Tuesday, 15 March 2011

SLLU Discussion - Libyan No Fly Zone

Present: Plot Tracer; Nadia Lane (who has published a report HERE; Ingela Lubitsch; Agnes Sharple; Kay Uggla; Eliza Madrigal; Monarchy Republic; Trent Infinity; Ilsa Hesse. (others came late - and i have not included their remarks as most of the core discussion group had left when they arrived)

Palmindan Whybrow sent this superb resource after the meeting:  "I think the full interview with Noam Chomsky on newsnight is a really good resource" 
("I cannot recommend this strongly enough" - Plot Tracer)

Plot Tracer, Nadia Lane and Kay Uggla at the discussion.  Photo: Nadia Lane

[2011/03/14 07:07] Plot Tracer: this was the view of one member who cant come
(from Concord Mesmer)
To No-Fly or Not to no fly
The question is whether to enforce “no-fly zone” or not! The deeper question is can (or the moral, should) we use State Sponsored Terrorism against State Sponsored Terrorism.
Set a Thief to Catch a Thief
Historically, the question, with the solution is clear, well understood and repeated ad infinitum. From Bosnia to Iraq we have the case of an out-on-control government trying to (or perceived as trying to) control a restive province by perceptionally enough force that raises international eyebrows. A civil war follows and the government forces use air-power that perceives to tilt the balance against the rebel side. The UN or similar competent authority provides a legal cover to enforce a “no-fly zone” for the Global Sheriff (or an approved deputy) to enforce a “no-fly zone” wherein the government cannot fly un-approved aircraft in that zone. The result is a perceived equality in the war zone.
Please note the repeated use of the word perception.
The Case For: Ending the Metternich-ian Order.
At the end of the Napoleonic Wars (sorry World War II), the need for maintaining global stability arose. To the mix, there were two important ingredients added: (a) rise of the “petrochemical industry” (those who think Oil is all about cheap gasoline/petrol please read-up something on the fractional-distillation column and its pervasive control on human existence today); (b) the need for a safe haven for an extremely prosecuted religious minority supported by a post-WW-II Duopoly.
To create this Safe Haven, it was needed to physically expel the “indigenous tribes” from the land and create a buffer zone. Clearly, while the mechanism in the UN supported this misadventure, local support was clearly absent. Furthermore these “indigenous tribes” created enough international support for themselves.
In this backdrop Count Metternich’s polices are paramount. According to Metternich, parliamentary government and constitutional monarchy cannot be put in places where they had no historical roots; he insisted on the need for continuity with the past and orderly, organic development. Liberalism must be thrown out of the window and replaced with a network or alliances to protect continuity and order.
Hence came the modern “congress of Vienna”. We allowed a set of local despots to continue their despotism provided they (a) keep the oil taps run and (b) support the “safe have” in acts while they can say anything against it to provide an illusion for the restive population.

The revolutions of 1848 (sorry 2011) upset the apple cart. Despite intense Lobbying from Israel & Saudi Arabia, Egypt was allowed to be overturned. Then came Libya, where Gaddafi has set his tribes to battle the other tribes in a situation going towards a civil war.
The author comes from a democratic republic (and a very large one at that!), which established itself as one after the Colonial Rule, with an extremely feudal history. Accordingly, he questions the very soul of Metternich and his ideals. A democratic republic based on liberal ideals is very much in order.
Will it be helped, merely, by imposing a “no-fly zone”? If that happens, and that is a big if, we support the “no-fly zone” in Libya? But there is one important thing. If Libya fails then the Arab spring fails.

The Case Against: The Imperium and its Citizens
Should the Imperium intervene? First, it is not clear, that a “no fly zone” or NFZ per se would be enough to defeat the Libyan forces. The author feels that there are “vested interests” behind Gaddafi – even though they hate him – because “a crow does not eat crow’s meat”. So the problems posed by NFZ would be circumvented!
Secondly, who will “bell the cat”. The Imperium is involved deeply in Iraq. The war in Afghanistan (or what this author would like to sarcastically note, the “fourth anglo-afghan war”) is entering the 11th year.
The Imperium is broke, partially due to the wars and more so for its fiscal mismanagement. Furthermore it is wary about entering a third war.
Looking at the plight of its citizens, it is also unfair to lead the Imperium to another war when the Imperium has demonstrated its complete lack of understanding about the running a war to a successful conclusion.
The author took an interview of some of his Arabian Friends and it seemed that they do not wish for the Imperium to intervene. This is more for philosophical reasons than political reasons.

The Final Opinion
The Road of History is towards Liberalism. Inside the Imperium there is a clash between the
Metternich-ian “Tories” and the liberal “Whigs”. The Whigs want the destruction of the Order while the Tories wish to maintain it (though their supporting words are becoming more garbled to the point of entertaining).
The No Fly zone is not going to be a sufficient condition for the overthrow of the despised leader but it is going to play a part. The Libyans must overthrow the regime and must continue the process of Arab Spring.

