Chatlog- Was Osama Bin Laden's assassination justified?

Present: amadeus Belgar; josjoha Resident; Plot Tracer; Takiro Lowey; Will Trevellion; Aleessa Alexandre; Sophiekittycat Resident; Cellardor Resident; Borg Sugarplum; Ataraxia Azemus; Roja Zapatero

This is an emotive discussion and views will be strong. Please speak and listen to others comradely. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/216/13/114

[2011/05/17 07:09] josjoha Resident: unfortunately i don't have much opinion as i think Bin Laden is alredy 10 years dead...
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: oh
[2011/05/17 07:09] Plot Tracer: what makes you think that jos?
[2011/05/17 07:09] josjoha Resident: not that i'm the expert, but the sources i trust more say that

[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: the arab "world" isnt too fussed
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: just the US
[2011/05/17 07:10] josjoha Resident: Bob Chapman said that once a CIA spy said Bin L was already dead - this is years ago - she was murdered by the CIA
[2011/05/17 07:10] Plot Tracer: why do you think this was important to the US?
[2011/05/17 07:10] amadeus Belgar: symbol
[2011/05/17 07:10] Plot Tracer: ie to show he is definately dead now?
[2011/05/17 07:10] josjoha Resident: he was in the CIA and knew the one who reqruited that murdered agent, so that's why he thought that BL was dead in 2002 or something
[2011/05/17 07:11] amadeus Belgar: ah
[2011/05/17 07:11] josjoha Resident: others say that too, and BL was reported as having some sort of fatal disease and was on dialesis machine at his cave - CIA docters tried to save BL life but i guess failed eventually

[2011/05/17 07:12] amadeus Belgar: dialisis ina cave?
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: reportedly there is a lot wrong with the videos from BL as well
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: yep
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: tora bora or something ?
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: the guy was a billionaire or something, friend of the Bush family
[2011/05/17 07:13] amadeus Belgar: at one time he was
[2011/05/17 07:13] josjoha Resident: Bush Jr. got an investment from BL...
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: the in ladens are an oil family
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: *bin
[2011/05/17 07:13] josjoha Resident: they are friends from the mujahadeen affair or something, when Brezinsky set that up against the soviets
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: osama was a rebel son

[2011/05/17 07:13] amadeus Belgar: yes
[2011/05/17 07:14] josjoha Resident: so i guess the whole BL affair is to keep the public busy, destract them, rally them around their king Obama
[2011/05/17 07:14] amadeus Belgar: its a big boost for him
[2011/05/17 07:14] josjoha Resident: reportedly Obama gained 13 points over this, at an all time low
[2011/05/17 07:15] amadeus Belgar: yup
[2011/05/17 07:15] josjoha Resident: i guess its working for them
[2011/05/17 07:16] Plot Tracer: i think bin laden was killed by the us last week... but i think it was wrong to do this. I think the US reasons were to kill off "Emanuel Goldstein" - Obama was using the right wing tactics to defeat the right wing - to get ri of the bogeyman. but I think he was wrong to do it

[2011/05/17 07:16] amadeus Belgar: Pakistan lost 13 civilians just after
[2011/05/17 07:16] josjoha Resident: Bob said something like they knew BL was going to die (from the disease), so they used him to play the boogie man, and they could then play he was dead because he would anyway
[2011/05/17 07:17] amadeus Belgar: Obama will need a new Bogeyman?
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: what was noticeable in the compound - in his bedroom, was the medical equipment and the pills
[2011/05/17 07:17] josjoha Resident: well, either way Plot, whether BL was already dead or not, it is wrong to do this because it ratifies extrajudicial murder in another country no less
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: i think obama wanted to get rid of the right's bogeyman
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: i agree jos
[2011/05/17 07:17] josjoha Resident: Obama should be prosecuted for this, its an act of war and an act of murder
[2011/05/17 07:17] amadeus Belgar: Legal Process?
[2011/05/17 07:18] Plot Tracer: i hate the fact people - and in fact my prime minister and the leader of the opposition here in the IUK - used the word "justice" to describe this excecution.
[2011/05/17 07:18] josjoha Resident: most think there is no legal recourse in the USA anymore, i agree to that guess
[2011/05/17 07:18] Plot Tracer: *UK
[2011/05/17 07:18] amadeus Belgar: well its painted as a WAR situation so anything goes
[2011/05/17 07:18] josjoha Resident: hence the way to get justice against USA ruling classes.... is more or less revolution

[2011/05/17 07:19] amadeus Belgar: continual terror
[2011/05/17 07:19] josjoha Resident: yes that's true, but it is another nation that is not a threat and they are not officially at war either
[2011/05/17 07:19] josjoha Resident: and as far as i know Pakistan does not allow USA executions of people in their territory ??
[2011/05/17 07:20] josjoha Resident: even if they do, i don't think USA law or tradition allows it either ?
[2011/05/17 07:20] Plot Tracer: yes - 1984 style, amadeus. tho i genuinely think that obama did this to end this "continual war" as it has, regardless of all the denials, come to look like a war between two civilisations - and obama and the went do not need thsat. they need the oil and a placated arab world
[2011/05/17 07:20] josjoha Resident: yeah Amadeus, they need a new boogie man, i heard they have put out 4 new ones at the head of Al-CIA-da
[2011/05/17 07:20] Plot Tracer: *west
[2011/05/17 07:21] amadeus Belgar: Oh


[2011/05/17 07:21] josjoha Resident: i think they want to drive the world to WW3, because they know the economy is going to collapse and then ppl will really get angry
[2011/05/17 07:21] josjoha Resident: hence they need a huge war to keep the people busy and off their backs
[2011/05/17 07:21] amadeus Belgar: Did they get a lot of inf from the compound which incidentally has been recreated in SL
[2011/05/17 07:22] Plot Tracer: i think obama and the US are getting reay for the class war and feel they cant fight on two fronts. especially as the poor nations will be rising up as well as their own poor.
[2011/05/17 07:22] Plot Tracer: *ready
[2011/05/17 07:22] josjoha Resident: Bob also said they are trying to provoke Russia to make WW3 happen, and attack Iran, others said a war with CHina (which i think they'll probably want)
[2011/05/17 07:22] amadeus Belgar: well
[2011/05/17 07:23] amadeus Belgar: what signs of war then?
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: 1929 crash, 1939 war

[2011/05/17 07:23] Plot Tracer: the middle classes across the west are shrinking. and the upper middle classes are going to start feeling the pinch... so capitalism is in trouble.
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: yes, and the government lending game is exploding
[2011/05/17 07:23] amadeus Belgar: because of the bad economy?
[2011/05/17 07:23] Plot Tracer: i dont believe the west want war... i believe they want to control, which is different

[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: 'magically' all accross the board
[2011/05/17 07:24] amadeus Belgar: but eonomic control is diff when you are in debt
[2011/05/17 07:24] josjoha Resident: yes the bad economy driving ppl to revolution
[2011/05/17 07:24] Plot Tracer shouts: come in to the bar!
[2011/05/17 07:24] amadeus Belgar: eventually
[2011/05/17 07:24] josjoha Resident: plot i think they want control, but war is a good means to get that for them
[2011/05/17 07:25] josjoha Resident: so we are basically back at where we where during WW1...
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: i dont necessarily think so. i think they see what trouble iraq/ afghanistan caused not only in theior own countries - but the fact they COULDNT control
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: that has made them think again
[2011/05/17 07:25] josjoha Resident: the need to strike this new world war out of existence and transform it into the revolution the reactionary enemies feared and use the war against
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: even libya is difficult for them.
[2011/05/17 07:26] amadeus Belgar: yes its not easy now
[2011/05/17 07:26] josjoha Resident: eventually their forces would be spread quite thin i guess, imperial overstretch before their implosion ?
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: they got the biggest military in the world
[2011/05/17 07:27] josjoha Resident: then again, they don't want Iraq stable because then their troops might have no excuse to stay and conrol oil, and no excuse to stay for the assault on iran ?? (who can tell i guess)

[2011/05/17 07:27] Plot Tracer: i think obama is smart enough to see that and is playing an endgame where the middle east is concerned. he wants the US to control - byt being nicve - not through war.
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: use subsides?
[2011/05/17 07:27] josjoha Resident: why does he keep afghanistan and iraq occupied then ?
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: like with egypt?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: (or should i say: why do his bosses order Obama to do that)
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: Obama is in my opinion only a low level rat
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: who runs the world any way?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: money
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: not govs
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: no not govs i think
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: what does money want then?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: more money
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:29] Plot Tracer: i think he will pull out of iraq and afghanistan - but a new us friendly administration will emerge. same with afghanisitan... tho it is a very different country
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: troops in oil countries
[2011/05/17 07:29] Plot Tracer: capital runs the world
[2011/05/17 07:29] josjoha Resident: more money, more control, and less accountibility - so they want tyranny
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: whats new?
[2011/05/17 07:29] josjoha Resident: that's probably their goal plot

