Monday, 9 May 2011

Net Neutrality Discussion Chatlog

Monday 25 April 2011
Tim Mersereau; Geoffrey Welders; Celia Bedrosian; josjoha; Utsche Kira; Gwen Jannings; Agnes S; Sophiekittycat; Siri Vita; Plot Tracer; Ada Zaurak

Tim Mersereau: well the topic is about internet freedom; Corporatisation of the internet, freedom of speech going the way of the dinosaur. Alternate media and websites are being attacked by fascists and governments. Net Freedom and neutrality.

Remember - we speak and listen to others, comradely! :)

[07:02] Celia Bedrosian: people think internet symbolises a high standard of living
[07:02] josjoha: i'm afraid they'll launch WW3 and use that as a pretext to crush as much they can
[07:02] Tim Mersereau: come in Gwen -- we just started
[07:02] Geoffrey Welders: I doubt we'd see another world war, we're too riddled with economic dependency with other nationstates.
[07:03] josjoha: geoffrey, we are, but war with china would be a great way to suddenly cut off the flow of slave products, cut our living standards, create poverty and then buy back labor pennies on the dollar ?
[07:04] Geoffrey Welders: We wouldn't go to war with China. We owe them too much in debt.
[07:04] Tim Mersereau: lack of access to the internet is now considered an indicator of poverty in Britain -- suggests that at least there/ here its no longer an indicator of status
[07:04] Sophiekittycat: i dont understand we talk of internet or of war ?
[07:05] Tim Mersereau: the discussion topic is Corporatisation of the internet, freedom of speech going the way of the dinosaur. Alternate media and websites are being attacked by fascists and governments. Net Freedom and neutrality
[07:05] Geoffrey Welders: Internet usage is increasing, though I do not believe a lack of internet is a cause for poverty, rather it's a result of it.
[07:05] Celia Bedrosian: status -- maybe not within the UK, but worldwide definitely

[07:05] josjoha: i think we should litterally form armies to defend freedom of speech in the areas where that is threatened/opressed
[07:06] Utsche Kira: well, sl is a wonderful example of corporatisation of internet
[07:06] Tim Mersereau: fight wars jos?
[07:06] josjoha: yes, fight a war over that

[07:06] Geoffrey Welders: Form armies? I don't think that's quite what freedom of speech means. Wouldn't you be trespassing on other's freedoms by use of violence?
[07:06] Sophiekittycat: josjaha excuse me but defending one point of view of freedom by violence it is the step point toward dictature :)
[07:06] Geoffrey Welders: ^ That.
[07:06] Tim Mersereau: well freedom of thought has sparked more than one revolution
[07:07] Tim Mersereau: the right to think and gather is one of the great causes
[07:07] josjoha: take china or another dictatorial regime, and armies to defend freedom of speech of everyone should be easy to understand what that's about ?
[07:07] Gwen Jannings: Don't we have to answer a basic question first - would commercialisation of the internet exclude non-commercial use ?
[07:07] Tim Mersereau: what do others think?
[07:07] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): idk what its like where you guys are, but here, in norway the government just decided to monitor all use of internet by all users :/
[07:08] Siri Vita: In the US our biggest issue is that corporations have been granted constitutional protections as "persons". They deem that money is speech so with their immense wealth they can drown out all other voices

[07:08] Tim Mersereau: what are they looking for Agnes?
[07:08] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): terrorists :P
[07:08] Sophiekittycat: internet is commercial since beginning, and they cant remove the private and free part of the net
[07:08] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): its true
[07:08] Tim Mersereau: and terrorism is always the battle cry of those taking liberies
[07:08] Sophiekittycat: the net exist because it is a common tool, it is why corporations failed in internet
[07:08] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): yes
[07:08] Tim Mersereau: certainly big commerce has failed in SL
[07:09] Geoffrey Welders: That was a most surprising action, Siri-as previous rulings by the Supreme Court deemed corporations were not entities entitled to free speech. It's a sign of changing times.
[07:09] Gwen Jannings: if its commercial then none of it is free we all pay for access and that funds provision of service
[07:09] Sophiekittycat: but there is commerce on the net , that i know sl is a commerce
[07:09] Siri Vita: well it's largely been used as a marketing tool by most corporations. It's when they want to get involved in political speech that there's a real problem.
[07:09] josjoha: we already pay for access and corps make profit so that's a business success - however they don't control the content and reactionary ruling class would want to control that
[07:10] Tim Mersereau: what Agnes is saying is really alarming -- terrorism is a very wide label and it is always defined by the powerful