[2011/03/14 07:15] Nadia Lane: Concord did a nice job of laying his ideas out
[2011/03/14 07:16] Plot Tracer: OK - the discussion is on how the left should react to the calls for a no fly zone in Libya. who would like to start us off?
[2011/03/14 07:16] Nadia Lane: it's nice that conversations like this can include texts and spontaneous chat
[2011/03/14 07:17] Nadia Lane: Can I say that I am in a dilemma
[2011/03/14 07:17] Agnes Sharple: i think this is very complex and difficult subject and im limited because my english is poor, but i understand a lot more than i can actually express personaly, so id refer to listen mostly if you are okey with that:)
[2011/03/14 07:17] Nadia Lane: on the one hand, I'm against intervention in countries for oil
[2011/03/14 07:17] Nadia Lane: on the other hand, when there are human rights catastrophes occuring under our noses, how can we not act?
[2011/03/14 07:18] Plot Tracer: true.

[2011/03/14 07:19] Plot Tracer: I actually had thought... knowing what we know of guernicca, would we not have had a no fly zone over Euskadi in 1936? but i guess the thing is, there would not have been a no fly zone there, because euskadi has no oil.
[2011/03/14 07:22] Plot Tracer: A friend of mine said to me, "if you could look a libyan in tha face and say why you would not like a no fly zone while his family are bombed, then... well you know.
[2011/03/14 07:22] Plot Tracer: But the fact is, these people - the Libyan people, have been bombed by the US and the UK before.

[2011/03/14 07:22] Kay Uggla: yea
[2011/03/14 07:22] Agnes Sharple: yes
[2011/03/14 07:23] Agnes Sharple: but what can we do?
[2011/03/14 07:23] Kay Uggla: i think it is a matter of who we think is the right Libya
[2011/03/14 07:23] Kay Uggla: Gafaffis or the others
[2011/03/14 07:23] Agnes Sharple: their both Libyans
[2011/03/14 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/14 07:24] Kay Uggla: and if there should be any actions against either side
[2011/03/14 07:24] Kay Uggla: then there would always be a lot of mighty voices against and for
[2011/03/14 07:24] Agnes Sharple: of course
[2011/03/14 07:24] Kay Uggla: and we europeans are hiding behind UN
[2011/03/14 07:25] Plot Tracer: and one notices today that there are no cries for a "no fly zone" in bahrain as the saudis have just invaded it
[2011/03/14 07:25] Kay Uggla: yes
[2011/03/14 07:25] Kay Uggla: and what would the other non democratic countries say to that
[2011/03/14 07:25] Kay Uggla: what about china
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: or russia
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: when they invaded the smaller countries around
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: like tibet
[2011/03/14 07:26] Plot Tracer: yep. I would also say - where is the call for intervention in other theatres of war?
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: ??
[2011/03/14 07:26] Kay Uggla: it is a tricky questions for sure
[2011/03/14 07:27] Eliza Madrigal: the instability of the unknowns and potentials...
[2011/03/14 07:27] Nadia Lane: to comment on Plot's point above, we know that Libya was behind Lockerbie, and so technically Libya has committed aggressive acts before
[2011/03/14 07:27] Nadia Lane: Gaddafi = Libya
[2011/03/14 07:27] Kay Uggla: but my heart is for a heavy and mighty non flyingzone
[2011/03/14 07:27] Kay Uggla: and intervention on the side of the rebels
[2011/03/14 07:27] Plot Tracer: well - we don’t know that Libya was behind ~Lockerbie... some would say it wasn’t.
[2011/03/14 07:28] Kay Uggla: that is history
[2011/03/14 07:28] Agnes Sharple: didn’t they admit it?
[2011/03/14 07:28] Plot Tracer: no they didn’t admit it
[2011/03/14 07:28] Kay Uggla: real politics is about energy
[2011/03/14 07:28] Eliza Madrigal: yes well that is the rationale for removing other dictators...
[2011/03/14 07:28] Kay Uggla: and much more so tomorrow after the Japanese tragedies
[2011/03/14 07:28] Plot Tracer: Kay - i tend to agree with you - this is about energy.
[2011/03/14 07:29] Plot Tracer: but i am not so sure about intervention.
[2011/03/14 07:29] Kay Uggla: well if we were for intervention here the we would say yes to help the Tibetans
[2011/03/14 07:29] Plot Tracer: it would not follow.
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: and the other state around the world
[2011/03/14 07:30] Nadia Lane: The Telegraph UK, March 14th: Quote: In an interview with The Daily Telegraph, Mustafa Abdel Jalil, the head of the provisional rebel government in Benghazi and Libya’s former justice minister, said he had evidence of Gaddafi's involvement in the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: China has invaded Tibet
[2011/03/14 07:30] Plot Tracer: yes Nadia - but this is suspect... the evidence has not been forthcoming.
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: and they want to be free form china
[2011/03/14 07:30] Plot Tracer: yes, Kay

