Wednesday, 25 May 2011

Puerta del sol - The Spanish Rebellion - can western capitalism survive the austerity measures forced on working class people?

Present: Plot Tracer; Sophiekittycat Resident; Josiane Llewellyn; Elle Finistair; Eon Republic; Celia Bedrosian; Chelsea Louloudi; Shiaida Palianta; Benevolent String; Kate Miranda; Ernest Genesis; Ilsa Hesse; Frederica Lexenstar; Jennys Willful

Discussion the Red Star Bar. 7ampdt 24th May

Working class Spaniards are NOT taking the bankers bailouts with a whimper - they are occupying the streets! Come to the Red Star Bar to discuss their cry, "We are not merchandise in the hands of Politicians and Bankers!"

[2011/05/24 07:03] Plot Tracer: shall we start the meeting?
[2011/05/24 07:04] Plot Tracer: ok -before we start - RAWAFUNDIE Resient, here, is the funds avatar for the fundraiser we are doing on June 18th. There is a donations prim at the front of the bar or u can give directly to him. L$250 helps educaste a child for a month in Afghanistan- which puts buying pixel shoes into perspective :) so if u can afford anything at all, give it to him or the donations prim at the front of the bar near to the dance floor

[2011/05/24 07:08] Celia Bedrosian: What's the ambition of the people there in Spain?
[2011/05/24 07:09] Plot Tracer: The spanish rebellian is part of the continuing real western rebellion against austerity measures.

[2011/05/24 07:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: ambition is that real economy and workers dont have to always pay when market crash but never have benefits when market rise

[2011/05/24 07:10] Celia Bedrosian: the media where i live present it as a massive right wing movement
[2011/05/24 07:12] Sophiekittycat Resident: what spanish people do is a lesson for us, in europe most our strikes are corporatistes, workers claim for same industrues rights and whine on other workers benefits , no spanish give a true lesson of solidarity

[2011/05/24 07:12] Plot Tracer: yes sophie - the bankers and the markets as they stand caused the crisis, but the debt rather than the profits, from this system seem to be socialised

[2011/05/24 07:12] Kate Miranda: I am interested in Celia's question about truth and media. I was very involved in the Ontario Canada city-wide shutdowns in protest against mid-90's social program cuts by a right-wing government and the media definitely distorted our messages

[2011/05/24 07:12] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/05/24 07:13] Plot Tracer: a friend of mine - he is 87 - tells me about returning from ww2 and then the UK votiong for a socialist programme. the biggest mistake made, he says, is that the newspapers remained in the hands of the rich (Lord Rothermere etc)

[2011/05/24 07:14] Plot Tracer: how are the media reporting the spanish rebellion in the USA?
[2011/05/24 07:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: what makes me sad is that this spanish movement stay just spanish, where is our solidarity ?

[2011/05/24 07:15] Benevolent String: hardly gets any coverage at all
[2011/05/24 07:15] Celia Bedrosian: it'll happen anywhere
[2011/05/24 07:15] Plot Tracer: I know that here in the UK our media are more interested in the sexual foibles of footballers; the royals and their visits and Obama drinking guiness yesterday. no mention on rolling news about spain at all.

[2011/05/24 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: in france we dont hear so much about but i know that le monde newspaper write very well about them, saying they give to us french a true lesson in what should be a movement , the solidarity between workers ibn a common movement
[2011/05/24 07:16] Plot Tracer: yes sophia - i think it is important tht people reaslise in the economically globalised world, were capitali and capitalists are golbalised, the workers, poor and middle classes need to become globalised as well.
[2011/05/24 07:17] Celia Bedrosian: or the opposite
[2011/05/24 07:17] Sophiekittycat Resident: unglobalised ? it would make split us come back to nationalism
[2011/05/24 07:18] Chelsea Louloudi: unfortunately for workers, globalised means cheaper labour

[2011/05/24 07:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: nah we need to unite not to return to small regions and corporatisms
[2011/05/24 07:18] Plot Tracer: On top of the bailouts governments have been printing money (quantitative easing) and buying bonds from the banks. Where has all the money gone? Well not much has gone into the real economy through loans to individuals, small businesses or corporations. It is in the banks coffers to prop up their ailing businesses or being used for speculation on the financial markets.
[2011/05/24 07:18] Plot Tracer: yes chelsea
[2011/05/24 07:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: even unglobalised it would mean same because globalisation is not the problem, the no rules of the holly economy is the problem
[2011/05/24 07:18] Plot Tracer: globalisation is a one way street - it is a way to increase profits by seeking cheaper labour- labour has difficulty in following work tho- money is free... the world population is not
[2011/05/24 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: when we are lured by globalisation word , they succeed in making us think the ennemies are the foreigners. No we need to unite
[2011/05/24 07:19] Plot Tracer: i disagree sophie
[2011/05/24 07:19] Celia Bedrosian: i disagree as well
[2011/05/24 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: no plot globalisation is a word, capitalism is not globalisation
[2011/05/24 07:19] Plot Tracer: i think that nationalism is making that happen
[2011/05/24 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: globalisation it is earth being small because we can communicate easy and trade easy