[2011/05/17 07:30] josjoha Resident: there's 4 ppl outside the bar
[2011/05/17 07:30] amadeus Belgar: yes Iraq will still have a huge US troop pescence even when they withdraw
[2011/05/17 07:30] Takiro Lowey: The world runs on its own, people like to use different means, like money, religion, force and others to gain control. More ore less successful
[2011/05/17 07:30] amadeus Belgar: hi guys in here..........
[2011/05/17 07:30] josjoha Resident: i guess that's the CIA, NSA, ONI and homeland security eavesdropping ; ) (just kidding)
[2011/05/17 07:31] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:32] amadeus Belgar: i ben too busy chasing the opposite sex!
[2011/05/17 07:32] Will Trevellion: So how's the discussion going so far?
[2011/05/17 07:32] Takiro Lowey smiles.
[2011/05/17 07:33] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:33] amadeus Belgar: well its broadened out
[2011/05/17 07:33] Plot Tracer: people are giving their opinions. there are different opinions :) and that is good.
[2011/05/17 07:33] Plot Tracer: do you have an opinion on the killing takiro and will?
[2011/05/17 07:33] Will Trevellion: Yes I do
[2011/05/17 07:34] Plot Tracer: ok - tell us :)
[2011/05/17 07:34] Takiro Lowey: Yeah, there usually are a lot of different perspectives. That's interesting.
[2011/05/17 07:34] Will Trevellion: ok - well despite the atrocities Bin Laden encouraged, I still think it a disgrace to humanity that he was killed in such a way

[2011/05/17 07:35] Takiro Lowey: Well, I have an ambivalent feeling about the killing itself, much is in the shadows from my point of view if it was necessairy at that moment. Anyways.
[2011/05/17 07:35] Takiro Lowey: I strongly disagree with all the celebrations afterwards though-.
[2011/05/17 07:35] josjoha Resident: oh by the way, some story i didn't know at all but that couldbe similar: Bob thought that Saddam Hussein wasn't killed either, but perhaps living somewhere in central asia
[2011/05/17 07:36] Sophiekittycat Resident: hello
[2011/05/17 07:36] Plot Tracer: cool - yes - i think the killing should not have happened. I think he should have been brought to justice. does anyone think there may be a reason why he never stood in front of a court?
[2011/05/17 07:36] Plot Tracer: he soph
[2011/05/17 07:36] josjoha Resident: (another old CIA boy, i guess)
[2011/05/17 07:36] josjoha Resident: sophie !
[2011/05/17 07:36] amadeus Belgar: he would have spilt too many beans
[2011/05/17 07:36] Will Trevellion: The killing of Bin Laden was watched by Obama and various others - yet we know little of it
[2011/05/17 07:37] Sophiekittycat Resident: because it is so easy to capture someone who not want to becaptured ?
[2011/05/17 07:37] Takiro Lowey: The circumstances of that fight might have made it impossible to capture him alive.
[2011/05/17 07:37] Will Trevellion: It seems to me the Americans are hell bent on killing people who's countries THEY invade

[2011/05/17 07:37] Takiro Lowey: If the goal of that operation was to kill him though I don't really agree.
[2011/05/17 07:38] Will Trevellion: Hussein, Bin Laden - Gadaffi next
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: bend laden country have never be invaded sorry
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: benladen is from saudi arabia
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: and he was not a resistant
[2011/05/17 07:38] Plot Tracer: (amadeus and jos - i know we are going over some stuff we already covered - but i think it is important to do so for the new arrivals :)
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: dont mistake irak invasion and to kick out talibans from afghanistan
[2011/05/17 07:39] Takiro Lowey: He, I'm sorry. I was asked for my oppinion ^^
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is ok plot i will adapt :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: as i say mine, it is why we are here :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] amadeus Belgar: fine
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we can say it and stay kind :) we are all nice here :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] Takiro Lowey: INdeed

[2011/05/17 07:39] josjoha Resident: we know they lie about everything so why would they tell the truth on this supposed murder - maybe they don't, anything that is official i don't take it serious at all though frankly to hear some of the theories of what may have happened (such as dead from a disease 10 years ago, or Saddam being alive) ... (truth = stranger then fiction, comes to mind)
[2011/05/17 07:40] Plot Tracer: ok - why do you think obama chose to take him out now? Do ypou think he chose his moment? do u think there was a reason he was killed? i mean, was he a threat in anyway?
[2011/05/17 07:40] Will Trevellion: Bin Laden was first and foremost an Arab nationalist who was enraged by the presence of foreign armies on his homelands
[2011/05/17 07:40] Takiro Lowey: Jos, indeed, it is difficult to look at the truth through all the fog and shadows. At least it is for me.
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: i doubt that obama was a saint........... terrorism, call to racial hate, to terror to murders, dont tell me that someone cry this rat death ?
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: that osama
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: oops that osama was a saint
[2011/05/17 07:41] josjoha Resident: takiro, yes, frankly i only check sources such as prisonplanet.com and bob chapman, al martin, ...
[2011/05/17 07:41] Will Trevellion: Fundamentally, to shoot any unarmed person in the head is totally unacceptable IMO

[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: you were here to know he was unarmed ?
[2011/05/17 07:42] amadeus Belgar: there were weapons within reach they said but still no excuse
[2011/05/17 07:42] josjoha Resident: the more you watch the news, the less you know
[2011/05/17 07:42] Takiro Lowey: Will: Yes, but I wans#t there.
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: you could be sure he had not a weapon ? or a bomb system ?
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry if osama was a saint hitler was a saint
[2011/05/17 07:42] Will Trevellion: If he had, don't you think all those who watched the killing would have said so by now?
[2011/05/17 07:43] josjoha Resident: plot, ok, so to repeat: i'm ofthe opinion (because of sources that seem more credible to me) that Osama has been dead for 10 years, died from a disease despite USA medical personell trying to save the life of this old Bush buddy
[2011/05/17 07:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: we talk of osama death and noone care dto talk of arabians revolts we care more this rat death than the women children and men who fight for freedom ?
[2011/05/17 07:43] Plot Tracer: Does everyone know who Emmanuel Goldstein was?
[2011/05/17 07:43] Plot Tracer: is?
[2011/05/17 07:43] josjoha Resident: no, who is he plot ?
[2011/05/17 07:44] Will Trevellion: I am not sure - enlighten me?
[2011/05/17 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: 1984
[2011/05/17 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: goerges orwell
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes sophi

[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: "the bogey man"
[2011/05/17 07:44] josjoha Resident: sophie, of course not, hopefully they will manage to make improvements in arabia even if their efforts may be infiltrated
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: the reason why they are at continual war
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: why did obama want rid of the bogey man?
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: oh that character, the head of the fake resistence
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes osama was used by bush as a kind of goldstein but at contrary of goldstein who was a creation , a ghost osama was real and killing people
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: to give the USA people a sense of accomplishment
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: was osama killing people?
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes usa created ben laden and then ben laden have turned against them
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: to pretend all the effort was worthwhile
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: osama killed people
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: i know he had in the past... but for ten years he was in a huge compound beside a military base in pakistan...
[2011/05/17 07:46] josjoha Resident: sophie, i think osama was not real, but a buddy of the Bush cabal and stuff, who funded and deployed them against the usa public mostly for PR

[2011/05/17 07:46] amadeus Belgar: The european terrorists were home grown
[2011/05/17 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: osama was helped by parts of pakistani secret services
[2011/05/17 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha and elvis presley is planning invasion with marsians ?
[2011/05/17 07:47] josjoha Resident: pakistani servises where said (yeah what do we know, but what sourses are there ...) to be budies with the USA security services
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: ²if all is plots if all is subversion one of us of course is a mossad and cia agent
[2011/05/17 07:47] amadeus Belgar: not me
[2011/05/17 07:47] josjoha Resident: elvis presley is dead sophie
[2011/05/17 07:47] amadeus Belgar: good one
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha evil people exist , murderers exists , and they are not just maericans or politicians
[2011/05/17 07:47] Takiro Lowey chuckles.
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: and osama is dead too
[2011/05/17 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: but there is people who think elvis is alive
[2011/05/17 07:48] josjoha Resident: that may be the case as well sophie, reality can be difficult
[2011/05/17 07:48] amadeus Belgar: what as elvis got to do with this?

[2011/05/17 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: reallity is difficult , people can be murderers monsters
[2011/05/17 07:48] josjoha Resident: yes, and various criminal groups can work together and design their schemes
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: but will we cry on osama when people in lybia in syria need help ? need people to fight for them ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: what do you think corruption is ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] Plot Tracer: i dont believe in evil. i believe in cause.
[2011/05/17 07:49] Will Trevellion: not all murderous monsters are total lunatics
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: dark deeds in secret
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: or the death of a terrorist is more important than freedom fight of innocents ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] Plot Tracer: there were reasons behind this terrorism as real as the IRA or UDA or INLA or Ref Faction etc
[2011/05/17 07:49] Will Trevellion: I don't think anyone says it is Sophie
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: nobody said that sophie
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot religiosu madness of osama is a real reason
[2011/05/17 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot you are european as me you know that we killed each others for religion for centuries
[2011/05/17 07:50] josjoha Resident: the secret servise agents, even if here, should not be a problem because their numbers are very low compared to the people, so they are drowned out by democratic protocol
[2011/05/17 07:50] Will Trevellion: still are doing
[2011/05/17 07:50] Plot Tracer: but - i think murderers in organisations like this who enjoy killing "the other" have mental problems - and would have been killers under other circumstances. i believe anyone who enjoys killing would have found reasons to do so.
[2011/05/17 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: propaganda brain washing , religious fantism it is enougth