[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: so why not make a non flying zone over tibet
[2011/03/14 07:30] Kay Uggla: :): m? and invade it
[2011/03/14 07:31] Plot Tracer: but - to say that if we were to support a no fly zone in libya, then we shold support an uprising in tibet in the same way
[2011/03/14 07:31] Kay Uggla: oh sorry i meant liberate it
[2011/03/14 07:31] Kay Uggla: ?
[2011/03/14 07:31] Plot Tracer: does not follow. Tibet perhaps could be the subject of another discussion.
[2011/03/14 07:32] Kay Uggla: liberate all invaded countries and help any revolutionary forces to get rid of their old dictators
[2011/03/14 07:32] Kay Uggla: :)
[2011/03/14 07:32] Kay Uggla: not just Libya
[2011/03/14 07:32] Agnes Sharple: :)

[2011/03/14 07:32] Nadia Lane: it's not just my heart that tells me that a no fly zone is a must. It’s the fact that Gaddafi called his people "cockroaches." I'm sorry, these are people we are talking about and nobody has the right to kill people like they are animals (and I'm also into animal rights to so that expression is repugnant to me). But we're talking about an evil dictator here. Isn't it our moral imperative?
[2011/03/14 07:33] Plot Tracer: why would this not be seen by the people of Libya as white, western, Christian imperial meddling? And do you think the people of Libya - those who want rid of gadaffi - would trust the west?
[2011/03/14 07:34] Agnes Sharple: that’s a good question, I’m not sure i would if i was a Libyan
[2011/03/14 07:34] Nadia Lane: The people of Libya, the rebels, are pleading for a no fly zone. That makes it not meddling

[2011/03/14 07:34] Eliza Madrigal: interventions can make big messes with even the best of intentions
[2011/03/14 07:34] Nadia Lane: they want an even playing field against Gaddaffi's small but well armed force
[2011/03/14 07:34] Plot Tracer: no - this is not true, nadia. there are SOME voices asking for a no fly zone - and some saying no.
[2011/03/14 07:34] Eliza Madrigal: layers and layers of agendas in plays when countries step in
[2011/03/14 07:34] Plot Tracer: the western media tends to show the voices they want to.
[2011/03/14 07:35] Plot Tracer: yes eliza
[2011/03/14 07:35] Nadia Lane: the rebel leaders who represent the rebels and people want a no fly zone
[2011/03/14 07:35] Plot Tracer: no, nadia - this is not true.
[2011/03/14 07:35] Plot Tracer: most of the rebel leaders on the ground are telling the west to stay out of it

[2011/03/14 07:36] Nadia Lane: i read articles in which they say this
[2011/03/14 07:37] Nadia Lane: Bloomberg, March 14th Quote: "We have asked the United Nations to impose a no-fly zone,” Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, spokesman and deputy head of the Libyan opposition’s Benghazi-based Interim Transitional National Council, said at a news conference on March 8. “We expect them to do it. They can do it to stop the carnage.”
[2011/03/14 07:38] Nadia Lane: where is your evidence that they are not calling for a no fly zone and for the west to just stay out of it?

[2011/03/14 07:38] Ilsa Hesse: the Arab League has called for a no fly zone, and the rebels are more inclined after recent losses... the question is, does a no fly zone need American fighters. Egypt for instance has an air force that could handle everything except for the AWACS work.
[2011/03/14 07:38] Plot Tracer: yes - the western media are reporting rebels as saying this - but a lot of the rebel leaders are telling the West to stay out. this is also the case in Afghanistan - where the media here paint a picture of the west liberating women etc, when they do the opposite and the afghani people actually wanting the west out. (read malalai Joya)
[2011/03/14 07:39] Plot Tracer: the arab league, surely, is controlled by the oil lobby?

[2011/03/14 07:40] Ilsa Hesse: the Arab League is controlled by the Arab governments... we can look for ghosts behind any door... there are lots of reasons to let the people of Libya down...
[2011/03/14 07:40] Nadia Lane: Plot, that's not evidence, i'm sorry, do you have a quote with Rebel leaders saying, "Stay OUT!"? I haven't seen one and I read a lot of news.
[2011/03/14 07:40] Plot Tracer: as i said at the start - we either see this as a Guernica - to step in - or we see it as an Afghanistan - an intervention to impose a western corporation friendly regime