[07:10] Sophiekittycat: there is speeches that need to be controlled anyway
[07:10] Geoffrey Welders: Commercialization of the Internet is a determining factor in access and freedom of speech through its channels. If one's not able to pay for the service, one cannot be a part of the community.
[07:10] Siri Vita: I don't have an issue with commerce on the internet at all really. It's a tool, it's a way to sell goods and that's fine as long as you can avoid it
[07:10] Siri Vita: I agree the corporate control of access is a hindrance to the general population
[07:10] josjoha: that's true geoffrey, so we have to fix the economy and government corruption so ppl can earn fair money to easily get on internet & be heard that way
[07:10] Sophiekittycat: i am always scared when people talk of beheaded ruling class, mao and pol pot done, it, anyone smart enougth to read a book was considered evil jojosha
[07:11] josjoha: i don't call for them to be beheaded
[07:11] Geoffrey Welders: Access to a wide range of knowledge and communication is a considerable threat to regimes on both extremes.
[07:11] Sophiekittycat: internet actually is more a place for blogs, for free information, but what is neutrality ? allowing talibans speeches?

[07:12] Tim Mersereau: didnt the internet begin as a mixture of an academic tool and a millitary one -- not at all commercial but certainly to do with corporations
[07:12] Siri Vita: there's no such thing as a benevolent dictator. Freedom of information and access are key's to a free society
[07:12] Sophiekittycat: i enjoy to use weekipedia, to read newpapers, to see blogs, i near not use commercial stuff else when i want agood game :)
[07:12] josjoha: it began militarilly i think as a protocol that would circumvent nodes being taken out
[07:12] Tim Mersereau: and i think speach is only free if people are allowed to say disgraceful things
[07:12] Geoffrey Welders: You can't limit access as to who may speak. There are however a few exceptions: causing a riot, libel, etc...
[07:12] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): it started by a frenc lazy guy who was fed up by bringing papers around to a lot of offices so he invented html
[07:12] josjoha: then academia and then it was pushed to the public, also by idealists
[07:13] Gwen Jannings: you are mixing two things there Tom the intrnet came from DARPA a reliable data exchange netweork, WWW came from academic use CERN
[07:13] Tim Mersereau: i hope thats true Agnes
[07:13] Tim Mersereau looks wiser now

[07:13] Sophiekittycat: liberty begin and end where is someone else liberty , as a man in street dont have right to rape me , it need too a certain control on the net
[07:13] Sophiekittycat: but what wee need is an independant international agency
[07:13] Sophiekittycat: a kind of unesco of the net
[07:13] Gwen Jannings: actually Agnes he was a lazy British guy :)
[07:14] josjoha: sophie, i disagree, if we get into such large organizations they will be beyond the control of the people and hence be corrupt
[07:14] Siri Vita: to do what Sophie?
[07:14] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): ooh kk
[07:14] Sophiekittycat: more we say internet can allow all garbage more we give reasons and weapons for others to censure it
[07:14] josjoha: all garbage should be allowed, in my opinion
[07:14] Tim Mersereau gets some coffee brb
[07:14] josjoha: because none can determine what's garbage and hwat's not
[07:14] Sophiekittycat: sorry you want to allow talibans to do their speeches on the net ? spammers to be free? mafias to use it freely ? pedophiles to roam ?
[07:15] Geoffrey Welders: That is something we just have to put up with.
[07:15] Sophiekittycat: freedom is not anarchy, freedom is not right for a few to be bullies over the others
[07:15] josjoha: you can use the internet to find mafia and pedofiles, clearly taliban can use it for hwatever political opinions they have
[07:15] josjoha: in my opinion

[07:15] Geoffrey Welders: If we start targeting one group, then another, then there's overwhelming censure.
[07:15] Celia Bedrosian: you can't control the net
[07:15] Siri Vita: if people are engaged in illegal activities find them and address them through the legal system
[07:15] josjoha: i agree with geoffrey, the 'international agency' would soon be a group that bullies imho
[07:15] Siri Vita: do not shut down free speech and free access
[07:16] Sophiekittycat: the problem is which legal system ?
[07:16] josjoha: siri, right
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: Regional legal systems.
[07:16] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): agreed Siri
[07:16] Sophiekittycat: the internet is global it need then a global agency not the whaos of hundred of states
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: No.
[07:16] Siri Vita: I don't want my rights stripped in the name of security....don't protect me by keeping me "safe" from things. Go after the criminals
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: If you limit power to one group, it -will- be abused.
[07:16] Geoffrey Welders: All agencies develop their own motives.
[07:16] josjoha: in my opinion it will be impossible to have any sort of global agency without it being imperial and opressive, so we do it through the nation-states and then havea great variety which is actually great and should increase freedom
[07:17] Geoffrey Welders: ^ That.