[2011/05/17 07:50] josjoha Resident: osama was not a muslim, because he invested money on profit
[2011/05/17 07:51] josjoha Resident: which is a big no no in >Islam (as it should, by the way)
[2011/05/17 07:51] Plot Tracer: no jos - his family were oil people - ARE oil people
[2011/05/17 07:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: catholicism say dont kill each others and it not prevented catholics to kill each others
[2011/05/17 07:51] josjoha Resident: what they d owith money ? reportedly Osama invested it with Bush's upstart, could be zapata oil
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: but sophie - do ALL catholics do that? do most? do a large fraction?
[2011/05/17 07:52] Mila Tatham is Online
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: but some
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: so it is nothing about the religion
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: and not all muslims are terrorists
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: it is about what affected that person to do so
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: but some catholics were butchers then some muslims can be bucthers
[2011/05/17 07:52] Will Trevellion: agreed Plot

[2011/05/17 07:52] josjoha Resident: catholics tend to kill non-catholics
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is not because you are not white not european or american that you cant be a bastard
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha reread history
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: they can use religion as a reason - but i believe anyone who kills people for pleasure - or takes pleasure in killing "the other" is mentally ill.
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: what were war in europe
[2011/05/17 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha catholics killed each others fro more than 1500 years
[2011/05/17 07:53] Will Trevellion: I think you are right there Plot - but what determines mentally ill?
[2011/05/17 07:53] Plot Tracer: "not all muslims are terrorists..." - are most? half? 30%? 0.1%?
[2011/05/17 07:53] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/05/17 07:53] Takiro Lowey: sophie: I got lost now what point you are trying to make.
[2011/05/17 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: justa few just 0.00001% of muslims
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: sociopath/ psychopathic etc
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: are u sure about that figure, sooph?
[2011/05/17 07:54] josjoha Resident: yes will, that sounds wrong on that point, what is 'mentally ill' ? are ppl who are 'mentally ill' now mass murderers ?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Will Trevellion: who is to say we aren't all nuts
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: no - but i believe those who murder have a mental illness.
[2011/05/17 07:54] Takiro Lowey: Plot is stating taht he deosn't believe in evil, and you talk about wars. Yes there where wars a lot of the, some of them where cause by a misguided view ion religion so ?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Will Trevellion: or - are all mental patients, potential murderers?

[2011/05/17 07:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot i have not the numbers but i am sure there is a smuch nice people in muslims that in other religions
[2011/05/17 07:55] josjoha Resident: sophie attempts to proof that Osama could have been a religious fanatic, adn that therefore the Government PR stunt (in my opinion it was that) could have been true ?
[2011/05/17 07:55] amadeus Belgar: i dont this religious conflicts are about religion
[2011/05/17 07:55] Takiro Lowey: Excuse my spelling.
[2011/05/17 07:55] Plot Tracer: Will - of course not. but those who kill for pleasure or take pleasure in killing have a mental illness. this doesnt mean all people with mentall illnesses are potential killers tho.
[2011/05/17 07:56] Will Trevellion: yes I agree with you Plot - but who has the right to determine who is mentally ill and who is not - mental illness is caused by many things
[2011/05/17 07:56] josjoha Resident: i think it is sufficient to say they have broken laws if they kill, and must be prosecuted and punished
[2011/05/17 07:57] Plot Tracer: well - i can say that i can determine that those who kill for pleasure are mentally ill. it does not take much determining :) but then we have to look at the causes of that mental illness.
[2011/05/17 07:57] amadeus Belgar: in a crazy world the crazy ones can be sane
[2011/05/17 07:57] Will Trevellion: Yes the determination/reason of why people do things is often overlooked by the demand for a "justice"
[2011/05/17 07:58] josjoha Resident: i don't agree that murderers are necessarily mentally ill, though many could also be that or become that because of their activities, i don't know
[2011/05/17 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: and someone reading us now could doubt of our mental sanity ?

[2011/05/17 07:58] Will Trevellion: very true Sophie - lol
[2011/05/17 07:58] Plot Tracer: look at the biggest killers in our society... Bush, Blair, Cheney etc. Do you think they were parented properly? Do you think that someone who will decimate a country to improve their bank balances are mentally stable?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Trent Infinity: I agree with Plot, you have to have some sort of cognitive disconnect to be able to kill another
[2011/05/17 07:59] Trent Infinity: the question is: what is causing the disconnect
[2011/05/17 07:59] Will Trevellion: Well let me ask a question
[2011/05/17 07:59] josjoha Resident: you could equally say that people's who support the wars ofwestern miiltaries are mentally ill - so in effect almost everyone is mentally ill (isn't it a sign of retardation to think Iraq could be a military threat to the west ? i think so)
[2011/05/17 07:59] amadeus Belgar: we get brain washed
[2011/05/17 07:59] amadeus Belgar: dont we?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Will Trevellion: IF one of your relatives/children etc was murdered, would YOU want to murder the murderer?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha but that people who suport other countries are mentaly ok ?
[2011/05/17 08:00] josjoha Resident: i didn't say that sophie
[2011/05/17 08:00] amadeus Belgar: voice?
[2011/05/17 08:00] amadeus Belgar: heard a voice?
[2011/05/17 08:00] Will Trevellion: wasn't me
[2011/05/17 08:00] Borg Sugarplum: i have come to tell you why esperanto is for optimising the human race

[2011/05/17 08:00] Plot Tracer: well josh - if there was a rule to say the first born of the president or prime minister was to be strapped to the front of the first tank in an invasion, do u think they would have allowed it? They are disconnected (to use Trents term) from their war.
[2011/05/17 08:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am never in voice i dont understand spoken english
[2011/05/17 08:01] amadeus Belgar: well its a young voice
[2011/05/17 08:01] josjoha Resident: there are often reasons for murder, such as getting rid of a criminal who is not otherwise gotten rid off - think of a society without law enforcement for example
[2011/05/17 08:01] Borg Sugarplum: well
[2011/05/17 08:01] Takiro Lowey: I have voice turned off. You should pe able to see in your nearby people window who ist alking
[2011/05/17 08:01] Will Trevellion: That surely depends on which part of England someone is living - accents do vary greatly Sophie
[2011/05/17 08:01] Plot Tracer: Well, Will, coming from northern ireland, i cant say i would. i have seen death like this... but i know few people who wanted to go out and kill more. they wanted justice yes... but they also did not want someone lelses son/daughter dead.
[2011/05/17 08:02] amadeus Belgar: its BORG
[2011/05/17 08:02] amadeus Belgar: sugarplum
[2011/05/17 08:02] Will Trevellion: Good point Plot
[2011/05/17 08:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: no will it is that english is not my language
[2011/05/17 08:02] Will Trevellion: what is your language?
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: to
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: left leaning comrades

[2011/05/17 08:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am french
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: into my esperanto class
[2011/05/17 08:03] amadeus Belgar: ok
[2011/05/17 08:03] Plot Tracer: ok - can we finish the discussion. if everyone sums up their feelings on this in one paragraph... remember the question was - Was Osama Bin Laden's assassination justified? Oh - and do people mind if i publish this on www.slleftunity.com
[2011/05/17 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot why to use assassination word ?
[2011/05/17 08:04] Will Trevellion: No to both questions
[2011/05/17 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we should use death not assassination
[2011/05/17 08:04] Plot Tracer: if u disagree with it soph - say so in your paragraph
[2011/05/17 08:04] Borg Sugarplum: how do you know me
[2011/05/17 08:04] Borg Sugarplum: no
[2011/05/17 08:04] Cellardor Resident also says no to both questions
[2011/05/17 08:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: assassination it make us side with ben laden
[2011/05/17 08:05] josjoha Resident: this person, whoever he was (i don't think Osama), was in another nation and there was no serious 'hot' war front between these nations, secondly 'terorrism' is a crime and not an invading army, they should have maintained their own justice inide the usa and could ask politely for extradition for crimes committed on their soil and that's all

[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: ardent socialist
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: i think we should read
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: from
[2011/05/17 08:06] Borg Sugarplum: some anarchist texts
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha he was hidding and doing a terror was against people
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha ben laden was as dangerous for people than bush
[2011/05/17 08:06] josjoha Resident: sophie, yes, so they could ask that nation for an extradition and that's it
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: he was hidding and protected by secret services
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: by parts of secret services
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: noone knew where he was
[2011/05/17 08:07] Plot Tracer: ok my last paragraph. I believe Osama was assasinated - I believe he had secrets that would not have suited the present world order. i believe tho, obama and his administration wanted to get rid of the bogeyman of the east in order to anticipate what is coming - ie a class/economic/ecological new phase...
[2011/05/17 08:07] amadeus Belgar: US asked Taliban for Osama

[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: he refused to surrender
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: trend i remember you from the other day
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: trent
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: the oil talk
[2011/05/17 08:07] josjoha Resident: in fact i have heard (but what do we know) various nations have offered to bring Osama to the usa, but the usa didn't want it because they needed Osama as the boogey man - it is all a great theatre, imho
[2011/05/17 08:07] Will Trevellion: many refuse to surreneder but are not shot through the head
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: and talibans are nota country they are butchers and slavers
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: ahmedinejad for world president
[2011/05/17 08:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: the one who say talibans are a legitimate group then support women slavery
[2011/05/17 08:08] Borg Sugarplum: sophie any democracy is bad when 60% of men vote rape is ok, this occurs with any kind of standardisation of vote, voting is a crude representation of what people think
[2011/05/17 08:08] josjoha Resident: Borg, lol
[2011/05/17 08:08] Will Trevellion: I don't support the Taliban - I simply say the way in which Bin Laden was executed was unacceptable
[2011/05/17 08:08] Borg Sugarplum: its why you need fracturing, and diminished government
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: so people can experiment with their own kind of mini states
[2011/05/17 08:09] Cellardor Resident: cite your source for those statistics, Borg
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: cellador, what statistics
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: i gave an example of how democracy can fail
[2011/05/17 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: i will not cry on ben laden, he refused to surrender it washis right, a rat is dead there is still many rats waiting to be erased