[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: nationalism and ecomomic liberal globalisation need each other to survive
[2011/05/24 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: globalisation could be without ultra capitalism
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: well - lets define globalisation
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: as it stands now, globalisation is the freedom of capital to speed around the world
[2011/05/24 07:20] Chelsea Louloudi: think we're way past capitalism now
[2011/05/24 07:20] Plot Tracer: nothing more
[2011/05/24 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: nationalism can survive without liberal economy , facism, stalinism have show it and nationalism existed far before capitalism- we are lured fooled by words
[2011/05/24 07:21] Plot Tracer: globalisation is not about poor workers in malawi being able to sell their labour in the uk etc
[2011/05/24 07:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: marx understood it, proletarians of all countries unite- not the opposite,
[2011/05/24 07:21] Benevolent String: globalization is free movement for capital and increased immobility for people.
[2011/05/24 07:21] Plot Tracer: ok - globalisation has meant that in the uk we are 3 days from starvation- we don’t produce food
[2011/05/24 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: no globalisation is not this, it is capitalism and holy money
[2011/05/24 07:22] Plot Tracer: as it is cheaper to do so in other parts of the world and import
[2011/05/24 07:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: globalisation it is internet, easy trade, it is information on all planet
[2011/05/24 07:22] Celia Bedrosian: that has minuses as well
[2011/05/24 07:22] Plot Tracer: so - nationalsim - and not trading with the rest of the world will mean starvation for the uk

[2011/05/24 07:22] Frederica Lexenstar: we could just say "corporate globalization" and "global labour unity"
[2011/05/24 07:22] Plot Tracer: but sophie - with all respect - that is the definition they are selling u
[2011/05/24 07:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: yep frederika
[2011/05/24 07:23] Kate Miranda: I think there is a way that the term "globalization" is used by captilalists in "free trade" agreements and a different way that it is used by international union movements and human rights activists
[2011/05/24 07:23] Plot Tracer: how free - how globalised are the workers in thailand who are working for 13 hours a day? or in china?
[2011/05/24 07:23] Benevolent String: perhaps Negri and Hardt's notion of multitude would be helpful.
[2011/05/24 07:23] Plot Tracer: how globalised are they?
[2011/05/24 07:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes they sell us it because as we think the ennemy is the poor in malawy or the china worker and we will not be solidar to the poor in malawy or china- frederika is right
[2011/05/24 07:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: we need to use the right words to see the right evil
[2011/05/24 07:23] Plot Tracer: yes Kate

[2011/05/24 07:24] Plot Tracer: explain, Benevolent?

[2011/05/24 07:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: or we fall in same trap than in 1984 of Orwell they build words to show us false ennemy and to hide that they are the ennemies

[2011/05/24 07:24] Plot Tracer: yes frederica
[2011/05/24 07:25] Kate Miranda: When unions stop fighting against jobs going elsewhere and instead join forces with the exploited workers in other countries, they achieve globalized workers rights. That is easier to promote in some unions than others

[2011/05/24 07:25] Plot Tracer: yes kate.

[2011/05/24 07:25] Benevolent String: multitude is from them the agency of resistence to global capital.
[2011/05/24 07:26] Benevolent String: but the concept is not fully worked out in their three volumes on the subject.

[2011/05/24 07:26] Sophiekittycat Resident: true kate and this they dont want they want us to think that china workers are our ennemies, no they are victims as western workers
[2011/05/24 07:26] Benevolent String: at least not that I can understand.
[2011/05/24 07:26] Kate Miranda: Canadian autoworkers have done some good work with Mexican union organization for example, but still on the shop floor, it's a hard sell.

[2011/05/24 07:27] Sophiekittycat Resident: eon take care my horse thinks that you are yummy

[2011/05/24 07:28] Plot Tracer: i agree kate. western capitalism is slowly losing the benefits the workers fought for and gained. i hope the workers in the new industrial centres in the east can learn from our victories and failures. but yes - workers across the world need to somehow unite. i think information sharing is very important. the amount of local activism i have leanred about in sllu over the years has been amazing.. the stuff that never reaches the main stream media. eg the wisconsin uprising was not reported here in the uk... but i got lots of my links through people here.

[2011/05/24 07:28] Benevolent String: at least avatars aren't very caloric.

[2011/05/24 07:31] Benevolent String: One lesson of capitalism -- Fordism -- forgotten by modern capitalists is that they must provide workers with salaries that allow them to buy the products that they themselves produce. Otherwise there is no market for goods.

[2011/05/24 07:31] Sophiekittycat Resident: true benevolent- ford thought i need to pay my workers that they can buy the product
[2011/05/24 07:32] Benevolent String: globalization fools capitalists into thinking that there are ever more newer markets....

[2011/05/24 07:32] Sophiekittycat Resident: now they dont pay workers in poor countries or very low paid but they remove work of western workers and they think that poorer and poorer workers in west will continue by miracle to buy
[2011/05/24 07:32] Plot Tracer: yes benevolent
[2011/05/24 07:32] Sophiekittycat Resident: the system go to crash
[2011/05/24 07:32] Frederica Lexenstar: yes, benevolent, and thats kind of the problem for a global labour movement....some of us have so much higher "standards of living" than others
[2011/05/24 07:32] Plot Tracer: and also fools people into thinking "growth" rather than sustainability is an answer

[2011/05/24 07:33] Benevolent String: yes, plot. too true.
[2011/05/24 07:33] Kate Miranda: But when you look at the cost of living in Mexico's Free Trade zones for example, it is surprisingly high. The wages there are not sufficient to buy the goods produced

[2011/05/24 07:33] Plot Tracer: this is from a friend, "These new banks role was to allow the easy movement of capital around the world to fuel the neo liberal globalisation project. But they act like leeches on the financial system. If you imagine the world’s assets as a massive cake made up trillions of dollars. If you cut that cake into enough slices and resell it round the world all you have to do is brush up the crumbs and you become very rich. In this giant financial cake there are about $ 82 trillion of bonds and $50 trillion of shares in public quoted companies. Each day the currency markets turn over $4 trillion of transactions. If I tell you that 60% of these assets are held by us through our pension and insurance funds then you’ll know whose crumbs the banks are picking up."