[07:17] Sophiekittycat: your rights ? my god, in life we have rules to prevent people to steal to bully to rape
[07:17] Gwen Jannings: Siri you already have your rights curtailed in the name of security
[07:17] josjoha: right sophy, and i would want to legislate laws against all sorts of global agencys to prevent them from bullying nations & people
[07:17] Siri Vita: indeed
[07:17] Sophiekittycat: we need rules on the net too, to avoid it to becausea garbage, and when the net will become a garbage ye s they will come and steal our net because they would say a free net dont work
[07:18] josjoha: but what is 'garbage' ?
[07:18] josjoha: is insulting Zeus garbage ?
[07:18] Geoffrey Welders: Indeed, what? Fox News? 4chan? Wikileaks?
[07:18] Siri Vita: and it's terrible. We are becoming more and more a surveillance society and who really should be able to deem speech in and of itself "safe"
[07:18] Sophiekittycat: illegal activities, call to violence to racism , traps by sects
[07:18] josjoha: our discussion is garbage ?
[07:18] Sophiekittycat: josjosha our discussion is not garbage
[07:18] Tim Mersereau scrolls back
[07:19] josjoha: there you go sophie: i called for a defense of freedom but yu called it violence in 3 seconds, so my voice will be cut off because its misunderstood
[07:19] Sophiekittycat: but total freedom on the net would make it be an hell
[07:19] josjoha: why sophie a hell ?

[07:19] Celia Bedrosian: i agree, Sophie
[07:19] josjoha: ppl who don’t like garbage go elsewhere
[07:19] Tim Mersereau: can i remind you of keeping it comradely
[07:19] Utsche Kira: yeah, why would it be hell?
[07:19] Tim Mersereau: dont get personal
[07:19] Celia Bedrosian: It's not only about individuals, also about society
[07:19] josjoha: tim, who ?
[07:19] Sophiekittycat: because you think that humans are kind? that they will be good citizens, if you give rights without rules and duties, you have anarchy
[07:20] Geoffrey Welders: Haha, let me show you a piece of the internet where there are no rules heavily enforced:
[07:20] Geoffrey Welders: Forum access, free for all to post as they please. You'll find everything from pornography to breaking news, scandal and conspiracy.
[07:20] Utsche Kira: people could be kind, but they can never be good citizens - inequalities force them not to be
[07:20] josjoha: sophie, in my view a few nations do your idea and will create an agency to block 'garbage' and other nations will not, and then we will see what happens, while the voices who need to be heard can still use the freeer nations to get on teh internet
[07:21] Tim Mersereau: that was a dilemma here in sl - about freedom and rights -- and we found criminals using the space in all sorts of dreadful ways
[07:21] Sophiekittycat: it is why we need to find a balance or they will impose the balance

[07:21] Tim Mersereau: and thats without thinking of the kinds of almost routine domestic violence i have seen in many relationships
[07:22] Geoffrey Welders: Really, if we can't control ourselves someone else will.
[07:22] Sophiekittycat: josjoha, i would like internet and life to be free, but i doubt seriously in mankind kindness
[07:23] josjoha: i'd say it is the choice of ppl to be kind or not, kind ppl can come together and form nicer nations
[07:23] Geoffrey Welders: I don't doubt the kindness of strangers individually, it's just when they get together as a group they lose quite a bit of social and mental control.
[07:23] Utsche Kira: then you have a problem, if we create an environment, where ppl will benefit from being kind, they will probably be kind
[07:24] Geoffrey Welders: What you're talking about are created cultures, things that spur up whenever something happens and a group just goes along with it. When there's no direction, people will just gravitate toward anything.
[07:24] josjoha: purpose of freedom of speech is to make the opressed voice their opposition, and such voices will tend to be seen as bad/garbage/mean etc etc by the established order; to protect that speech by law you'd have to allow all manner of 'garbage' imho
[07:24] Geoffrey Welders: And really, it's pretty much whatever idea gets there first or most observable.