[2011/05/17 08:09] Cellardor Resident: you stated "... 60% of men vote rape is ok ..."
[2011/05/17 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: and not 60 % of men think rape is ok
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: yes, when 60% of men vote rape is ok, the measure gets passed
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: thats a fail
[2011/05/17 08:10] Plot Tracer: OK - has the osama iscussion ende?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Plot Tracer: ended?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Ataraxia Azemus: As long as 80% of women don't vote against it :p
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: because democracy works with educated people
[2011/05/17 08:10] Cellardor Resident: Oh, a fictitious hypothetical on yoor part?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: its social proofing of peoples thoughts and happens all the time
[2011/05/17 08:10] josjoha Resident: sophie, so yu approve of extra-judicial excecutions, or to use another word for that: death-squads ?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Will Trevellion: I thik it has Plot - this is deviation
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: yes
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: no sophie
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha if someone refuse to surrender ina fight what do you do ?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: it doesnt because
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: my views are different to yours
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: if he can kill you you kill him before
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: and i dont want standardisation
[2011/05/17 08:11] Plot Tracer: ok cool. those who want to continue chatting cool - go for it. those who were part of the osama convo - are u ok with me publishing a chatlog?
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: sophie, oh ok, well i agree to that
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: why not experiment with 100 forms of society, why just choose one
[2011/05/17 08:11] Will Trevellion: yes ok Plot - why not
[2011/05/17 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: we talk of an hidding terrororist in a situation which usa had an agreement with pakistan for such intervention
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: provided the arresting party is legal, which in this case they wheren't as far as i know
[2011/05/17 08:11] Cellardor Resident: we have, it's called history of civilization, Borg
[2011/05/17 08:11] Roja Zapatero: hi everybody
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: (legal and justified)
[2011/05/17 08:11] amadeus Belgar: they werent
[2011/05/17 08:11] Ataraxia Azemus: Some versions of the story do have bin Laden surrendering...I don't really know what happened, but he was unarmed at least. I don't think the US had any intention of capturing him, though.
[2011/05/17 08:11] amadeus Belgar: hi roja
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: Cellador what makes you think this form is perfect, if at every point in history we have changed and moved on?
[2011/05/17 08:12] Will Trevellion: Agreed Ataraxia
[2011/05/17 08:12] josjoha Resident: sophie, ah ok, so then maybe if Pakistan agrees to this kind of intervention, then there is a possible argument that it is right
[2011/05/17 08:12] Will Trevellion: and they have no intention of capturing ghadafi alive either
[2011/05/17 08:12] Cellardor Resident: I didnt say I think it is perfect. I dont think that at all
[2011/05/17 08:12] Borg Sugarplum: but then why do you think we should not experiment more?
[2011/05/17 08:13] Will Trevellion: Shall we come back and discuss when Ghadafi is executed?
[2011/05/17 08:13] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: that ben laden died as the rat he was not make me sad, what make me angry is that bush will escape what he done
[2011/05/17 08:13] amadeus Belgar: no he has a trial in the cards
[2011/05/17 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is men that the planet not need to cry
[2011/05/17 08:13] josjoha Resident: sophie, what makes you think Bush will escape us ?
[2011/05/17 08:13] Cellardor Resident: Perhaps I just objected to the idea of experimentation in such a context
[2011/05/17 08:13] Will Trevellion: I disagree Sophie - that is a very inhumane statement
[2011/05/17 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha what make you think he will not escape ?
[2011/05/17 08:14] Borg Sugarplum: Cellador: you think people should not have what they want? if anarchists want to live here and capitalists here and opensource lovers here?
[2011/05/17 08:14] Borg Sugarplum: have you guys heard of the free states project
[2011/05/17 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: will the inhumane statement is to ccry over ben landen death to make it more important asa subject that thoses dying in libya in syria for their freedom
[2011/05/17 08:14] amadeus Belgar: no
[2011/05/17 08:14] Cellardor Resident: Im all for that, Borg.
[2011/05/17 08:15] amadeus Belgar: good point
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: the free states project is where libetarians pledge to move to new hampshire and they have 11000 people signed up, its really cool because they can vote in the kind of government they want
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: if successful i think you will see alot more like this
[2011/05/17 08:15] josjoha Resident: my system, which i hope ppl will do, it will be effective (i think), we set many goverments to a high level of non-corruption, then we engage in a great law enforcement effort and part of that i we find the Bush family, and all the others; i hope and think we will find enough convicting evidence, and they did enough crime when not acting heads of state
[2011/05/17 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: i hate everyone death but i find more disgusting to consider ben landen death more important than thoses dying for freedom of their famillies
[2011/05/17 08:15] Takiro Lowey: sophi: Well, there been people, kindof dancing on his grave, do you think that is ok ?
[2011/05/17 08:15] josjoha Resident: Borg, yes i heard of that
[2011/05/17 08:15] amadeus Belgar: ok
[2011/05/17 08:15] Will Trevellion: Sophie - if you cannot see the death of anyone as a hmm .... sad event....then I feel sad for you
[2011/05/17 08:15] Cellardor Resident: Do you intend to secede?
[2011/05/17 08:15] Ataraxia Azemus: I don't have much love for bin Laden, but I think the assasination makes the US lose face.
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: ok time to eat now
[2011/05/17 08:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: no no it is not ok to dance on someone death but people have always been inhumane
[2011/05/17 08:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we have more important to cry on than him
[2011/05/17 08:16] josjoha Resident: Borg, i think it is not a smart move to set up that state, because you concentrate active people there who would then be easily murdered
[2011/05/17 08:16] Will Trevellion: that does not mean you can't shed a tear and move on
[2011/05/17 08:17] Takiro Lowey: This isn't all about crying, it is reflecting on actions and thinking, and that is important.
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: lol not that I did - but I was saddened by the way
[2011/05/17 08:17] Plot Tracer: personally- i think any death is a tragedy
[2011/05/17 08:17] Takiro Lowey: At least for me. Just because this is discussed, doesn't mean we do not think about other things as well.
[2011/05/17 08:17] josjoha Resident: that's true sophie, but if we decry the murder its not for Bin laden, but for the loss of the proces of justice
[2011/05/17 08:17] Ataraxia Azemus: I don't have to feel sorry for bin Laden to still find the US' actions questionable :p
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: agreed tai
[2011/05/17 08:17] Ataraxia Azemus: Right, Jos
[2011/05/17 08:17] Sophiekittycat Resident: will i hate violence i am paralyzed by violence, i find uggly to be happy of someone death but when i see ben laden death and what happen around on planet ?

[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: sorry Tak
[2011/05/17 08:17] Cellardor Resident nods to the last few ccomments
[2011/05/17 08:18] Will Trevellion: I see what you say Sophie - but one death affects many
[2011/05/17 08:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: and i will appologize ( near as usual) for being perhaps too passionate in my feelings
[2011/05/17 08:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry i was perhaps rude by moments
[2011/05/17 08:18] Plot Tracer: soph - i love your rudness! :) you say what you feel - which is always good.
[2011/05/17 08:18] josjoha Resident: sophie, i don't cry over the death of that SOB bin laden either, why ? he was a murderer he got his own medicine
[2011/05/17 08:19] Takiro Lowey: I agree with you Plot
[2011/05/17 08:19] Plot Tracer: I learn every week from other people here. this is good - this is the purpose of these discussions. and it is good to know what to disagree with as well :)
[2011/05/17 08:19] josjoha Resident: okay sophie
[2011/05/17 08:20] josjoha Resident: many can scream and shout (me too), not so many apologise for anything
[2011/05/17 08:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: the lesson is that sometime the death one one can affect us more than thousand of nameless people death
[2011/05/17 08:20] Will Trevellion: yes
[2011/05/17 08:21] amadeus Belgar: i prefer to deal with numbers of dead
[2011/05/17 08:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: and it is a sad lesson
[2011/05/17 08:21] amadeus Belgar: each person has value
[2011/05/17 08:21] josjoha Resident: sophie, i sometimes hear ppl decry the French Terror after the French Revolution; then i wonder when they start crying over the deaths those ruling
classes, barons and kings have caused unashamedly over the centuries before
[2011/05/17 08:21] Will Trevellion: You have to have lost a loved one before you can truly understand the meaning of death
[2011/05/17 08:21] Ataraxia Azemus: Adios, Roja
[2011/05/17 08:21] josjoha Resident: secondly, they probably don't wonder about the risk those then defeated classes regain their footing to start another reign of misery
[2011/05/17 08:22] Roja Zapatero: see you, bye
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: who decries the victims of those classes ?
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot what do you think of the antiwar songs site ?
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha french terror was pure madness
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: i call it a warning sign to tyrants
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha terror killed people from all sides just for madness fear and politic

[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: and who support them
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: hm, oh that's odd ? didn't they mainly kill the nobility at least ?
[2011/05/17 08:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha we not had so much nobles in france
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: well, the guillutine was a mercifull killer, too
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: you had that sun-king...
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: i'm glad you got rid of those
[2011/05/17 08:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: the sun king died of old age :)
[2011/05/17 08:24] josjoha Resident: i know, but his descendents, louis 15th, 16th..
[2011/05/17 08:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: louis 16 lost his head yes
[2011/05/17 08:25] Sophiekittycat Resident: but louis 16 was too the one who helped usa to become a republic
[2011/05/17 08:25] amadeus Belgar: was that good?
[2011/05/17 08:25] josjoha Resident: so, that's what happens if ruling classes push it too far ... they better remember it
[2011/05/17 08:26] Plot Tracer: ok - before i go - if anyone wold like to sugest topics for next week that would be cool. im them to me :)…
[2011/05/17 08:29] Will Trevellion: bye everyone - look forward to another interesting afternoon
[2011/05/17 08:36] SLLU donation box: Thank you, Sophiekittycat Resident for your donation to SLLU !