[2011/03/14 07:41] Ilsa Hesse: (by the way, CNN and the AP both have articles about the rebel leaders wanting a no fly zone...)
[2011/03/14 07:41] Ilsa Hesse: as does HuffPost
[2011/03/14 07:42] Plot Tracer: http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7841
[2011/03/14 07:44] Plot Tracer: page down to commment 8 - which gives a good analysis of Libya.
[2011/03/14 07:44] Plot Tracer: I would say that the last time the west imposed a no fly zone, was in iraq
[2011/03/14 07:44] Plot Tracer: this actually added to the suffering of the Iraqipeople
[2011/03/14 07:44] Nadia Lane: omg, Gaddaffi is a dictator who has been syphoning off -- stealing from his people -- oil profits.
[2011/03/14 07:45] Nadia Lane: He kills indiscriminately and has no respect for human life
[2011/03/14 07:45] Nadia Lane: He just wants to be in power and for his kids to lead and live in decadence
[2011/03/14 07:45] Nadia Lane: He's stuffed away billions in foreign banks
[2011/03/14 07:45] Plot Tracer: and as far as oil is concerned - Libya had the cheapest oil in the region. even richer Tunisians used to buy oil illegally from Libya - smuggle it across the border
[2011/03/14 07:46] Ilsa Hesse: partof the reason for a no fly zone is the slow down his bringing in of outside mercenaries to fight his war...
[2011/03/14 07:46] Nadia Lane: I don't see how anybody could saying have Gaddafi in power is morally superior to intervening -- I take the opposite perspective that it's what the Libyans want

[2011/03/14 07:46] Plot Tracer: other problems with what is happening in libya is that it is one of the most developed and equal societies in the whole African continent... will a no fly zone and the support of a protracted civil war continue this?
[2011/03/14 07:47] Ilsa Hesse: since most media says the leadership of the rebels want outside _air_ support... he is fighting an unjust war against his people... and he is bringing in outside mercenaries via plane to do it... I see no reason to not have someone have a no fly zone
[2011/03/14 07:47] Monarchy Republic: sorry im late ..consensus reached ?
[2011/03/14 07:48] Plot Tracer: no :)
[2011/03/14 07:48] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, so, inside of a protracted civil war, are you willing to see the People of Libya fail?
[2011/03/14 07:48] Ilsa Hesse: (instead, not inside)
[2011/03/14 07:48] Plot Tracer: i think tho - this is not as cut and dried as yes - lets go in or no lets not.
[2011/03/14 07:48] Monarchy Republic: i agree bombing anyone is wrong ...but I’m skeptical have been from the start ...
[2011/03/14 07:48] Plot Tracer: i think we need to know exactly what the Libyan people want - not just BP.

[2011/03/14 07:49] Monarchy Republic: just get a feeling Gaddafi is playing 'a bad ogre ' role
[2011/03/14 07:49] Monarchy Republic: what about his son ?
[2011/03/14 07:49] Monarchy Republic: two are military, but the other is moderate
[2011/03/14 07:50] Ilsa Hesse: well, it seems the Libyan leadership is saying "yes, air support, no, no ground support"... the guy is murdering people... that makes it pretty cut and dry in my eyes... does the party have a different view about how to handle dictators who kill workers now than they used to?
[2011/03/14 07:50] Monarchy Republic: yep ..Killing people just about decides it for me ...
[2011/03/14 07:50] Ilsa Hesse accepted your inventory offer.
[2011/03/14 07:51] Plot Tracer: did everyone get the press release?
(I passed this Press Release to those present) - From: The All African People Revolutionary Party

Date: February 27, 2011 (Anniversary of the courageous battle the Oglala Sioux nation to protect and defend Wound Knee , 1973)


Libya is not Egypt and all rebellions are not Revolutions!
Hands off Libya, hands off Africa-the Masses will dictate the Revolution!

Revolutionaries must be vigilant observers and mindful of the components of revolution versus reform or simple rebellion. We must also never be quick to take sides or forget our history and the role and objectives of Imperialism over the interest of the Masses of the People.

What we have seen in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya today is a reflection of the continued development of the class struggle in Africa. President Kwame Nkrumah provided a rich and comprehensive analysis in his book ‘Class Struggle in Africa’ to lay our political foundation for understanding what has and is happening today. He correctly stated that the proletariat in Africa although relatively small will be the base for building a socialist revolution. He also correctly stated that although america and europe are the most industrialized in the world, their working class is the most embourgeoised thus the most socially and politically backward. Why would the west and europe be so interested in the rebellions occurring in North Africa and the Middle East today? Could it be the oil and geo political imperialist interests for continued global domination especially to protect the imperialist strongest ally zionist israel?

That is exactly the intent of the imperialist powers in supporting these rebellions amongst the growing educated and working class population in Africa and the Middle East. The global imperialist economies rely on the material and human resources and potential capacity of Africa, the Middle East and the americas and therefore the potential of the working class movements becoming socialist especially within Africa would topple the financial markets of america and europe and end the welfare that provides security and sustenance to israel!

Although the rebellions in North Africa namely, Egypt, and Tunisia and in the Middle East are making headway, and even have had partial success in removing imperialist puppets like Hosni Mubarak and the Tunisian president Ben Ali, which they should be congratulated for, it does not guarantee the dismantling of the feudal or neocolonialist regimes that continue to hold power. No matter how much imperialist ideology and their mass media attempt to make everything appear to be about this individual head of state or that individual leader, the neo-colonial servants defending the illegitimate foreign interests of u.s. and european imperialism is much more extensive and elaborate than one person. The masses of workers, women, men and youth must continue to organize themselves into a force for permanent socialist reconstruction.

