climate change in their riskk assessment models
[2011/03/21 07:43] Green Hawks: i used to believe it but not anymore
[2011/03/21 07:43] Siri Vita: it's the deniers that are the scam...perpetuated my corporations with a financial interest in the perpetuation ot the oil economy; and now I'll get you links
[2011/03/21 07:44] Takni Miklos: green - some scammers have persuaded you not to worry
[2011/03/21 07:44] Green Hawks: the problem is media companies its hard to tell what’s legit who controls the information

[2011/03/21 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes, Siri. When listening to the debates - i always have to think, who profits from denial? Who profits from climate change? Which lobby is powerful?

[2011/03/21 07:44] Green Hawks: al gore will profit big time from carbon credits,

[2011/03/21 07:45] IM: Siri Vita: http://forums.wallstreetexaminer.com/topic/939691-noaa-climate-scientists-cleared-in-federal-investigation/

[2011/03/21 07:45] Plot Tracer: well - it is surely not those who are saying the resources we have left must be shared fairly and the USA - whose middle classes are using 7 planets of energy (Scottish middle class is using 4 planets of energy) should share this with rest of the world in a fairer way.

[2011/03/21 07:46] IM: Siri Vita: Penn State global warming scientist Michael E. Mann committed no research misconduct in his studies that produced the "hockey stick" chart of the 20th century's rising temperatures, a university investigative committee concluded Thursday.

"The investigative committee, after careful review of all available evidence, determined that there is no substance to the allegation against Michael E. Mann," the panel of five Penn State scientists reported unanimously.

The panel's finding brings to an end the university's two-phase inquiry into Mann's conduct, which came under fire after more than 1,000 once-private e-mails by the world's top climate scientists, including Mann, were stolen and released to the Internet last November.

[2011/03/21 07:46] Plot Tracer: lol - Green - is Al Gore more powerful than the car and oil lobby?

[2011/03/21 07:46] Takni Miklos: thing is, Green - so far if a government wants to make money , their best option is burn only oil and coal and natural gas - and not invest a cent on any other sources
[2011/03/21 07:46] Green Hawks: u know Enron came up with the carbon credits idea as a way to manipulate energy markets,

[2011/03/21 07:46] IM: Siri Vita: there's more....specifically 30,330,000 more results on a search for scientists cleared 5 investigation
[2011/03/21 07:46] IM: Siri Vita: that's 30million results on google...google is your friend
[2011/03/21 07:47] Plot Tracer: carbon credits idea is not a helpful one.
[2011/03/21 07:47] Green Hawks: yeh we need clean technology for sure
[2011/03/21 07:47] Takni Miklos googles ' carbon credits '

[2011/03/21 07:47] Siri Vita: WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. officials on Thursday cleared scientists of charges that they manipulated data about climate change in e-mails that were stolen from a British university in 2009, triggering a climate scandal.

The Department of Commerce's Inspector General conducted the independent review of e-mails taken from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in England, at the request of Republican Senator James Inhofe, a climate change skeptic.

The e-mails included exchanges between researchers at the university and many of the world's top climate scientists, including employees at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, an office of the Commerce Department.

Some of the more than 1,000 CRU e-mails had appeared to show scientists blasting climate change skeptics and trying to block publication of certain articles.
But the review said it found no data manipulation or inappropriate procedures by NOAA scientists.

[2011/03/21 07:48] Siri Vita: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110224/sc_nm/us_climate_emails_commerce

[2011/03/21 07:48] Siri Vita: Penn State global warming scientist Michael E. Mann committed no research misconduct in his studies that produced the "hockey stick" chart of the 20th century's rising temperatures, a university investigative committee concluded Thursday.

"The investigative committee, after careful review of all available evidence, determined that there is no substance to the allegation against Michael E. Mann," the panel of five Penn State scientists reported unanimously.