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Letter to Obama

Continuing our series of Obama letters from SLLU members. This one is from Green Hawks.

Obama Open letter,

>>>>>Rose Tinted Glasses

Obama is to be sworn in tommorrow! woot :D

There is alot of hope pinned on Obama, some already swept with Obama mania, which is great tho; all should be wary as with all politicians!
In todays age of torture, war & erosion of rights.

"We aren't engaged in any negative protest and in any negative arguments with anybody. We are saying that we are determined to be men. We are determined to be people. We are saying that we are God's children. And that we don't have to live like we are forced to live." -

Martin Luther King


>>>>Obama Oil
Obama has promised to change a number of exective orders issue by Oil man Bush;one being selling a state park in Utah to Oil drilling company.

CNN -Obama may intervene

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo7SzRoYHZs

Yahoo AP - Obama Declines to comment

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2008Nov25/0,4670,NationalParksDrilling,00.html

Actor Robert Redford, a longtime environmental activist, called the lease sale "morally criminal.

Obama has promised to veto many of Bush`s Exective orders, will he act?


>>>>>>>Obamas Appointees

Obama`s Latest Appointee

1. Obama`s Latest Appointee is current Chairman & Bank President of the Federal Reserve Bank Timothy F. Geithner. Democrats are in awe as this is the primary architect of the Bush administration’s response to the financial crisis!

2. In the first major appointment of his administration, President-elect Barack Obama has named as his chief of staff Congressman Rahm Emanuel, a dual Israeli/USA citizen?
Kashkari was a Vice President at Goldman, Sachs & Co. now head of the U,S Treasury

􀀁

>>>>>Goldman Sachs & JP Morgan caused US Economy Meltdown

The tag team of JPMorgan as the monster and Goldman Sachs as its harlot represent a powerful pair that is more responsible for destroying the entire US financial system than 95% of the American public has any awareness. The colossus of JPMorgan is a monster, a predator, nurtured by pond scum. It has gobbled up Chase Manhattan, Manufacturers Hanover, Chemical Bank, Bank One, and more over the past two decades.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article6826.html

􀀀

>>>>>>>Obamas Men : Important disclosure

Whilst many would like to believe Obama is going to make things better.. there is certain facts about him and his chosen cabinet that now fit in with his career history with the elites.

Webster Tarpley is an Accredited Historian & is a regular authority to History channel and to political world history as well as many books.

Understand today what to expect...

Part 1: The Men Behind Obama : runtime 9:05 mins
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MouUJNG8f2k&feature=related
Part 2: The Men Behind Obama: runtime 10:05 mins
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e-KJCMWcoms&feature=related

􀀂

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How will American Liberals justify Obama’s acts of murder?

>Opinion by SLLU member Anango Magic

We have heard report after report of the many “accomplishments” in the first few days of Barack Obama's new presidency, and yet he still can't shake off that whole war loving imperialist ugliness that plagues America.

“ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - The death toll from two suspected U.S. missile attacks on al-Qaida bases in northwest Pakistan has risen to 22, officials and residents said Saturday. Eight suspected foreign militants were among the dead. ” [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28811723/]

This is one of the many things left behind by the Bush Administration that President Obama is obviously in favor of continuing. Out of 22 casualties, only 8 were SUSPECTED as militant terrorists; I Guess that makes the 14 innocent deaths a 50/50 weigh out, and this is just in the first 4 days!

In the past 8 years, I have been disgusted, and many times absolutely horrified on how the Right justified these types of genocide, but now that Obama has taken the helm of this ship and obviously plans to stay the course, How will the American left justify them?

If history has taught us anything, it's that in order to justify horrendous act's such as this, we simply give it a different name. The Clinton administration didn't want to call the atrocities in Rwanda genocide until much later, when half a million were slaughtered. So I can only imagine what words the "progressives" are going to use to justify more recent atrocities, primarily the ones carried out by US forces.

I don't want to only focuse on who's in power, I want to also focus on the people. I don't want to believe that the millions who voted for this man, who praise every little footstep he makes, will start saying that these continued attacks are necessary, just because it's their man doing it. We would have verbally crucified the past administration for this, and I would hope we do the same with our new administration, but I have not seen much evidence to convince me of that.

During the Inauguration events in Second Life, I was amazed at the absurdity of comments coming from the “smartest people in the world “ [http://slleftunity.blogspot.com/2009/01/netroots-nations-progressiveness.html]. Many of these people seem to think that every error of the past will now be erased with our new fresh face of imperialism.

Barack Obama is nothing more then an appointed politician, and people need to remember that. The change we need will NOT be brought by a politician. To sit by and expect change from a politician gives you nothing but a crushing disappointment.

It's absurd to say that closing Gitmo in 100 days is an accomplishment. It's absurd to believe that racism is coming to an end because of our first black president. Not only is it not going away, it's going to resurface in a VERY ugly way. It's absurd to believe that the Republicans and Conservatives, won't be coming back. Any POSITIVE change that Obama makes, will undoubtedly be short lived.

And it's absurd to think that any continuation of the Bush Administrations policy should go un-condemned just because it's being carried out by our new face of "Change".

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Brotherjim Jonesford on...

The American Health Care System

I personally know what it is like to have health insurance and then suddenly have no health insurance. Talk about being left high and dry. When I was growing up I was on my parents health insurance. Both of my parents had Union jobs. As I write this I am thinking about the excruitaing pain I am experincing in my feet. Of which I can do nothing about. Even if I were to seek medical attention through the Emergency room they would bill $2,000 dollars.

Did I fail to mention I have a college degree and have been looking for work for over a year now? I was hoping after the 5 years I spent at the Univeristy that I would be worth something in the work force. Application after Application I am turned away. I was hoping to have health insurance by now. But hoping in an unfair system will never get me anywhere. I have experinced the evils of captialism on a first hand account.

You know the people who dont complain about this type of system are thoese who are rich or were born with a silver spoon in there mouth. They've no idea what it is to experince gut renching hungry. Or how to deal with sickness without medical insurance and without being able to see a Doctor.

I see men who wear crosses on there business jackets who wont lift up one finger to help oppressed men. They've no idea that the God I love is also the God of the poor. Who had no place to lay his head because he was homeless. They've no idea everytime they pass by a broken man, a sick man the lonely man in prision. That what ever they have done to them they also have done to Jesus.

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Millions Worldwide Celebrate Obama/Biden Victory, Defeat of Bush Legacy

Images from Daily Kos, one of the more interesting US progressive Democrat blogs



MSNBC Montage of Obama Victory Celebrations...MSNBC is by far the best commercial mass media TV news network, with progressive commentators like Keith Oberman and Rachel Maddow.

CSPAN Coverage of Obama Victory Speech...CSPAN provides by far the best non-commercial US TV coverage of pubic affairs.

Victory Over Fascism

By SLLU member Ernest Newman

I'll admit it, I cried in joy, and in fear, and mourning our losses over the years.

So many brothers and sisters are not with us here now to celebrate this great, if mostly symbolic victory, and to help us to push the struggle forward, over the top.

But a new generation is stepping forward, and the struggle continues...

All over the US (and around the world), millions of people poured into the streets, dancing and shouting, cheering and sobbing with joy, and praying to "God" that the right wing reactionary conservative fundamentalist swine don't kill him.

Obama by a landslide! The People have spoken! All Power to the People!

Is it Utopia yet? NOT.

Democrats failed, just barely, to seize sufficient plurality in the Congress to block Republican filibusters. The right will still be able to tie every issue into knots with endless debate and bitter oppositionalism, in determined efforts to sabotage everything Obama tries to accomplish.

And even that much-needed Democratic super-majority in the Congress, which we can still hope to achieve with the next election cycle, will not solve all the problems of a corrupt, commercial bourgeois "electoral process".

There are still far too many "Blue Dogs" in the party, and many more have joined it's ranks, from the vacillating, opportunist "undecided" and "swing voters" who went to Obama only at the last minute, just to be on the winning side.

But the Democrat's plurality in Congress has been substantially increased, such that they will have a lot more clout, and will only have to bring over a few Republicans to be able to block a filibuster, or ram through the legislation they want.

The situation remains far from perfect. But it is much "better", relatively speaking, than the nightmare of a McCain, or, as "God" has forbidden, a Palin Presidency, and the Republican controlled Congress of just a few years ago.

Where will we go from here? If the bastards don't kill him, and/or force a civil war on us, Obama will most likely inject some level headed calm and dignity into dealing with domestic and international issues.

Biden will be a good back up, if the worst happens, and an asset to Obama.

We can expect a surge of diplomacy and gestures of reconciliation, on all fronts.

Hopefully Obama will be able to initiate more than mere gestures, and bring some real substance to a role that has been so notably lacking in that, except in the negative, for so long.

An historic, massive popular democratic mandate has just been expressed, in the most material way possible at this time, under our present circumstances and conditions. That's what really matters.

A huge surge in the youth vote, breaking all records, is a good indication for the future, in their decisive rejection of the dogmatic, doctrinaire cynicism and defeatism of the sectarian "left", including the "anarchists", who have so loudly and consistently tended to call for electoral boycott, "on principle".