Once, Egypt stood as one of the most anti- imperialist nations in Africa. ‘In the early 1920s, industrialized areas in Africa like Egypt, South Africa, Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia had strong working class movements and this is where Africa’s first communist parties emerged. By 1962, it was estimated that Africa held at minimum 15 million industrial workers and these organized workers played a significant role in the liberation movements.’(Class Struggle in Africa,pg 64)
In Egypt, President Gamal Nasser represented the aspirations of the Egyptian, African and the oppressed masses of the world. Egypt’s membership in the Casablanca group with Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana, Seku Ture of Guinea, and Modibo Keita of Mali put them in the forefront of the struggle for One Unified Socialist Africa.

But since the death of President Nasser, the global imperialist led by america and israel has been relentless in pushing its plans for geo political domination of that region, which includes the long standing colonization of Palestine for israeli interest and allowing the Suez Canal to become the waterway for imperialist war maneuvers and the imperialist military gateway to impose its will against Africa and the Middle East as demonstrated in Somalia, Sudan, Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan.

On the other hand, Libya has been for many years staunchly anti imperialist since its revolutionary coop in 1969 when Col. Gadhafi and the cadre of the People’s republic created the present state of Libya bringing the Jamahiriya (“State of the Masses”) to power.

Where Egypt had exploited its working class and failed to develop the country or provide resources to its people, making only its elite including military leaders rich with billions of dollars in aid paid by the imperialist, revolutionary Libya at its birth in 1969 had nationalized its oil and used it in the development of the country. The Libyan people benefited from the wealth of its nation the provision of public education, medical care, housing and full participation in all aspects of Libyan life. Libya is Africa’s leading anti imperialist force and she supported many of the movements throughout Africa and the world. Libya has been on course towards a socialist state through the Jamahiriya.

Egypt continued to exploit its masses deterring any collective formation of opposition outside of its unions. It treated its Nubian and peasant populations like a slave force while making rich the military and police force which along with the chosen tribal or clan leaders, they became the petit bourgeois class that defended the imperialist and zionist interest.

Committed like its flag to make green its economy and the neglected Sahara desert, Libya worked towards the technological development of the country and its people benefited. The real battle for Libya has been against its global imperialist enemies who have gone to no lengths to plant agents and conspirators to overturn the revolution of the People. We know the zionist and their imperialist partners continue to plot and conspire to control both the politics and economics of North Africa and the Middle East. Is there any doubt why Benghazi was chosen as the base of revolt since the Libyan oil industry is controlled from that region?

Libya like the rest of Africa, must protect its resources and its people must defend it even with their lives!

We must be watchful of imperialist tactics as their machinations for domination of Africa has never changed!

The All African People’s Revolutionary Party maintained a strong relationship with Libya over the last 30 years and we continue to stand firmly in support of the Libyan people and the revolution of the Jamahiriya.

Because of Libya’s revolutionary stand in support of African and indigenous peoples struggles and its position against imperialist aggression, it was the AAPRP who partnered with other committed Pan Africanist, nationalist and progressive organizations like the Nation of Islam and the American Indian Movement to break the ban against travel to Libya from1985-1990. Libya has been an active partner in building relationships with all justice loving indigenous peoples supporting our strategies for liberation, unity and solidarity.

Libya has hosted tens of hundreds of worldwide conferences and programs to build international solidarity for Pan indigenous struggles for liberation in its 40 years. Leaders from Africa, Central and South America such as Daniel Ortega, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales and Hugo Chavez have all given their revolutionary support and concern for the people of Libya and President Gadhafi.

And for her anti imperialist and pro socialist stance, she paid a heavy price. Enduring economic and political embargos and isolation, the Libyan people persevered and continued to build their nation and support other revolutionary forces. The American imperialist government even went so far as to strike Libyan territory by bombing her while dignitaries including President Rawlings of Ghana were visiting. Imperialist bombs killed the young daughter of President Gadhafi’s and injured many others. This was done without provocation and without apology!

Although over the last few years, Libya has through its own defense, taken a more conservative position to avoid out right military invasion from the west, she continued to support Africa’s liberation and Unity and the worldwide struggle for socialist development. It was President Gadhafi who took up the mantle held by President Kwame Nkrumah to call for the United States of Africa. He has been the key advocate for a united Africa and restructuring of the African Union. The Libyan people have been on the right side of the struggle for truth, justice, socialist ideals and the People’s Revolution and therefore she has always been a target for imperialist aggression.

Leaders from Africa, Central and South America such as Daniel Ortega, Fidel Castro, Evo Morales and Hugo Chavez have all given their revolutionary support and concern for the people of Libya and President Gadhafi.

If we believe in the Socialist revolution and the components of dialectical change, we know that the people of Libya who have survived embargos and bans, who have been bombed and ridiculed in the world wide imperialist press, who have built their nation brick by brick and with the green book as their guide, committed to revolutionary ideological and political ideals, will not wash away that history for western democracy. They will address the contradictions within their nation and bring forward the Socialist revolution. Political positions against the masses in Tunisia and Egypt and other issues related to Africa’s move towards liberation and unity may cause question of Libya’s leadership but one does not throw out the baby with the bath water. The people are the foundation of all revolutions and therefore, we must stand with the People to bring forth the Mass revolution required to guarantee their existence.