[2011/05/24 07:34] Plot Tracer: he is talking about the bigger banks that emerged after globalisation
[2011/05/24 07:34] Benevolent String: I'm afraid that I have to get back to work... Not that my labor contributes much to the world economy..... Bye for now.

[2011/05/24 07:34] Jennys Willful: Hi Kitty... hello everyone
[2011/05/24 07:35] Ilsa Hesse: global labor movements must recognize that A) the cost of living changes from place to place, and that B) the expected style of living does as well. you can not, as a westerner, expect everyone to want, or have your style of living... honestly, we do almost as much damage with our ways of sopping our guilt over our supposedly better class of living as we do with our capitalism and colonialism
[2011/05/24 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: thanks to have come benevolent
[2011/05/24 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: and thanks for what you said
[2011/05/24 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can keep high standard of living, the problem is that the way things are produced is the cheapest the most dammaging for the planet and people. The problem is not high standards of living but how things are produced and once again problem is the need of quick money for the banks without care of future
[2011/05/24 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: silence ? jason or freddy are here ?
[2011/05/24 07:38] Frederica Lexenstar: I'm thinking about standards of living :-P
[2011/05/24 07:38] Plot Tracer: ilsa - if all of the planet was to have the same standard of living as the USA middle class - we would need 7 planets
[2011/05/24 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: not really plot we would need only if we produced in the same way
[2011/05/24 07:39] Plot Tracer: if we were to have the globalised middle class lifestyle of the UK we would need 4
[2011/05/24 07:39] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - and the UK middle class as well :-)

[2011/05/24 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can produce as and more with more expensive ways to do
[2011/05/24 07:39] Plot Tracer: capitalisms growth is not sustainable
[2011/05/24 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: no plot only if we produce with same way to do which waste a lot of things and care nothing
[2011/05/24 07:40] Celia Bedrosian: i totally agree Plot
[2011/05/24 07:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot once again saying this means that it is normal that a group is rich and others poors because else planet could not stand it
[2011/05/24 07:40] Plot Tracer: so china becoming the capitalist giant it is becoming is very dangerous ecologically and economically. but in this current system, we cannot deny the people theres desire for a better life. a new system needs to be forged.
[2011/05/24 07:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is false we can if we change our way to do
[2011/05/24 07:40] Frederica Lexenstar: certainly a lot of what we get suckered into buying in the west doesn't really add anything to our lives,,,and maybe makes them less rich...but a) there is a lot that we have that DOES make our lives more comfortable, and pleasureable, and B) a lot of people in "third world" see our advertising and DO want the consumer goods
[2011/05/24 07:41] Plot Tracer: but fredireca
[2011/05/24 07:41] Plot Tracer: our use of fuel energy is not sustainable

[2011/05/24 07:41] Frederica Lexenstar: I know. I'm just saying
[2011/05/24 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: fuel energy is old way to do
[2011/05/24 07:41] Celia Bedrosian: that is just 1 point, there are dozens more
[2011/05/24 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: hydrogen energy is future
[2011/05/24 07:41] Plot Tracer: and the current luxuries enjoyed by us - the rapid burning of fuel to drive to the shops etc, cannot be sustained. so - a new way needs to be found
[2011/05/24 07:42] Plot Tracer: an economy not based on oil or gas
[2011/05/24 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes an economy no more based on oil is possible
[2011/05/24 07:42] Plot Tracer: and the short termism of bigger profits
[2011/05/24 07:42] Frederica Lexenstar: if you want labour unions to globalize, you are going to have to convince relatively high paid us union workers that a lot of what they think they "need" to survive doesn't make them happy
[2011/05/24 07:42] Ilsa Hesse: ...
[2011/05/24 07:42] Frederica Lexenstar: and a lot of them would disagree
[2011/05/24 07:43] Ilsa Hesse: or convince other countries they need to pay their workers a lot, lot more...
[2011/05/24 07:43] Frederica Lexenstar: which would make western consumers scream
[2011/05/24 07:43] Plot Tracer: or, federica, convince them that without the rest of the world, they cannot survive
[2011/05/24 07:43] Plot Tracer: ilsa
[2011/05/24 07:43] Frederica Lexenstar: I agree plot
[2011/05/24 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is why the problem is the economic system and by who it is nontrolled , controlled by people who not want politic control of economy