This was not a vote for the profound flaws of a corrupt, commercial, bourgeois "electoral" process, but a conscious vote against those flaws.

It was not a vote even for the Democrats, or Obama/Biden so much as a vote against Bush/Chaney, McCain/Palin, and all of their supporters at Faux News, hate radio, local "letters to the editor" pages, ranting right wing preachers and other bitter, vicious wing-nuts, fascists, racists, sexists, eco-rapers, corporate rip offs and imperialist war mongers who have become so absolutely "politically incorrect" in this country.

The best anyone can hope for is that the overt, explicit, vicious counter-revolutionary Republican program will be blocked, blunted, and somewhat suppressed, to give us some breathing room to continue the revolutionary struggle.

But the conditions for that struggle just got somewhat better.

Nevertheless, as good as it is to hold out some hope for improvement, and for the future, people should not get their hopes up too high.

As Obama pointed out in his victory speech, and at his first press conference, which was even more obviously aimed at dampening expectations, it's going to take awhile for him, the Democrats, and people all over the world, to correct 8 years of Bush policy.

The Republicans have looted the treasury and thoroughly sabotaged the economy on their way out the door, and that is not going to be overcome overnight. And Bush still has nearly 3 months to inject whatever poison pills that he can, to sour the Democrats' victory.

Give us a year, or two, and we'll see what he can do. It's not good enough, I know. But it's the best he can promise at the moment. At least we can hold out some hope.

Meanwhile, the whole world is watching, and Obama and the US people need and deeply appreciate your solidarity, where it's due, as well as your principled criticism.

We'll need to hold Obama and the Democrats fully accountable, every step of the way, and maintain that pressure, relentlessly, just like we have have had to do against wrong-headed policies of previous Democratic administrations.

Obama, after all, is just another bourgeois liberal Democrat, even is he is black, heh. And going into it, he has been wrong, wrong, wrong, on many issues. There will be plenty to criticize.

This is not a time for complacency, or naive expectations. But it is a time for hope, and to redouble our efforts for justice and peace, to save the planet.

It costs little or nothing to tactically cast a vote that will effectively block the worst fascist swine from power (and I don't mean a wasted vote for some 3rd, 4th, or 5th party guaranteed loser and splitter, which serves only the interests of the fascists), or even to put some energy into "supporting" broader mass tactical participation in the bourgeois electoral arena, especially if that is done in a principled manner, pointing out the inherent flaws of that "process"

The fact is, the detriments of those flaws can be overcome in only one way, and that is through truly massive popular democratic participation aimed at breaking through, toward eventually eliminating those flaws, such as what has just happened, with this election.

That is the primary, and perhaps the only real genius, or flaw, as it were, LOL, of the "American" system.

The US "founding fathers" hated and feared only one thing more than the monarchy and nobility, and that was the concept of universal suffrage. Their polemics of the day stated repeatedly that they believed actual mass democracy would be a disaster, leading only to "chaos, and anarchy", lol.

That is to say, a loss of control by the the small elite of rich, white, Protestant male land owners who wrote the founding documents.

All of the "checks and balances" of the system they set up were intended merely to ensure that power struggles between various factions of that elite would not result in the kind of consolidation of power that could lead to formation of a new monarchy and nobility on the models of the past.

It was never about the popular democratic mandate, really, but totally about reserving power to a strictly enforced coalition of elites, to rule on an "equal footing" with each other (certainly not on an equal footing with the rest of us).

However, they also theorized that some day, maybe, people would be ready and able to handle real democracy, through universal access to education, and other very futuristic ideas.

Jefferson, for example, actually stated that he thought black people, if raised from childhood with all of the advantages of whites, in terms of education, living conditions and moral and social support, could, theoretically, be just as intelligent, capable and "human" as any white person. But, as he saw it, "of course" that was not yet feasible, in his time.

Reprehensible as it may be, that he was a slave holder, the fact is that he was, relatively speaking, for his time, a true revolutionary, because such views as he held were not at all widely accepted, but more likely to get even a white man killed.

The "founding fathers" left a back door open, for potential eventual future exploitation by the masses, if and when "they" were ever ready and able to develop and express the unity of will to use it.

And rhetoric and theory have a propensity to develop legs of their own. The rhetoric of "one person, one vote" has indeed come to be extrapolated in the public mind from that small bourgeois elite, to mean the entire population.

Everyone knows it's not really like that, yet, but the vast majority of us want it to be so, and the pressure is growing, to make it so.

This is not going to be easy, but it can, and must be done, if we are to see truly revolutionary change in the US, or anywhere.

By all means, continue to build exemplary alternative social and economic models for what you want our lives to be like, and for group and community communication and decision making, as well as individual choice. By all means, ardently criticize and resist injustice, privately, and publicly. By all means, do continue to make revolution.

But get real. The "American" people have spoken, and to dis or resist that popular democratic will is not a viable revolutionary strategy.

Indeed, the right will find that out, if they continue to call for "revolutionary" (counter-revolutionary) civil war "against the government and the left". We will crush them, if they raise their ugly heads again like they did most recently under Carter and Clinton. This is not the 1960's, the 70's, or even the 80's and 90's. That was then, and this is now.

Most likely, as irrational as they tend to be, Aryan Nations, et al, will recognize that cold reality, and it will serve as a deterrent, at least for a time. They may hold back, initially, and wait for things to calm down, and for the full effects of Republican sabotage to take hold and to demoralize and destabilize things more.

Either way, ultimately, those who join with such traitors, in unprincipled alliance against the popular democratic will, will be crushed, regardless of their "motivaton". It won't be about being mean to anyone, grinding their face in the dirt, or getting revenge.

But we have urgent priorities that must be addressed, for justice and peace, to save the planet. The counter-revolution must be suppressed, for us to move forward.

Don't get suckered into letting yourself be identified with the wrong side, comrades!

At best, you will be disregarded or held in contempt. At worst, you may find yourself lumped in with the fascists, whether you yourself recognize that, or want it to be so, or even whether it may necessarily be technically, theoretically "accurate" or "fair".

There is little tolerance anymore in the US for "violence" and "terrorism" of any stripe, and it would be best to remember that. We've been there, and done that, and we've rejected that, as a tactical or strategic method.

Only the cops, their dupes, and the right are advocating violent "revolutionary" civil war in this country, at this time.

Beware those in your own ranks who put forward rhetoric and tactics that ultimately serve only the interests of the enemy.

Those who advocated boycott of the electoral process here have also just delineated themselves to be on the wrong side, in this popular democratic mandate against right wing extremism, whether that was their intention or desire, or not.

This is not about "tailing" the masses, but about accepting the leadership of the people, and supporting their legitimate demands for change.

On November 4th, things did change, not only on the surface, but also in the hearts and minds of the "American" peoples.

We will not be denied.

All Power to the People!

Democracy is the most fundamental revolutionary concept.

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On the Eve of the US Elections: Something's Happening Here...(there's a man with a gun over there)

A view from US citizen and SLLU member, Ernest Newman

Vote or Fight  

(it might take both)

Zapatista agitprop, circa 1996

In the US right now, the revolution is at hand. 

On the eve of national elections, the US is poised to surge forward ...or to be dragged down into civil war. 

Maybe both.

As pathetically inadequate as the bourgeois liberal Democrats may be, the right is totally freaking out over the very likely prospect that "socialist" Democrats will not only seize the Presidency, but also a super-majority, or very close to it, in the Congress.

It's one thing, for "the most liberal Senator", a Black man, to win the Presidency. 

But a Democratic super-majority in the Congress will be able to cut off at the knees Republican oppositionalism and "filibusters" (endless speeches, to block motion on legislative measures).

The Democrats have failed, in so many respects, to deliver even a "progressive" program, despite having a present majority in the Congress....but that's because they only hold a simple majority. 

They have not had sufficient plurality to block filibusters, which would be required to proceed with impeachment of Bush and his cronies, end the war in Iraq, or to force through really comprehensive programs for health, environment, economy, foreign policy, etc.

The counter-revolution is not going to just accept a change in this situation. They can be expected to fight to the death, literally as well as metaphorically.  There is nothing more determined and desperate than someone who has held the power in their fervid grasp, and now finds it being wrested away.

After 8 years of keeping a relatively low profile, the brown shirt militias are already starting to come out of the woodwork again, just like they did under Carter and Clinton, only this time with a much more desperate tone.  There have already been several bloody incidents in the past few months, by supposed "lone nuts" and a few seemingly incompetent "wannabes". But their major organizations have been organizing fervently underground, and have been enlisting in the military to get training and access to rip off weapons and ammo, for years.

And the closer the Democrats come to total victory, the more hysterical and draconian the rhetoric of "hate radio", the "freeper" blogs, Faux News, and fringe elements of the Republican Party seem to get, more and more often explicitly calling for, or insinuating the "need" for drastic actions they themselves wouldn't dare to personally take.

It could get very ugly.

It is a conceivable possibility that the Democrats may be forced to declare martial law...not to put down a leftist rebellion, lol, but to suppress a right wing reactionary conservative fascist civil war "against the government and the left".  I say bring in the black helicopters, and UN troops, if necessary, to eradicate the traitors, once and for all...but nobody listens to me, heh.

Hopefully, it won't be all that bad...maybe the right will finally recognize that their goose is cooked, and that they are going to have to learn to "love it, or leave it".  I hope the door hits them in the ass on their way out, either way, heh.