In President Nkrumah’s Class Struggle in Africa, he reminds us, “ the basis of revolution is created when the organic structure and conditions in a given society have aroused the mass consent (or discontent) and mass desire for positive action to change or transform that society. Socialist revolution is impossible without the use of force. Revolutionary violence is a fundamental law in revolutionary struggles. “

The journey for Socialism is not a clear or easy and it comes at a high cost. The enemy will not surrender unless forced and it requires the organization, unity and determination of the masses of the people to bring the enemies of the people to their knees. What we are witnessing today will require more than a rebellion. It will require a mass based and well organized long term Revolution. Libyans must be aware that their independence and liberty is not secure especially under a pro western style democracy and must resist any capitulation to change their politics.

Only they can learn that lesson and we believe they are experienced enough to know who their enemies are. They must also know that until the rest of Africa is liberated, united and socialist, no territory in Africa is secure.

Our duty is to support the masses and encourage their full participation in the Libyan and African revolution. We must also protest any move towards sanctions against Libya and demand the imperialist stay out of Africa. Absolutely no military invasion!

This is what distinguishes revolution from rebellion in Africa, a commitment to rid the continent of all forms of imperialism (settler-colonialism, neo-colonialism and zionism); to liberate Africa’s resources for development of its empowered people under a unified government that moves to protect the people from nation/class/gender oppression.

We call upon all Pan African, progressive, socialist and pro human organizations and individuals to voice their opposition to any military intervention.

Organize mass demonstrations. Send press releases and let the world know that we will not stand by quietly while the imperialist/zionist forces orchestrate a military invasion or sanctions against Libya under any circumstances least of all under the guise of democracy!

We stand with the people of Libyan Jamahiriya to take full responsibility for the defense of their revolution. At the same time, we must be vigilant and keep a watchful eye on the continued goings on in Tunisia and Egypt as imperialist forces in the west also try to use this media frenzy over Libya while working to reconsolidate neo-colonial control over those other areas of Africa.

Hands off Africa! No military intervention, no economic or political sanctions against the Libyan nation!
Africa must be free, united and socialist.
We stand Ready for Revolution

[2011/03/14 07:51] Monarchy Republic: just feel we are being constantly screwed to the point I’m maybe seeing things that aren’t there
[2011/03/14 07:51] Ilsa Hesse: thanks Plot, but I am not sure I understand what an _American_ group has to say about Libya ?
[2011/03/14 07:52] Plot Tracer: it is an African group
[2011/03/14 07:52] Monarchy Republic: or British
[2011/03/14 07:53] Monarchy Republic: we always send Special Forces to make sure the Ex Patriots are okay ,dont we :P
[2011/03/14 07:53] Agnes Sharple: good notecard, from what I’ve read so far, that’s exactly what I’d say about it all

[2011/03/14 07:53] Ilsa Hesse: it is an African group that has branches in "many US States" ... I am not sure if that says much for their view on Libya... nor does the fact that their leadership is from Ghana... my roots are German, but I am not sure that gives me a right to decide France's future...
[2011/03/14 07:54] Monarchy Republic: my friend went raving in Goa and the MOD sent a platoon of commandos see he could go to Varinasi :s ...not!!
[2011/03/14 07:54] Plot Tracer: It is an all African congress. There are representatives from all over Africa. And none of them profit from oil.
[2011/03/14 07:54] Monarchy Republic: not oil...Offshore Mediterranean gas drilling
[2011/03/14 07:55] Monarchy Republic: but then as far as gas is concerned...is it better to be held ransom by Russian oligarchs

[2011/03/14 07:55] Plot Tracer: Well, we could have said back in 1989, "why should we listen to the ANC - they don't have a leadership within South Africa"... you know?
[2011/03/14 07:56] Monarchy Republic: because Botha made the ANC -the chosen ones ?
[2011/03/14 07:56] Plot Tracer: well - at least the oligarchs are up front - they are profiteers. the west are running the pretence at being concerned about the people of the oil nations in the middle east. where is the no fly zone in palestine?
[2011/03/14 07:56] Ilsa Hesse: (P.S. when you dont have a web page outside of a defunct AOL page, and a page hosted by Columbia University... you are probably not a person people should listen to about Libya... just saying...)
[2011/03/14 07:57] Agnes Sharple: i think we must be careful not to play the so-called superior western inference, its a question of where to draw the line
[2011/03/14 07:57] Monarchy Republic: yes...Its everyone’s world...And we are entitled to a voice...