[07:25] Siri Vita: the way to fight speech is with speech not with censorship
[07:25] josjoha: so it's ok to denounce garbage, to call it bad and ask for behaviour, but you can't actually outlaw it without destroying that important freedom imho
[07:25] Geoffrey Welders: Freedom of speech and neutrality is not necessarily allowing everyone to speak; but for everyone to share their piece without overstepping eachother.
[07:25] Tim Mersereau: there is a balance between freedom of speech and freedom from intimidation
[07:26] Sophiekittycat: all society need rules, there is a need between freedom of one and security of another
[07:26] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): there’s a difference between freedom of speech and calls for criminal actions tho...
[07:26] josjoha: that's true, and in legal terms that's been solved by 'is it actually planning criminal activity or calling for it' then that becomes a crime
[07:26] Geoffrey Welders: If you want control, you're pretty much going to have to be okay with legitimate uses of violence. On the other hand, a lack thereof is a pretty cutthroat scenerio. Anyone's available to be a victim.
[07:27] Tim Mersereau: big point Geoffrey
[07:27] Geoffrey Welders: Thank you, Tim.
[07:27] Siri Vita: yes there is a difference Agnes. If you call for criminal action you are opening yourself to prosecution as heading a conspiracy to do whatever....
[07:27] Sophiekittycat: it is why a global net agency , with people from all parts of world scoiety would be better than states controls
[07:28] Siri Vita: and if you are engaged in a conspiracy to do something illegal, that should be prosecuted
[07:28] josjoha: sophie, why ?
[07:28] Siri Vita: but don't give a government the power to censor speech altogether because someone "might" say something bad

[07:28] Sophiekittycat: because the net is something hosted in a country and used by people from other countries
[07:28] Geoffrey Welders: Other cultures cannot simply agree on what's taboo and is not. There are different mores, few shared, and all of them directly opposing another. The UN can't even unanimously agree on everything.
[07:28] Siri Vita: what do you want this agency to do Sophie?
[07:29] Tim Mersereau: well one thing we are seeing now is states where the internet can be simply switched off
[07:29] Geoffrey Welders: What you'd see are people finding middle grounds between their left and right views.
[07:29] Sophiekittycat: when a country host nazis sites, allowed in this country as usa, but that in germany or france, selling nazis items is forbiden ?
[07:29] Geoffrey Welders: And then, both squared off against one another.
[07:29] josjoha: sophy, so then the global agency will either say it is ok or it is not
[07:30] josjoha: and that will offend either this or that people
[07:30] Geoffrey Welders: That's due to a stark reaction of history, Sophie. It is not necessarily correct what they do, but it is understandable on their behalf.
[07:30] josjoha: and remove the power of both peoples over their area and themselves
[07:30] Sophiekittycat: offending nazis is not a problem for me
[07:30] Siri Vita: I think people are actually more intruigued by forbidden ideas. If you really have the information out there and you can debunk it openly people know it's BS. Sunlight is the best disinfectant

[07:30] josjoha: right, but now the global agency decides that it is bad to offend nazi's now what
[07:30] Geoffrey Welders: You cannot limit the Nazi party, if you want freedom of speech. That goes against the motive entirely.
[07:30] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): i dont thinks its okay to offend anyone, no matter what their views are :)
[07:31] Geoffrey Welders: They have a right to voice their opposition and desire for centralized power.
[07:31] Geoffrey Welders: Just as you do to say the opposite.
[07:31] Celia Bedrosian: I disagree there
[07:31] Geoffrey Welders: You're going to offend anyone, if you talk long enough Agnes.
[07:31] josjoha: i agree geoffrey & siri, let them say what they want we just have to make the better argument and if not then too bad we loose
[07:31] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): talk and discuss is good
[07:31] Tim Mersereau: if offence becomes the criteria then we have a kinda low level -- saying anything pro gay would be considered offensive by man
[07:31] Tim Mersereau: many
[07:31] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): haha yes i guess, but not intentionally
[07:32] Tim Mersereau: i thnk part of freedom of speech is being prepared to be offended
[07:32] Geoffrey Welders: You cannot bar access to material, simply because it may be offensive; that's totally subject to individual mores.