Meanwhile, another struggle is underway, within the Democratic Party, at all levels, and especially on the local, grassroots level.

Beyond the issue of the sheer number of Democrats in Congress being insufficient to overcome Republican treason and sabotage on every issue, there is the issue of the "Blue Dogs" (conservative Democrats) who presently predominate in key positions of power within the Democratic party.  

Due to the extremely low voter turnout so prevalent in the US, and, I would say, soley due to this factor, progressive Democrats have long been outnumbered and isolated within their own party, and unable to prevail upon the Blue Dogs to mount more resolute opposition to the Republicans.

While that situation cannot be expected to completely change with this election cycle, momentum is building, to drive these vascilating weasels from the Democratic Party, over the next several cycles.

At all levels, there is a concerted campaign underway, to purge the Blue Dogs and seize the power, by the more progressive elements.  While this is being kept somewhat tamped down, presently, leading up to the elections, full scale assault on the power of the Blue Dogs can be expected to ensue immediately after the elections are over, especially on the local levels.

From local city councils and county boards of supervisors, all the way up the ladders of power, a vigorous mass movement is not only underway to establish Democratic super-majorities, to suppress the Republicans, and remove them from all levers of power, but also to challenge the Blue Dogs to either move to the left, or be replaced by more progressive candidates.

To those purist, dogmatic, doctrinaire, absolutist idealists who would dismiss such "struggle" as mere co-optation and surrender to an inherently corrupt and counter-revolutionary bourgeois capitalist system, there may be little that can be said, to convince that any of this really means anything.

Those who say, and actually think, that there is "no difference" between the two parties in the US, are not, in my experience, particularly susceptible to reason or convincing to the contrary.

I can only say that millions of people all over the world, and here in the US, are soon going to find that there are significant and substantial differences, especially where day to day survival hangs in the balance.

Will the differences be "enough"?  Of course not.  The struggle will continue.  

The Republicans, on their way out of power, are doing everything they can to loot the treasury and sabotage the economy while they still can, to make it as difficult as possible for the new administration to even keep it's head above water.  Last minute efforts to reverse environmental protections, lock us into long term commitments to war in the Middle East, and other such measures, are underway in the last days of the Bush administration..

It may take Obama's entire first term, if he survives, just to recover somewhat from the extensive damage that has been done.  One glimmer of hope is that Biden, his Vice Presidential running mate, has promised that there will be investigations, prosecution, and punishment for the many treasons of the Republicans.  We'll see about that...

Nobody with a brain can expect the Democrats to deliver a genuinely revolutionary program. But the fact remains that many millions of lives will be at least somewhat improved under a "Democratic" regime...which in itself will be at least somewhat "better", relatively speaking, than continuous pokes in the eye with a sharp stick, from the much more fascistic Republicans. 

But beyond that, there is the historic fact, that the better conditions get, the more persistent the demands of the people get, for real, actual justice. Once they get their noses open for what it might be like, to be out from under the threat of premature death and grinding poverty, people tend to move forward and demand an actual life of dignity and fulfillment, rather than to just "go to sleep" and think "everything is all better now".

And this is in stark contrast to the effect of right wing assaults against justice and survival, dignity and fulfillment, which, in fact, tend to demoralize and grind down opposition, and to crush it brutally, when it dares to rise up and express itself.

Ah, and you might well say, thus the right and "the left" trade off the power, every so often, to keep the people confused, and perpetuate the illusion of "progress".

And you won't be absolutely wrong, in that regard, heh, any more than you are "wrong" to point out all the many shortcomings and betrayals of liberal bourgeois politicians, in terms of delivering a genuinely revolutionary program.

But the only absolute in life, and especially in politics, is that there are no absolutes, except, perhaps, death.

The absolutist idealism that refuses to vote for bourgeois liberals, even tactically, to block the worst available fascists from power..."on principle", no less...should really examine in their heart of hearts the real question: what fkn good are your "principles", if millions more people have to die, as a direct result of your refusal to "support" less than ideal candidates?

Have you ever wondered why those masses are not flocking to your "movement" in greater numbers?  

If you actually have such contempt for their suffering, that you would think it's a "good thing" for them to suffer more, under a rightist regime, because that might prod them into joining your "movement", lol...then why the hell should they trust you, or accept your jive ass "leadership", LOL?

Eventually true revolutionaries must recognize that merely symbolic, futile gestures of protest and defiance are ultimately...futile.  We must seize the power.  History, and the people, demand material results

I remain convinced that a very major portion of counter-revolutionary strategy has long been to infiltrate and manipulate left groups, for the express purpose of injecting as much anti-electoral rhetoric and sentiment as possible into those ranks.  

Oh sure, they also try to just generally spy, disrupt, discredit, and provoke illegal actions, to embarrass and get people arrested, for sure...But if they can convince you to tell others not to vote, or to split the vote with guaranteed losers from "alternative" parties, then they really have it made, because their own right wing fascist candidates will then prevail, by default.

That is, in fact, the only way a Hitler, Nixon, Reagan, Bush...or Sarkovy, or Greek fascists, etc. rise to power.

Indeed, thats the only way they can "win", is by suppressing popular democratic engagement in the electoral process, since the vast majority of the actual people tend to support progressive rhetoric and programs.

For those of you, who may harbor some understandable cynicism about where the peoples of the US are really at, I'd like to offer again the excellent reference below, which is well worth the time to read and study.  It's kind of long, but it's very well written, and chock full of hard data. 

The writer is not just some partisan party hack or axe grinding "pundit", but provides an in-depth scholarly analysis of US public opinion polls over the last 30 years or so.

The important thing to remember in considering this document, is that the results he reports are IN SPITE OF everything the commercial bourgeois media and various other socio-economic manipulations that the counter-revolution have brought to bear, in trying to reverse the trends.  Imagine the results if Faux News, et al were brought to revolutionary justice, for their lies and slanders!

My conclusion? We won the revolution in the 60's and 70's, and in the long hard struggle since, to take it to the masses.  We consciously, deliberately stood down from the ridiculous "revolutionary" posturing and armed struggle rhetoric.  We took it to the people, and worked hard, for many years, on a personal, one to one, and an organizational basis, to build the genuine grassroots base of participation and support that revolution requires, anywhere.

As much as the enemy has tried to make it look like we lost, and they won, sometimes effectively fooling even many of us into thinking that was the case...as hard as it has been, for us, and for the whole world, the day has finally come.  The final struggle is now at hand.

All that's left now is the mopping up and final suppression of the counter-revoutionary traitors who refuse to submit to the popular democratic will.  It may take awhile, but the final struggle is now underway, and surging throughout our society.  We will not be denied.

Racism, Sexism, Eco-rape, Corporate rip off, and Imperialist wars are no longer "politically correct" in the US, despite what you may have heard from various cynics and liars.

I have been invited to bring a series of polemics to this forum, for general discussion, and will try to accommodate that. Perhaps we can look at the term "American Exceptionalism" next time, and also how some of my analysis, and conditions in the US, may apply (or not, heh) in Europe, for example, and in other parts of the world.

Your comments and discussion, and your own separate polemic posts as well, are most welcome here.

Oh yeah..here's the link...check out this report, before you start telling me how wrong I am, about the level of political consciousness among the "American" peoples, OK?

mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

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Write to your bank...

Click on the flag to read about the disgusting U.S. embargo - and what you can do about it. Well done "The Sunday Herald" - which is scotlands biggest selling Sunday paper - for highlighting this.

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Speech by Chuck Hamilton (US SLLU supporter) - We have nothing to fear but fear itself