[2011/05/24 07:44] Frederica Lexenstar: I'm just thinking about how do we get from where we are to where we need to be
[2011/05/24 07:44] Plot Tracer: the problem is not with "other countries" not paying their workers. it is with the corporations moving to places they can pay workers less
[2011/05/24 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: true plot
[2011/05/24 07:44] Plot Tracer: profit is relient on paying workers less and less otr getting less people to do more for less recompense
[2011/05/24 07:44] Kate Miranda: US unions seem to me to have a very different culture than European and Canadian unions. They are more focused on wages and less active politically and socially, in my experience.
[2011/05/24 07:45] Ilsa Hesse: the flaw with cutting in to the "western style of living" and convincing even the relatively easy sell of the union movement that we should have a more "socially" organized economy is that even the countries with a "socialist" government there are a lot of people calling for more and more change... recognizing that, eventually, someone in the room mentions communism, and then someone says "where has it succeeded..." and no one can give a good example outside of "well, if it were to be put in to effect in Denmark, it would succeed!"
[2011/05/24 07:45] Plot Tracer: Kate - that is where our unions are moving tho. The UK for example, now has some of the most stringent anti union laws in the world
[2011/05/24 07:45] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - tarrif them the differences in wages to sell in your country.
[2011/05/24 07:45] Kate Miranda: I think Wisconsin was a game-changer
[2011/05/24 07:46] Kate Miranda: It was heartening to see the people in Madison. I was there in March
[2011/05/24 07:46] Ilsa Hesse: internationally we should be tarrifing businesses for that anyways... both to protect lost jobs in a localized economy and to raise the standard of living for the lower paid area.
[2011/05/24 07:46] Plot Tracer: well ilsa - the problem with the old communist states was that they were not socialist/communist. they were based on capitalist ecomonies, but much more of a pyramid scam than even capitalism is.

[2011/05/24 07:47] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - take out the one piece of the puzzle that is flawed and communism works great.
[2011/05/24 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: old communist countries never were communists they were dictatures based on stalinism
[2011/05/24 07:47] Celia Bedrosian: i'm not sure we should see it this way
[2011/05/24 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: only Yugoslavia was really socialist
[2011/05/24 07:47] Plot Tracer: the fact is, that places like cuba - or perhaps uniquely cuba - have become sustainable... but because they are islands of socialism in an ocean of capitalism, they canot survive... they need the global economy for certain needs.
[2011/05/24 07:47] Ilsa Hesse: ... Yugoslavia was a dictatorship, just a dictator they liked
[2011/05/24 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: union of resources, union of people this is globalisation, a lot of people in a small planet
[2011/05/24 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: the problem is the monopole of a few on the economy
[2011/05/24 07:49] Plot Tracer: ilsa - i like the idea of contraction and convergence
[2011/05/24 07:49] Kate Miranda: I think to a certain extent the problem is the lack of political sophistication of the working class. They are like the chickens voting for Colonel Saunders.
[2011/05/24 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: lack of education , lack of an education learning self criticism and criticism of teh world
[2011/05/24 07:50] Plot Tracer: and i also prefer the japanese economic model rthe then the over taxing one
[2011/05/24 07:50] Celia Bedrosian: explain education/sophistication
[2011/05/24 07:50] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - How much of Cuba's economic paradise was paid for by the Soviet Union's overdrawn checkbook?
[2011/05/24 07:50] Plot Tracer: but ilsa
[2011/05/24 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: near all ilsa
[2011/05/24 07:51] Ilsa Hesse: Kate- educate the masses, old, but brilliant idea... no one does it anymore
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: Cuba has not been reliant on the soviet union for 20 years and has something the uk or the us has not - it has total food self reliance

[2011/05/24 07:51] Kate Miranda: A lot of workers in the US support libertarian ideas without thinking about the things government funds that they need
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: kate - i agree re taxing - but
[2011/05/24 07:51] Plot Tracer: i also see a huge problem in disparity of income
[2011/05/24 07:52] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - the Marshall plan was great for Europe's economy as well.. how much of Germany and Japan's great leap forward was caused by the U.S. Dollar... Cuba is not a good choice to base your worker's paradise on.
[2011/05/24 07:52] Kate Miranda: Exactly Ilsa. I worked for Canada's NDP for 7 years as a staffer and we were taught that political education was a waste of time
[2011/05/24 07:52] Kate Miranda: Simply stay on "message"
[2011/05/24 07:52] Plot Tracer: if the top earners were not allowed to earn more than a certain amount and the low earners were brought up the way, these disparities and health etc implications would lessen
[2011/05/24 07:53] Kate Miranda: Mobilize supporters, ignore detractors... that was the strategy
[2011/05/24 07:53] Kate Miranda: The idea of a political program was thought to be old school, out of date
[2011/05/24 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: forbiding mad speculation in markets would fix a lot of things
[2011/05/24 07:53] Plot Tracer: i dont think we should all embrace cubas way.. but i do think lessons on sustainability can be learned from Cuba
[2011/05/24 07:53] Celia Bedrosian: agreed
[2011/05/24 07:53] Plot Tracer: and as for the american dollar helping - of course it did. but we are no longer in that situation
[2011/05/24 07:54] Ilsa Hesse: Plot... it is like saying we should base our economy on Israel's model... Israel's economy could support itself now.. but that doesnt mean that durring it's formative years it was anywhere close to being able to work without a boat load of cash poured in from outside...
[2011/05/24 07:54] Plot Tracer: europe has paid its war debt... and america is no longer the biggest economic power. Chinese middle classes are now being sold crap on a bigger scale. And there is a huge problem