The panel's finding brings to an end the university's two-phase inquiry into Mann's conduct, which came under fire after more than 1,000 once-private e-mails by the world's top climate scientists, including Mann, were stolen and released to the Internet last November.

[2011/03/21 07:49] Siri Vita: http://articles.mcall.com/2010-07-01/news/mc-penn-state-global-warming-prof-cle20100701_1_warming-scientist-michael-e-mann-penn-state-global

[2011/03/21 07:49] Siri Vita: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/07/climategate-review-clears-scientists-dishonesty

[2011/03/21 07:49] Siri Vita: there's more....specifically 30,330,000 more results on a search for scientists cleared 5 investigation
[2011/03/21 07:49] Siri Vita: that's 30million results on google...google is your friend
[2011/03/21 07:49] Plot Tracer: imho - Contraction and convergence is a much better model than carbon credits. Carbon credits are a bit of a con

[2011/03/21 07:49] Plot Tracer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_and_Convergence

[2011/03/21 07:50] Siri Vita: again, you don't hear about them being cleared and completely cleared because corporate interests are tied into the oil economy in a big way
[2011/03/21 07:50] Siri Vita: developing alternative energy is necessary for national security, economic development and environmental reasons

[2011/03/21 07:50] Siri Vita: but we’re being stymied by powerful interests

[2011/03/21 07:51] Siri Vita: now...Green....would you like links that expose how the Koch brothers are tied to this?

They funded a lot of the denierism

oh and here....let me give you some info on how the republicans are now going to cut the development of a solar plant in Nevada that’s about to create hundreds of jobs.....and it's not grant money....they want to take away the loan guarantees....loans....tell me why they keep subsidizing oil

[2011/03/21 07:52] Siri Vita: it's because oil keeps subsidizing their campaigns

[2011/03/21 07:53] Plot Tracer: ok - how does nuclear power fit into this?

[2011/03/21 07:53] Green Hawks: we need cleaner tech for sure

[2011/03/21 07:55] Siri Vita:

The sun already shines year-round in Nevada.
Now, a California company says it has found a way to harness sunlight around the clock as well, and Nevadans soon could see the resulting solar energy powering their homes.

NV Energy was scheduled to announce today a 25-year agreement to buy power from the Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project, a plant that SolarReserve plans to build on federal land outside Tonopah, about 175 miles northwest of Las Vegas.

Crescent Dunes will be the nation’s first commercial solar power plant using salt storage to distribute energy after the sun sets, and it will be the second-largest renewable-power source in NV Energy’s fuel portfolio. The power plant will yield enough juice to power 75,000 homes during peak electric use.

[2011/03/21 07:55] Siri Vita: Construction should take about two years, and would create 450 construction jobs and up to 4,000 jobs for local suppliers. Crescent Dunes would generate sales and property tax revenue of more than $40 million over the 25-year deal’s period, SolarReserve officials said. It would employ a permanent staff of 45.

[2011/03/21 07:55] Green Hawks: thxs for the info siri i will read it
[2011/03/21 07:55] Siri Vita:

Republican plan to end federal program would hurt Nevada and the nation
Las Vegas Sun, Editorial -- March 7, 2011

[2011/03/21 07:56] Siri Vita: The [Crescent Dunes Solar Energy] plant would be a boon to Nevada, creating 600 jobs on-site, and it would be a great source of renewable energy.

The Obama administration pledged to give plant developer SolarReserve loan guarantees this year to get the project off the ground. But, as Karoun Demirjian reported in Thursday’s Las Vegas Sun, the project may not get the guarantees because House Republicans recently voted to ax the loan guarantee program.