[07:32] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): then be offended, so what? nothing happens, youre just offended :)
[07:32] Tim Mersereau: exaclty my point - sticks and stones
[07:33] josjoha: internet allows the user to choose what to see, so i'd say everyone is free to say jut about anything as far as i'm concerned
[07:33] Geoffrey Welders: Self-sensorship and restraint are the way to go, not government oversight.
[07:33] Sophiekittycat: even to insult ? to call to racism, to sexism ? to hate ?
[07:33] Geoffrey Welders: You have the power to decide what and what not to view.
[07:34] josjoha: what about secret government agencies making lists of what people say, to later hurt them somehow ? so that's not direct sensorship by open law but more sneaky
[07:34] Geoffrey Welders: Though, really, if you're going to stop there you're missing out.
[07:34] Siri Vita: individual voices and collectives of people should be free in the expression and there should be the opportunity for rebuttal. Our biggest issue isn't stupid discretited supremacist crazy groups....most people know they are stupid discretited crazy's corporate speech and corporate money being used subversively to influence political opnion
[07:34] Siri Vita: Sophie - again, you fight speech with speech
[07:34] Siri Vita: not with censorship
[07:34] Celia Bedrosian: is that so, Siri?
[07:34] Utsche Kira: srry guys, gotta go - see ya
[07:34] Geoffrey Welders: Siri does bring up a most excellent point. MOST people do write off extremist groups as crazy and just ignore them.
[07:35] Sophiekittycat: corporate speech ? everyone do lobbying , the pro lifes the creationnists, the pro gay, the pro what you want
[07:35] Sophiekittycat: if you want total free speech corporates are right to speak too ?
[07:35] Geoffrey Welders: No.

[07:35] josjoha: of course corps can talk too
[07:35] Geoffrey Welders: Corporations are not entities, they are manufactured products of the economy.
[07:36] Siri Vita: I think there should be rules for disclosure
[07:36] josjoha: effectively its the owner / management talking, no ?
[07:36] Geoffrey Welders: Money does not add up to having more freedom over someone else.
[07:36] Siri Vita: I don't believe in censorship....rather full transparency
[07:36] Tim Mersereau: what about the freedom from exploitation and the need to protect the vulnerable? as a good society we have the obligation to do that - and that cannot be a responsibility of corporations
[07:37] Geoffrey Welders: Who's vulnerable and exploited? What guidelines would their be to define those events?
[07:37] josjoha: censorship against calling for criminal activity is already dangerously high level of sensorship, but i'm ok with that as long as its not expanded too much
[07:37] Sophiekittycat: it seems that most want a society with just freedom but not duty to protect the weak
[07:37] Tim Mersereau: this is where we have to think about the protection of children
[07:37] Siri Vita: depends what you're protecting them from Tim. If you're protecting them from something illegal then enforcement should enforce the law
[07:37] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): well at least, with the internet and the freedom of speech its all more open, we can easily pick out the ones with fascist ideas
[07:37] Tim Mersereau: indeed
[07:37] josjoha: the weak are protected by having the freedom to say what they want
[07:37] Geoffrey Welders: Indeed, Jos-because eventually you run into grey areas of 'criminal activity'.
[07:37] Tim Mersereau: and just because its on the internet doesn’t make it become permissible
[07:38] Celia Bedrosian: It's not just about fascism, though
[07:38] Tim Mersereau: so hate crimes are still hate crimes when they are online
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: sorry jojosha thoses who are heard usually are not the weak
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: if you are weak usually you need help
[07:38] Celia Bedrosian: There will soon be a time that being 'normal' is a crime
[07:38] Geoffrey Welders: Children are an entirely different scenario all together. They have to learn and mature up to a certain point, before they are prepared to take part within the community.

[07:38] josjoha: how about 'its illegal to undermine government' yet most political opinions would like to re-arrange society in a big way and you could call that 'undermining' and get them, so its already dangerously high
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: and i am sick of people who online say i can be a jerk and asshole because it is the net
[07:38] Sophiekittycat: we transform the net in a jungle
[07:39] josjoha: there are a lot of people in the world, most use the internet for good i think
[07:39] Siri Vita: So you would give governments the right to censor everyone on the internet so that you never have to suffen someone being an asshole?
[07:39] josjoha: or trivial stuff
[07:39] Geoffrey Welders: Define good, Jos.
[07:39] Sophiekittycat: in a society if there is no rules to protect the rights of everyone, the strongs the predator will have all rights, it is what give total freedom, the rule of a few
[07:40] Siri Vita: why can't you just call them an asshole and leave everyone's free speech rights alone
[07:40] Geoffrey Welders: You can totally place people on ignore, you're entitled to do that.
[07:40] Tim Mersereau: i am not talking about children being shocked -- i am talking about organised crime networks who make money out of their abuse
[07:40] Geoffrey Welders: You may even speak with people and try to convince them to do the same, but you cannot force them.
[07:40] Sophiekittycat: welcome in anarchy and rule of the strongs, we talk of justice and finalyy what we promote it is rule of the strongs ?
[07:40] josjoha: sophy, i'm seeing your censorship system as an oppressive mechanism
[07:41] Sophiekittycat: josjosha and you when you talk of using violence ?
[07:41] Geoffrey Welders: Children's access DOES need to be monitored by their parents at ALL times. Being right there with them.
[07:41] Tim Mersereau: good point Sophie