[2011/05/24 07:55] Ilsa Hesse: Europe has paid it's war debt?
[2011/05/24 07:55] Celia Bedrosian: is it relevant?
[2011/05/24 07:55] Plot Tracer: israel could not support itself without aid from us and other nations (in the form of ams "aid")
[2011/05/24 07:55] Plot Tracer: yes - europe has paid its war debt.
[2011/05/24 07:55] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, they can now actually
[2011/05/24 07:55] Ilsa Hesse: which war debt?
[2011/05/24 07:55] Plot Tracer: ww2
[2011/05/24 07:55] Frederica Lexenstar: I was in cuba about 15 yrs ago, and visited a co-op farm. The american visitors were all about the organic farming methods they were using, but the jeffe of the farm said "if I had fertilizers and pesticides, I would certainly use them. We have a country to feed.
[2011/05/24 07:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: ilsa to sustain war cost europeans took debts at usa
[2011/05/24 07:56] Plot Tracer: u talked about the rebuilding of the uk and germanys economy after the war
[2011/05/24 07:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: the planet is every sustainaible what is not sustainable is the economic way to produce
[2011/05/24 07:56] Plot Tracer: i was in cuba 2 years ago frederica. some amazing things being done there re food and energy
[2011/05/24 07:56] Celia Bedrosian: that's an important point Frederica
[2011/05/24 07:56] Frederica Lexenstar: maybe some of the changes the activists would like to see will be coming soon, as peak oil reproduces for us what the blockade did for Cuba
[2011/05/24 07:57] Plot Tracer: i agree with that sophi
[2011/05/24 07:57] Ilsa Hesse: the UK paid something like 130 million of it's 31 billion lend/lease debt. they went much farther than anyone else... and that doesnt count the Marshall Plan after the war... of course, the U.S. did not plan on being paid back either of those debts...
[2011/05/24 07:57] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes plot you can do a lot of things under paws of a dictature
[2011/05/24 07:57] Sophiekittycat Resident: i dont want more to be under Cuban system than under ultra capitalism system

[2011/05/24 07:57] Frederica Lexenstar: myself, I'd prefer living under the Cuban system.
[2011/05/24 07:58] Plot Tracer: and tbh - in the current system, the only way to stop capitalism destrying the world, is to keep poor people within their borders, producing the crap we need to make us happy, by closing their borders etc.
[2011/05/24 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: my dream would be a more social and democratic european union like system, one democratic
[2011/05/24 07:58] Frederica Lexenstar: but that is probably because I've tried to survive under US capitalism as a single mom
[2011/05/24 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: then european social system is far better
[2011/05/24 07:59] Plot Tracer: sophie - as far as Cuba is concerned the biggest failure was the blockade by America. the people i mixed with and met (ordinary people) were not afraid to talk about politics etc... they were being kept poor by the blockade tho.
[2011/05/24 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is not only usa as a west reference
[2011/05/24 07:59] Frederica Lexenstar: but, plot, that might also be what made them sustainable
[2011/05/24 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: usa bloacade was a failure and made castro sliding on dictature way, yes castro done great things at beginning but a dictature stay a dictature
[2011/05/24 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, we have discussed this before, we have the right to trade or not trade with whomever we choose.
[2011/05/24 08:00] Shiaida Palianta: 'the right to trade'
[2011/05/24 08:00] Shiaida Palianta: if you look back on that 'right'
[2011/05/24 08:00] Plot Tracer: ilsa - i wont argue that. i think to argue that economically, the world owes all to the US, is dangerous and wrong. The fact is, the US economy /trade is in negative figures - it is relying on the rest of the world more than any other nation does.

[2011/05/24 08:00] Plot Tracer: so the us economy and model is not sustainable
[2011/05/24 08:00] Shiaida Palianta: it was the right to open up markets under gunboat diplomacy
[2011/05/24 08:00] Ilsa Hesse: Shiada, yes, if trade history teaches us anything, it is that the "right to trade" can be taken away
[2011/05/24 08:01] Kate Miranda: to a certain extent Cuba's success has been the result of re-acting to the US embargo. Their pharmaceutical industry was developed because the people needed medicine, as did their leadership in medical training, and their developments in agriculture were reactions to US sneak attacks on crops.
[2011/05/24 08:01] Celia Bedrosian: the decades of rights are past us... we'll have duties to face
[2011/05/24 08:01] Plot Tracer: and in fact brought down the worlds economy via sub prime
[2011/05/24 08:01] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, who said anything about the world owing the US?
[2011/05/24 08:01] Shiaida Palianta: Trade, born from the Industrial Revolution, was never fair
[2011/05/24 08:01] Sophiekittycat Resident: Cuba economy , crashed when ussr abandoned them
[2011/05/24 08:02] Shiaida Palianta: there is no 'right'
[2011/05/24 08:02] Celia Bedrosian: agreed
[2011/05/24 08:02] Shiaida Palianta: there is " I want to do so, and I will force you to do so"
[2011/05/24 08:02] Chelsea Louloudi: and definitely isn't fair now
[2011/05/24 08:02] Shiaida Palianta: "according to my will"
[2011/05/24 08:02] Plot Tracer: yes kate. their medical system is incredible - (and has cures for things that the us are in the process of stealing because they have the embargo and wont trade)
[2011/05/24 08:02] Plot Tracer: as is their education system
[2011/05/24 08:03] Ilsa Hesse: Shiada - the United States Marine Corps' battle hymn has a verse "to the shores of Trippoli" which is all about fighting for the United State's right to free and unhinderd trade
[2011/05/24 08:03] Plot Tracer: but their economy is shot because of the embargo
[2011/05/24 08:03] Plot Tracer: so highly educated people - phds etc, make more money serving tables rather than being particle physisists etc.
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: Ilsa, free and unhindered trade for whom?
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: IT's very one sided