[2011/03/21 07:56] Siri Vita: Please do Green - Give this a read as well


[2011/03/21 07:58] Siri Vita: Here's a good article on the Koch brothers


[2011/03/21 07:59] Siri Vita: simple google search of Koch brothers global warming - returns 1,400,000 results

[2011/03/21 08:02] Siri Vita: Rdiation fallout in Japan is spreding through their food and water supply....they found cesium in the water in Tokyo yesterday

[2011/03/21 08:02] Siri Vita: which is more significant than iodine in that it's half like is 30 years

[2011/03/21 08:02] Green Hawks: all i`m saying is perhaps u are right, but if we are to be charged for carbon footprints etc, what will be done with the money, seems its always those in power milking the tax payer

[2011/03/21 08:03] Siri Vita: they've now found fallout at higher...sometimes 27 times higher than regulations allow radiation on spinach...in milk, on canola and crysanthemum greens so far

[2011/03/21 08:03] Plot Tracer: perhaps the tax gained could be put towards a universal health care system, Green? Or is that a discussion for another time? lol

[2011/03/21 08:04] Siri Vita: well there are significant problems deveoping as a result of rising sea levels
[2011/03/21 08:04] Siri Vita: warming at the poles affecting weather patterns across the globe
[2011/03/21 08:04] Siri Vita: warmer air holds more moisture
[2011/03/21 08:04] Siri Vita: you are already seeing the affects of more and more precipitation...bigger storms, floods in places you don't usually get them
[2011/03/21 08:05] Siri Vita: a lot of that money will have to go to disaster relief

[2011/03/21 08:05] Agnes Sharple: yes

[2011/03/21 08:06] Green Hawks: yeh and the winds will carry it, there will be minor effects but it will effect mortality and fertitlty

[2011/03/21 08:07] Siri Vita: that 30k, radius plus who knows how much more around Fukushima is going to have to be a no mans land for a long time

[2011/03/21 08:07] Siri Vita: no agriculture, no water...no people
[2011/03/21 08:07] Siri Vita: it's sad really given how much of the country hs been devastated by the tsunami
[2011/03/21 08:08] Siri Vita: that it's compounded by this longer term catastrophe as well

[2011/03/21 08:08] Plot Tracer: ok - time is moving on... would anone like to sum up... the question was "can the left support nuclear power?" I know we veered from the topic - but i think the conversation was really educational....

[2011/03/21 08:08] Agnes Sharple: Great links Siri
[2011/03/21 08:08] Siri Vita: :)

[2011/03/21 08:10] Plot Tracer: ok... will we wrap it up there? or has anyone anything they would like to finish on?
[2011/03/21 08:11] Siri Vita: i can't support a technology that can disrupt the live of millions of people like this. I just can't. I want to see our existing plants reviewed and retrofitted for the biggest imaginable catastrophe and I want major R&D and subsidy of green energy development with subsidies for oil and coal taken away. It's time...the time is now...it's almost too late...how much more of this can we take as a species

[2011/03/21 08:11] Ataraxia Azemus: That's a hard question to answer short and sweetly :)
[2011/03/21 08:11] Green Hawks: perhaps nuclear plants have been badly designed

[2011/03/21 08:11] Plot Tracer: before people go - could u let me know in im or notecard if you have a suggestion for a future discussion and perhaps a time that suits you better than this one?

[2011/03/21 08:12] IM: Ilsa Hesse: a clear set of meeting guidelines, including use of abusive language :-)

[2011/03/21 08:12] Green Hawks: good talk)
[2011/03/21 08:12] Siri Vita: Thanks Plot. Good to see everyone :)

[2011/03/21 08:13] Ataraxia Azemus: This time works well for me :)

[2011/03/21 08:13] Plot Tracer: for the record - i am anti-nuke. regarding the energy question - i have indicated my preference for contraction and convergence - i think we all need to contract in the energy we use - and i think capitalist growth is either going to kill us -or needs to be replaced with a new system. Growth is not sustainable.

[2011/03/21 08:14] Agnes Sharple: agreed
[2011/03/21 08:14] Siri Vita: yes
[2011/03/21 08:14] Green Hawks: and then there the Hayden supercollider, another disaster waiting to happen? erp

[2011/03/21 08:15] Plot Tracer: thanks everyone! that was a really comradely and good discussion. valuable.

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