[2011/03/14 07:58] Monarchy Republic: but where community is concerned...I’m not sure why the advisors have to be US /European ALL the time
[2011/03/14 07:58] Ilsa Hesse: Plot... they had leadership IN AFRICA at least... come on, please tell me that wasn’t an honest attempt to compare these guys at the "All African People's Revolutionary Party" to something like the ANC?
[2011/03/14 07:58] Plot Tracer: Well - the AAPR have ANC members within it.
[2011/03/14 07:59] Ilsa Hesse: oh? You can show me where that is?
[2011/03/14 07:59] Plot Tracer: And the ANC leadership was outside Sth Africa. And in fact for a long time, Inkatha (sorry sp) were being hailed as the leaders of the black people in sth Africa (imho in order to split sth Africans)
[2011/03/14 08:00] Monarchy Republic: as far as a can see this whole thing is about immigration
[2011/03/14 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: yes, but across the border in another country is a tad bit different than hanging out on American college campuses ...

[2011/03/14 08:00] Monarchy Republic: another North African border post
[2011/03/14 08:00] Plot Tracer: at the moment, no Ilsa. But I have friends - Africans - in Glasgow who are members. I will get their website and details and pass them on to you.
[2011/03/14 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: well, till then I think we should go with what we can prove.
[2011/03/14 08:01] Plot Tracer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-African_Peoples_Revolutionary_Party
[2011/03/14 08:01] Ilsa Hesse: and what we can prove is that the ANC is a real organization, and the AARP is nothing more than a dream that failed and keeps getting pushed once in awhile
[2011/03/14 08:01] Plot Tracer: http://www.aaprp-intl.org/
[2011/03/14 08:01] Ilsa Hesse: yes, Plot, read the page... I am already there... that is where I got the information about Columbia University, etc
[2011/03/14 08:02] Monarchy Republic: reality is a good litmus test...and pragmatism for me is a winner every time
[2011/03/14 08:02] Plot Tracer: Ilsa - I KNOW people - Africans - in this organisation. As i said - i will get you details and pass them on to you. It is an organisation that exists and has branches all over the world - like the ANC did - and like other revolutionary movements do.
[2011/03/14 08:03] Monarchy Republic: you create a line in the sand and someone will stand on the other side of it, simply to be intimidating

[2011/03/14 08:03] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, I know people who were in the ANC...
[2011/03/14 08:03] Plot Tracer: The All-African People’s Revolutionary Party (AAPRP) is a permanent, independent, revolutionary, socialist, Pan-African Political Party based in Africa, the just homeland of African People all over the world. It is an integral part of the Pan-African and world socialist revolutionary movement. The AAPRP understands that “all people of African descent, whether they live in North or South America, the Caribbean, or in any other part of the world, are Africans and belong to the African Nation”. (Kwame Nkrumah,
[2011/03/14 08:03] Plot Tracer: Ilsa - as I do

[2011/03/14 08:03] Ilsa Hesse: Monarchy, if you are speaking of me, I don’t think "intimidating" is the correct word... more a difference of opinion...
[2011/03/14 08:03] Nadia Lane: Monarchy, that's interesting, how is this about immigration? Could you clarify, how so? Thank you

[2011/03/14 08:04] Monarchy Republic: just subjectively
[2011/03/14 08:04] Monarchy Republic: I don’t practically think the idea of any party is good
[2011/03/14 08:05] Monarchy Republic: just everyone realise we are in the same boat ...things need sorting ..and we need to get along ..face it ..stop pretending we don’t know better and GET ON WITH IT!!! :)

[at this point Ilsa and I went in to discussion in private IM. Ilsa has given me permission to publish this]

[2011/03/14 08:05] Ilsa Hesse: no. I am saying that it should be the people on the ground to make the decision, not a group that is not there, or has a "branch office " there... we are speaking of a place where the _dictator_ is bombing and shooting at his people...
[2011/03/14 08:07] Plot Tracer: absolutely - i agree it should be the people on the ground. the fact is, we are only hearing what our press is putting out. (Al jazeera interview people who say no to a no fly zone every day - but BBC CNN etc etc are ignoring these people... why?)
[2011/03/14 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: I believe in the rights of the people to decide their course... and that if they ask, it is the obligation of others to help them gain that course... not to worry whether we will offend some dictator, or our actions may be spun to be disagreeable to someone...
[2011/03/14 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: have you heard of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?
[2011/03/14 08:07] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/03/14 08:07] Plot Tracer: why would I?
[2011/03/14 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: they were Americans and Canadians that fought against the fascists in Spain...
[2011/03/14 08:08] Ilsa Hesse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_Brigade
[2011/03/14 08:08] Plot Tracer: cool. like La Quinte Brigada from Scotland and Ireland (i am in Scotland)
[2011/03/14 08:09] Ilsa Hesse: there are times when it is the duty of every human being to protect those being oppressed or tortured... this is one of those times.
[2011/03/14 08:09] Ilsa Hesse: yes, exactly like that
[2011/03/14 08:09] Plot Tracer: but would the people of the Abraham Lincoln brigade - or la quinte brigada have called for the imperialist powers to bomb euskadi?
[2011/03/14 08:09] Plot Tracer: because that is what a no fly zone is...
[2011/03/14 08:10] Plot Tracer: to impose it you must bomb strategic targets in order to stop the Gadaffi planes from flying - like Iraq
[2011/03/14 08:10] Ilsa Hesse: they were allied with many groups that believed in many similar things... not all people that fought for the Republicans were Red. they would have seen that there are times when justice must be had, even at the risk of dirty hands.
[2011/03/14 08:10] Plot Tracer: and what happened in Iraq? the no fly zone stopped medicines etc from getting to the people of Iraq - Iraq was destroyed by the no fly zone before the invasion.
[2011/03/14 08:12] Ilsa Hesse: there are times when you must do what is right, even if it hurts. do I think the United States should decide the fate of Libya? NO>.. but I DO think that when the people of Libya come asking... begging... for our help, then I am no better than a butcher myself if I do not respond... including recognizing that my, and other governments may have something to offer...