[2011/05/24 08:04] Plot Tracer: but free trade does not mean a fair world - in its current form
[2011/05/24 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we have a choice i hope between usa economy dictature or castro like dictature
[2011/05/24 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is other ways
[2011/05/24 08:04] Kate Miranda: I personally like that they still have little live stages in the corner of workshops where travelling musicians and storytellers entertain for tips.... kind of like SL
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: this 'free trade' nonsense.. was never 'free'
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: it's 'begger they neighbour'
[2011/05/24 08:04] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - who is responsible for the downfall of their economy? The United States for not trading with them, or the Soviet Union for stopping payment on the checks?
[2011/05/24 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: both were
[2011/05/24 08:04] Shiaida Palianta: and worse, it's bullying
[2011/05/24 08:05] Chelsea Louloudi: yes, it's not "free trade"....just check why the WTO talks keep failing
[2011/05/24 08:05] Ilsa Hesse: Shaiaida - the U.S. Navy secures free trade for the United States and it's allies... see the Eastern African coast right now for instance.
[2011/05/24 08:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: Cuba economy crash not come from one thing but by two togethers
[2011/05/24 08:05] Plot Tracer: the US for not allowing other, smaller neighbours from trading with them
[2011/05/24 08:05] Shiaida Palianta: good grief
[2011/05/24 08:05] Plot Tracer: but glad to see the UK breaks the blockade, as does Canada
[2011/05/24 08:05] Kate Miranda: We Canadians do what we can with our tourist dollars
[2011/05/24 08:05] Shiaida Palianta: the US is the begger and the bully of the world, a very dangerous combination, imho
[2011/05/24 08:06] Shiaida Palianta: the beggar will come to extreme means to get what it needs
[2011/05/24 08:06] Ilsa Hesse: Plot? name ONE country that trades with ALL countries, even those they disagree with... ONE...

[2011/05/24 08:06] Celia Bedrosian: the US in particular, but also other parts of the world
[2011/05/24 08:06] Celia Bedrosian: Europe and China are guilty as well
[2011/05/24 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: my god we have fall in the trap of our own nationalisms or uthopies, we will never succeed to do the union of workers
[2011/05/24 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: do you see what we are doing ?
[2011/05/24 08:07] Plot Tracer: the us holds the trade cards, ilsa. the us is the only country that can trade with whomever it wants... (with the exception of perhaps china now)
[2011/05/24 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: we not search to unite we search who is guilty and who is the ennemy
[2011/05/24 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is why we will never succeed in solidarity and union
[2011/05/24 08:07] Celia Bedrosian: we need some self-criticism as well Sophie
[2011/05/24 08:07] Ilsa Hesse: Plot - which country is forced to trade with another?
[2011/05/24 08:07] Plot Tracer: the fact is the geo-position of Cuba makes trade with many nations impossible as its nearest neighbour is the US...
[2011/05/24 08:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: but Celia we not do self criticism now we search only who is the enemy who is the bad one
[2011/05/24 08:08] Celia Bedrosian: well, I'm in the Netherlands and its one of the most rotten countries on earth
[2011/05/24 08:08] Plot Tracer: ok - back to what we were supposed to be discussing :) one of the cries from the ongoing Spanish demonstrations is "We are not merchandise in the hands of Politicians and Bankers!"
[2011/05/24 08:08] Plot Tracer: what do people think of this?
[2011/05/24 08:09] Ilsa Hesse: since the vast majority of countries, "good" or "evil" are allowed at least some control over their right to trade, and trade partners, I think we should give up on the whole "the U.S. is evil because they have dollars and people want to trade for dollars " bullshit

[2011/05/24 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: i love it plot

[2011/05/24 08:10] Plot Tracer: oh - noticing the time... perhaps we could all add one more paragraph and end. (i don’t think anyone said the US was evil - but I think we are all agreed that the US system is problematic, no?)
[2011/05/24 08:10] Chelsea Louloudi: agree
[2011/05/24 08:10] Celia Bedrosian: me too
[2011/05/24 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot it is not only the usa system it is the world economic system
[2011/05/24 08:10] Celia Bedrosian: yes
[2011/05/24 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: i disagree enemies is not usa it is the world economic system
[2011/05/24 08:11] Ilsa Hesse: Plot- I would agree the WESTERN system, as shown by the United States and others to a lesser extent is a problem... I WOULD ALSO say that coming up with half thought out reasons why and how this happens is moronic and causes more problems than good.
[2011/05/24 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: china is now more capitalist than usa
[2011/05/24 08:11] Chelsea Louloudi: who has the biggest finger in the pie of the world economic system?
[2011/05/24 08:11] Plot Tracer: my last paragraph - i welcome the rebellion - hopefully people will question the fact the in most western countries who have suffered the austerity measures, the top paid 2% of their population could pay this debt off tomorrow rather than the way the debt has been socialised amongst the poor and working and middle classes.