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself." -- FDR

Imagine yourself in a packed nightclub with a band and a large but empty dance floor. You’re sitting at a table with your friends. No one’s dancing. Suddenly you’re on a barstool in the middle of the otherwise empty dance floor. You’re painfully aware of everyone staring at your back. You realize you’re now stark naked. I’ll bet y’all just felt a chill run down your spine. That’s what it feels like when you’re under hostile surveillance.
Now open your eyes and remember that feeling.
I’m here to talk to you today about the spirit of fear that has pervaded our society for the past several years. First, I’m going to address the events of 9/11 and the so-called "war on terror". Second, I’m going to try to give you some insight into the atmosphere present here, and across the world, during the time I was first in college at UTC. Third, I’m going to relate some of my own personal experiences with terrorism when I was with the Navy in the Philippines. Finally, I’m going to attempt to put all these things into a perspective that will help make you less afraid and give you hope.
Now, let’s look again at events with which I know all of you are somewhat familiar, and how they have affected our nation’s culture.
According his March 25 article last year for the Washington Post entitled "Terrorized by ‘War on Terror’, Zbigniew Brzezinski states that "the ‘war on terror’ has created a culture of fear in America."
When the first hijacked place slammed into the North Tower of the WTC, I had just logged on to the Internet after dropping my son off at school. Shortly thereafter, I received a phone call from a friend of mine telling me to "turn on your TV; America is under attack." I did so, and as I stood watching horrified, the second plane slammed into the South Tower. After attempting to contact my friends in NYC over the net to check on them and not succeeding because the whole web was clogged, I returned to the living room just in time to see the South Tower collapse and the North Tower a half hour later. For the next two weeks, I got maybe two or three hours of sleep a night as I watched various news channels which were all covering the scene at the WTC nearly 24 hours a day.
The attacks on the WTC and on the Pentagon were both the worst terrorist incident in American history, and the worst attack by a foreign entity on American soil in our history, and afterwards, Americans were terrified by al-Qaida. However, every other terrorist attack on American soil has been carried out by our own people, exclusively by right-wing extremists the past several years.
The Unabomber, who sent letter bombs to judges and other government officials from the 1970’s to the ‘90’s, was an American.
The Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 was carried out by Americans.
The abortion clinic bombings in the late 1990’s and the early 2000’s, as well as the bombing of the Atlanta Olympics in 1996, were carried out by Americans.
The spate of arson attacks on African-American churches throughout the South in the 1990’s were carried out by Americans.
The anthrax attacks that began the week after 9/11 were almost certainly carried out by an American, according to the FBI.
The main perpetrator of the Beltway Sniper attacks that took place in the Washington DC area in October 2002 was an American.
Like comedian Chris Rock said durng his act on his latest tour after citing many of these incidents, "I ain’t afraid of al-Qaida; I’m afraid of Al Cracker!".
According to Brzezinski again, "the culture of fear is like a genie that has been let out of its bottle."
The Halloween night following 9/11, the streets usually filled with happy, eager kids seeking candy were virtually deserted, and my son David was so disappointed he asked to be taken home after only an hour.
In the days and weeks immediately following those events, there were numerous attacks against Muslim Americans, some fatal, including one Sikh man mistaken for being a Muslim.
Our fear has led us to commit or allow in our name atrocities that would previously been unthinkable. The warrantless wiretapping of American citizens was a practice stringently forbidden under any circumstances when I was in the Naval Security Group.
We have held and are holding criminal suspects without bail, without charge, without access to an attorney, and without being allowed any means of challenging their detention. We have not only tortured prisoners, but have allowed information obtained under torture to be used against the few in court who have so far been tried.
The constant drumbeat of warnings about various vague possibilites of terrorist attacks have eroded our sense of self-confidence, our capacity for happiness, and our ability see the rest of the world as anything but a potential enemy.
All we had to worry about the first time I was in college, at UTC in the early 1980’s, was achieving peace through mutual annhilation via nuclear holocaust.
In the early 1980’s, just before another surge in the arms race began, the United States and the Soviet Union had roughly 20,000 nuclear warheads aimed at each other. According to some of the anti-nuke literature of the period, each nation had the capacity to destroy the entire planet and all life on it 30 to 40 times over, though after the first five or ten times, does it make a difference?
According to Soviet sociologists Stanislav Roshchin and Tatiana Kabachenko, after citing results of similar studies done by American scientists in their own country, stated that the results of their own studies showed that the number one fear of young people ages 12-22 was dying in a nuclear war, or surviving one alone.
In the waning years of Leonid Brezhnev’s rule over the USSR and the installation of a new administration in the White House, tensions between the two countries began to rise significantly. The United States announced that it was planning to find a way to ensure the survival of the United States after a nuclear war, making a nuclear war winnable. The United States furthermore announced that it was initiating the placement of nuclear-tipped missles on Continental Europe, within easy striking distance of the USSR. The Soviet Union announced development of a new line of nuclear weapons offensive capability. The United States began attempting to develop the capability to strike down incoming ICBM’s with ground-launched missiles, which was in violation of the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty of 1972.
Thus began a period of heightened tensions and escalation in the production and development of nuclear arms that spread a pall of fear across both Europe and North America. Every day we, the people of the USA, the USSR, and Europe, lived in fear that the next incident, the next misunderstanding, between the two superpowers would lead to the launching of missiles by one side or the other which would result in a counter-action by the side targetted.
If that happened, both sides would have launched their enitre stockpiles of ICBM’s and SLBM’s in order that they not be destroyed by those of the opposing side. Given the average time it would have taken all those missles would have reached their targets, World War III would have lasted about 45 minutes. After such a war, according to former Soviet Premier Nikita Khruschev, the survivors would envy the dead, not that they would be living much longer.
The mood of many people, the ones who were aware of the danger, is best summed up in the lyrics of a song by a German pop group called Nena, first released in German in 1983 and in English in 1984, called "99 Redballoons".
At the beginning of the song, Nena and a friend buy a bag of 99 red balloons, fill them up with helium and release them into the sky. A bug in someone’s early warning system signals that an attack is underway, planes and missles are launched, and at the end of the song, she sings,

"It's all over and I'm standing pretty.
In this dust that was a city.
If I could find a souvenier.
Just to prove the world was here.
And here is a red balloon
I think of you and let it go."

The small hope that this would not happen, and that sanity would prevail, is summed up in the lyrics of the song "Russians" by the artist Sting, at the end of which he sings,

"We share the same biology

Regardless of ideology

What might save us, me and you

Is that the Russians love their children too."

Not long after I arrived at Clark Air Base in December 1987 when I was with the Navy, I learned from one of my shipmates, who had been there at the time, that in September 1982, when the Sixth Fleet was in the Eastern Mediterranean in support of the Marines in Lebanon, our forces there went to DefCon 2 along with those in Europe and in NORAD, a greater number of forces than were at that level during the Cuban Missile Crisis. World War III had almost happened.
Now that we have me at Clark, which was in Pampanga in the Philippines, I can tell you about some of my personal experiences with terrorism.
Five weeks before I arrived, in October, four men were assassinated by sparrow squads of the insurgent New People’s Army. Three of them were active duty American servicemen. The fourth was a Filipino retired from the US Air Force. A fifth man targetted escaped. American personnel were restricted to base for two weeks. Afterwards, the hours they were permitted to be off and on the streets were limited.
Five months after I arrived, a war began in Angeles City outside the base between gunmen of the NPA and right-wing paramilitaries. This lasted for more than two months. There was a least one death, more often two or three, on either or both sides. It only ended after women from both sides marched together down the main street of the city barefoot to call for an end to it. In spite of almost daily warnings about potential terrorist activitiy against US personnel, reports failed to note this conflict until three weeks after it had ended.
In April 1989, an acquaintance of mine from Defense Language Institute whom I greatly admired, Lt. Col. Nick Rowe of the Joint U.S. Military Assistance Group, Philippines, was assassinated by NPA chief Rolly Kintanar on his way to his headquarters one morning.
In September 1989, US personnel at Clark were once again targetted for assassination. The selected target was a busload of Navy personnel who travelled daily to their worksite at Capas Naval Station several miles north of the base
The driver of the bus was my future father-in-law, who, remembering warnings over the past few days of imminent action foiled the hit squad’s plans when he noticed the roadblock and became suspicious, turning the bus around and carrying my friends back to Capas. Two civilians engineers from Ford Aerospace who were friends of another civilian friend of mine drove into the ambush and had their car riddled by over three hundred rounds of automatic weapons fire. A couple of weeks later, I learned that the leader of the hit team had gone to high school with my future brother-in-law.
Now, remember that feeling I told you about at the beginning.
A few months after leaving the Navy and going to work for the US Refugee Program based out of Manila, I returned to Clark, as I did every weekend to visit my fiancee.
It was two weeks before our wedding, and we were walking down the road outside the base’s perimeter when I felt that feeling again. I looked back and looked ahead, and though I saw nothing obvious, I darted across the road between two oncoming vehicles. Sensing danger had passed, I returned across the street and we continued to her work, a nightclub called Cheers, and I went upstairs to the terrace where my friends from the club were sitting with a palpable tension in the air.
They were discussing an alert that had been issued that day about potential assassination attempts that weekend, with five persons reportedly being targetted.
I then realized what had just happened, that I had been about ten or fifteen seconds from walking into an ambush like those of October 1987 (something which I was later able to confirm), but told them not to worry about it, that nothing was going to happen to them.
Nothing indeed did happen to any of the five of us originally targetted, mainly because the guy in charge of the NPA’s operation was captured later that Friday evening, but an hour after I caught the bus back to Manila, a sparrow squad shot down two Air Force officers at Clark on temporary duty from Japan outside their hotel two hundred yards from the bus stop.
Now that we’ve discussed that I’ve experienced terrorism, living in an atmosphere of fear and paranoia, as well as witnessed the events which brought about the current atmosphere in the country, we can end by discussing how to deal with fear so that it doesn’t rule your life.
One of the first ways to prevent fear from taking control of your life is to fight back.
As I mentioned previously, Halloween night 2001, rather than hide in my house alone and afraid with my son, I took him out trick-or-treating in defiance of the fear so many of us felt.
During the ‘80’s, I joined a group called Beyond War that was set up to build a movement that would lead to the end of nuclear arms, or at build bridges between people of the Soviet Union and the United States at the grassroots level.
On the evening of the day the two Ford Aerospace employees were assassinated, I had plans with several of the girls who worked at Cheers to go downtown to the barbeque stands along the railroad tracks, and while we changed plans to an indoor restaurant, several miles from base, I did go out that night as planned. Lest you think I was being brave, I have to tell you I was so nervous I ad to go into the bathroom and stick my fingers down my throat before I could eat or drink anything.
In response to a artistic photograph in the album of a friend on myspace entitled "Why Am I Scared?", I wrote, "Why am I scared? I’m scared because I’m alive. The trick is to not to not do things because you’re afraid, but instead to do those things specifically because we ARE afraid. If we ever stop being scared, then we’re dead, and if we are still moving around it’s only because we don’t know it yet, animated bodies walking around in a permanent vegetative state of mere existence, souls outlined in chalk."

In closing, I’d like to paraphrase a line from the movie "Braveheart": Everyone dies, but not everyone really lives. Go out and be one of the ones who lives.

Chuck Hamilton, aka nattybumpo

http://www.myspace.com/natty4bumpo

http://360.yahoo.com/natty4bumpo

Gaza Strip = Warsaw Ghetto

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