[subsequently, Ilsa sent me this link]
[2011/03/14 17:19] Ilsa Hesse: (Saved Mon Mar 14 21:22:41 2011) http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/14/libyan-rebel-leaders-gaddafi-benghazi
[2011/03/14 17:20] Ilsa Hesse: "no fly zone" is just like any other tool. it is only effective if used in the right spot and at the right time
[2011/03/14 17:24] Ilsa Hesse: the Israeli Air Force has about 200 F-15s and 300 or so F-16s and their own AWACS, a no fly zone would be going directly against Israel's strong suit
[2011/03/14 17:44] Plot Tracer: http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/2299/27/
[2011/03/14 17:45] Ilsa Hesse: as I said earlier, there are all sorts of good reasons to not act when others are in harms way
[2011/03/14 17:49] Plot Tracer: having lived in a war zone, yes, true. But sometimes intervention is not the right thing. This is not Bosnia - and in fact a no fly zone does not stop the war - it steps it up on the ground.
[2011/03/14 17:50] Ilsa Hesse: it does make it harder to import mercenaries, and it does make less dramatic footage of planes strafing school children
[2011/03/14 17:52] Plot Tracer: but does nothing about the more devastating ground warfare. and in fact, will stop med supplies etc in the way it did in Iraq. This is a convo that could go on and on. i would agree with a no fly zone - but with many caveats.
[2011/03/14 17:52] Ilsa Hesse: it will stop medical supplies if that is what the government on the ground wants, yes, that is true
[2011/03/14 17:53] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/03/14 17:54] Plot Tracer: at present, gadaffi - and esp gadaffis son does not want to completely isolate all of those in the rebel areas. So these things will still get through (in fact they have sent med supplies).
[2011/03/14 17:54] Ilsa Hesse nods
[Back to open convo]

[2011/03/14 08:05] IM: Ilsa Hesse: no. I am saying that it should be the people on the ground to make the decision, not a group that is not there, or has a "branch office " there... we are speaking of a place where the _dictator_ is bombing and shooting at his people...
[2011/03/14 08:06] Monarchy Republic: i know it isnt that easy ,though :(
[2011/03/14 08:07] IM: Ilsa Hesse: I believe in the rights of the people to decide their course... and that if they ask, it is the obligation of others to help them gain that course... not to worry whether we will offend some dictator, or our actions may be spun to be disagreeable to someone...

[2011/03/14 08:12] Plot Tracer: I think i want to wrap up now... this has been very interesting. a lot of differeing views . anyone want to sum up their view before we end?
[2011/03/14 08:12] IM: Ilsa Hesse: there are times when you must do what is right, even if it hurts. do I think the United States should decide the fate of Libya? NO>.. but I DO think that when the people of Libya come asking... begging... for our help, then I am no better than a butcher mysel fif I do not respond... including recognizing that my, and other governments may have something to offer...
[2011/03/14 08:12] Monarchy Republic: we are here - we love each other - lets make dinner :)
[2011/03/14 08:13] Eliza Madrigal: :)
[2011/03/14 08:13] Eliza Madrigal: thank you all for the discussion
[2011/03/14 08:14] Plot Tracer: by the way - before we end - if anyone has a suggestion for the next discussion - in the next week - please let me know :)

[2011/03/14 08:15] Monarchy Republic: lol ...how many needles and how big the haystack Plot :P
[2011/03/14 08:15] Nadia Lane laughs about dinner at breakfast time!
[2011/03/14 08:15] Monarchy Republic: :)
[2011/03/14 08:15] Agnes Sharple: its dinnertime here :)
[2011/03/14 08:15] Ilsa Hesse: thanks all, must go, working on a building project :-)
[2011/03/14 08:15] Monarchy Republic: tks Plot ...enjoy ..and eat fresco if possible ;)
[2011/03/14 08:20] IM: Nadia Lane: how would you sum up the convo today?
[2011/03/14 08:22] Plot Tracer: i would say that the people in the room were divided. [Most of] the left in the real world are calling for no intervention. I feel that is painted as a bad thing - but I think the western media and the interests of the west are really pushing this. i think we need to be careful with a no fly zone - it was a disaster for the people of Iraq.

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