[2011/05/24 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: usa have a finger , but china have a foot now in
[2011/05/24 08:11] Ilsa Hesse: well, Chelsea, after 2020, China, so you can start bitching at them after that :-)
[2011/05/24 08:12] Frederica Lexenstar: good point plot!
[2011/05/24 08:12] Celia Bedrosian: its not bitching Ilsa
[2011/05/24 08:12] Ilsa Hesse: well, not very constructive at very least
[2011/05/24 08:12] Chelsea Louloudi: bitching?
[2011/05/24 08:12] Frederica Lexenstar: time to stop privatizing profits and socializing debt
[2011/05/24 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: our lives have more value than their profits :)
[2011/05/24 08:13] Chelsea Louloudi: exactly Frederica
[2011/05/24 08:13] Ilsa Hesse: Sophie, till someone eats "the Man"'s liver to prove that, no, their profits have more value than our lives.
[2011/05/24 08:13] Plot Tracer: and ilsa - what half thought out and moronic reasons? Remember - we speak comradely here - and listen to others comradely. The fact is, ilsa, this space, and these discussions perhaps go back and forward, but i doubt you know the extent of knowledge of others in the hour they are on. But they do give food for thought. I think we all learn here- and we should all recognise we do.
[2011/05/24 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: ilsa i was saying what it should be not what it is and i talk of ethic of moral
[2011/05/24 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes our lives should have more value than their profits
[2011/05/24 08:15] Celia Bedrosian: i agree Sophie
[2011/05/24 08:15] Plot Tracer: ok - please consider giving a few lindens to rawafundie resident for the fundraiser
[2011/05/24 08:15] Ilsa Hesse: Plot.. moronic was no doubt to harsh... I would hate to hurt someone's feelings... uneducated, uninformed, not thought out, not based in reality, take your choice as to which you find least offensive :-)
[2011/05/24 08:15] Plot Tracer: or click on the pink part of the sign behind ilsa to give money (and the pic of the child for info on rawa)

[2011/05/24 08:16] Chelsea Louloudi: Ilsa, you might want to ask people who have had agricultural products from US dumped on their doorstep, if their lives and livelihoods have been improved
[2011/05/24 08:16] Plot Tracer: and ilsa - you obviously have a bigger knowledge of this topic than others.
[2011/05/24 08:17] Ilsa Hesse: Chelsea, when I was in Europe in 2000 I had to explain to my German host family why it was a bad idea to "help" the poor benighted savatges in Africa by sending them their old clothes....
[2011/05/24 08:17] Chelsea Louloudi: good grief
[2011/05/24 08:17] Kate Miranda: Sometimes good intentions do harm
[2011/05/24 08:17] Ilsa Hesse: most definatly Kate
[2011/05/24 08:18] Plot Tracer: I think people really should think about this. I disagree that it is harmful to share - in fact at times re-import stuff - to poorer nations that are caught up in the industrialisation forced upon them by western corporatism.
[2011/05/24 08:19] Kate Miranda: And it is also good to understand that sometimes people doing some things that seem really harmful to us have good intentions. When we see that, it is less stressful. We spend less time angry.
[2011/05/24 08:19] Plot Tracer: the shanty towns and the lack of clean water are as a direct result of corporatisation
[2011/05/24 08:19] Ilsa Hesse: Plot- agreed that is modern colonialism... export raw materials and be forced to import finished products at inflated prices.. .ironically, supposedly the reason behind the American Revolution

[2011/05/24 08:19] Plot Tracer: and if people can ease the poverty these people suffer, then i see nothing wrong with that. tho i would say it is a systematic problem that charity cannot hope to solve. the system needs reformed.
[2011/05/24 08:20] Chelsea Louloudi:
[2011/05/24 08:20] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, sending your used Michael Jordan (or IWW) tshirt destroys the local clothing economy.
[2011/05/24 08:20] Kate Miranda: Plot, I think that Ilsa is speaking about how the African manufacture of clothing has been decimated by used clothes
[2011/05/24 08:21] Kate Miranda: And that was subsistence wages for many poor people
[2011/05/24 08:21] Plot Tracer: ilsa -buying the things in the first place destroys the local clothing economy
[2011/05/24 08:21] Ilsa Hesse: Kate- no one cares about that as everyone does it,not just the U.S. :-)
[2011/05/24 08:21] Plot Tracer: and the corporatisation of Africa has destroyed local sustainable economies
[2011/05/24 08:22] Plot Tracer: so it is systematic - not the charities fault
[2011/05/24 08:22] Kate Miranda: I think actually it is becoming better known now Ilsa- I read a newspaper article on the issue just a week or so ago
[2011/05/24 08:22] Ilsa Hesse: well, 11 years ago I was bitching about it, and the same peoples still don’t understand it, so maybe not so much Kate
[2011/05/24 08:22] Plot Tracer: i visited north Africa a couple of years ago
[2011/05/24 08:23] Kate Miranda: It's an important issue, Ilsa, I congratulate you on your work on it
[2011/05/24 08:23] Plot Tracer: and the local traditional fabric producers and weavers are forced ionto poverty not by charity, but by the large scale factories and corporations moving in
[2011/05/24 08:23] Frederica Lexenstar: I guess thats kind of the same question I've been chewing on through this whole talk, myself...another aspect of do we get through the short term to a better future...people who need clothing now, or inexpensive food...aren't thinking about long term effects on their weconomy. Cheap milk powder seems like, and I think IS a great thing when you are trying to keep your kids fed...even if in the long term dairy farmers somewhere in your country are going out of business for it
[2011/05/24 08:24] Celia Bedrosian: indeed, Frederica

[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: i met people whose family businesses going back years and years have been destroyed by the corporations
[2011/05/24 08:24] Celia Bedrosian: how short is short-term? What do you aim for exactly?
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: cheap milk is a different thing. that DOES kill .
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: boycott nestle.
[2011/05/24 08:24] Ilsa Hesse: Frederica ... I deal with the same thing every day... is it better to pay 45 dollars a ngiht for a mat for someone to sleep on the floor... or 400 dollars a month to just rent them an apartment?
[2011/05/24 08:24] Frederica Lexenstar: well, celia, how long does a child need to go hungry before there is permanent brain damage?
[2011/05/24 08:24] Plot Tracer: i havent bought a nestle product in 20 years.
[2011/05/24 08:25] Celia Bedrosian: such a short term would restrain you in your possibilities
[2011/05/24 08:25] Ilsa Hesse stuffs the rest of her candybar in her mouth, and then stuffs the wrapper in Plot's pocket...
[2011/05/24 08:25] Plot Tracer: :)
[2011/05/24 08:26] Plot Tracer: ok - as always, folks, brilliant conversation
[2011/05/24 08:26] Frederica Lexenstar: yes. but how to reconcile the fact that for the people making the actual day to day decisions, it is THEIR kids who would otherwise go hungry, with the more abstract
[2011/05/24 08:26] Kate Miranda: It's good to end with good humor.

[2011/05/24 08:26] Plot Tracer: yes Kate :)
[2011/05/24 08:26] Ilsa Hesse: read the RL section of my profile Frederica- something I see all the time.. Some little kid with no home... and no understand of why they don’t have one
[2011/05/24 08:27] Frederica Lexenstar: as the US economy it must...I don't particularly want my kids to go without
[2011/05/24 08:27] Plot Tracer: and frederica... neither do the families of children in north africa.
[2011/05/24 08:27] Ilsa Hesse: eventually, as a species, we must decide how much survival means to us
[2011/05/24 08:28] Celia Bedrosian: what would be your answer to that Ilsa?
[2011/05/24 08:28] Frederica Lexenstar: I know! it feels very paradoxical
[2011/05/24 08:28] Frederica Lexenstar: thats why we are all marching to the cliff like lemmings
[2011/05/24 08:28] Ilsa Hesse: well, no one likes the whole "IQ test for the right to procreate" thing...especially if your name is German... but we need to get rid of our population growth as a starter
[2011/05/24 08:28] Kate Miranda: I burned out on political activism due to the degree of discord between people of good will. It is very important to keep conversations positive. Thank you for your leadership in this Plot
[2011/05/24 08:29] Kate Miranda: Yes, it is.... I go back and forth between "Bread and Roses" issues
[2011/05/24 08:30] Ilsa Hesse: yes, the donation board here, be sure to give the kid some Lindens so they can go buy some more Nestle made water :-)
[2011/05/24 08:30] Kate Miranda: Mostly I look after the "roses" these days
[2011/05/24 08:33] Celia Bedrosian: i like the meetings
[2011/05/24 08:33] Plot Tracer: well - the thing is, L£250 helps educate a child in afghanistan for a month - the "value" of lindens ins more in Afghanistan

[2011/05/24 08:33] Ilsa Hesse: race for the cure rakes in tons via SL, but they have a major name brand
[2011/05/24 08:33] Plot Tracer: yes - the meetings are great. i like to go through the chatlogs again and spot stuff i missed.
[2011/05/24 08:34] Celia Bedrosian: we missed plenty
[2011/05/24 08:34] Celia Bedrosian: starting with the topic lol- Spain...
[2011/05/24 08:34] Plot Tracer: i am interested in ilsa's stuff - i dont agree with some of it - but am here to be convinced tho. Same with some others who usually come? jos is someone else i disagree with - but learn from.
[2011/05/24 08:35] Plot Tracer: but i think it reflected how global it is - the problems in Spain are directly linked to the property crash in the us and how the banks in Europe and across the world reacted to it
[2011/05/24 08:35] Ilsa Hesse: Plot, I think we agree more than you realize, I just am not someone who goes in for the whole complainer's syndrome thing
[2011/05/24 08:35] Celia Bedrosian: linked to this century

[2011/05/24 08:36] Plot Tracer: and I am ilsa?

[2011/05/24 08:36] Ilsa Hesse: I dont think so, as much as some others, but you buy in to it :-)

[2011/05/24 08:37] Plot Tracer: i want positive actions - what we are going to do - and who we learn from. I am not for small scale change either - i believe the whole system needs to change, though recognise it is like turning a huge leviathan

[2011/05/24 08:37] Ilsa Hesse: that is exactly what it is.

[2011/05/24 08:38] Plot Tracer: i think tho ilsa, i recognise where people are, that we all have a different knowledge and experience. I don’t think it is helpful, educationally or otherwise, to call people’s views, moronic. i think to make a point, it is batter to do so as "my opinion" and welcome others opinions.

[2011/05/24 08:38] Celia Bedrosian: yes, we'll never speak with one voice, we needn't even attempt to, but we should stay friendly to one another without feeling easily offended

[2011/05/24 08:39] Plot Tracer: yes
[2011/05/24 08:39] Plot Tracer: conflict resolution and tolerence is a huge thing.

[2011/05/24 08:40] Ilsa Hesse: I would tend to agree Plot, I do snap once in awhile and become un PC... my life is in organizing, so I don’t suffer back seat drivers or sideline complainers well... nor people that have not educated themselves before they parrot some line they heard on the Lefty Radio Network.

[2011/05/24 08:40] Plot Tracer: you too celia... and you ilsa... (ilsa is a superstar by the way, celia... we disagree, but i am glad we do, as i leanr more from people with different experiance than mine ! :)

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