[07:41] josjoha: talk is talk rather than violence
[07:41] josjoha: that's why it should be as free as possible, because that empowers the weak (who have no weapons/numbers/strength maybe)
[07:41] Geoffrey Welders: Parents totally have their own rights to determine what is and is not appropriate for their children.
[07:42] Geoffrey Welders: And it is a parent's obligation to protect a child, while it's on the Internet.
[07:42] Tim Mersereau: not at all Geoffrey -- that works where people know how to parent -- conception doesnt teach them that
[07:42] josjoha: sophy, i talk of protecting ppl who have their right to speech attacked by other violent groups, such as governments
[07:42] Geoffrey Welders: That's just the way it is, Tim. Some parents just aren't meant for the role. Can't be helped, but they'd learn.
[07:42] josjoha: that will take violence in some cases, because you don't stop a death-squad with a piece of paper and a poem, you stop them with an ambush and bullets and whatnot
[07:42] Geoffrey Welders: Or, they'd be punished for it.
[07:42] Tim Mersereau is not so sure
[07:43] Geoffrey Welders: Can't be helped, but you can't take that away from parents who -are- capable.
[07:43] Sophiekittycat: jojosha the right to say all and everything is a danger too, because some weak minded people can finally think that they need to kill all the black they will see
[07:43] Sophiekittycat: or that all women are just sex toys
[07:43] Celia Bedrosian: Agreed, Sophie
[07:44] Sophiekittycat: sorry the right to see what you want is a violence too

[07:44] Celia Bedrosian: good points
[07:44] josjoha: these armies i want will protect absolutely any opinion, so they would be fully objective; they'd protect nazi speech as well as ghandi speech, from the death squads and stuff like that (hard repression)
[07:44] Geoffrey Welders: Weak minded people, just who are they? I imagine everyone would say they think for themselves, and it's likely more true than it seems.
[07:44] Sophiekittycat: because it is the strobgest that will be heard the most not the weak or the smart
[07:44] Tim Mersereau is with Sophie on that one
[07:44] Sophiekittycat: people listen more at demagogists as tea party or hitler not at luther king or gandhi
[07:45] josjoha: i say sophy that you set up an opression system, a bully system, which will protect the abusers very soon because it will become corrupt
[07:45] josjoha: because it is too big to control by people, and it is a monoculture
[07:45] Sophiekittycat: if there is no rule, on the net hitler or tea party or kkk will have more voice than gandi or luther king
[07:45] Geoffrey Welders: Let's take a moment and review how cultural laws and mores are set up. This is a quote by Warren Ellis, artist and social commentator: "You want to know about voting. I'm here to tell you about voting. Imagine you're locked in a huge underground nightclub filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that rape pit bulls for fun. And you ain't allowed out until you all vote on what you're going to do tonight. You like to put your feet up and watch "Republican Party Reservation". They like to have sex with normal people using knives, guns and brand-new sexual organs that you did not know existed. So you vote for television, and everyone else, as far as the eye can see, votes to fuck you with switchblades. That's voting. You're welcome."

[07:45] josjoha: why sophy ?
[07:45] josjoha: there would be a a and a, and then its up to the people
[07:46] Sophiekittycat: why ? because as is mankind, when you aim at what is easy , at the bad feelings, you have more success when aiming at brain, an morality
[07:46] josjoha: that's teh nature of speech in contrast to the nature of violence/arms which say 'we are with more so you do as we say and say as we say'
[07:46] Sophiekittycat: why do you thinnk that reality shows have better audience than documentaries ?
[07:46] Siri Vita: The tea party is withering away as we speak. Their ideas don't work in the real world. People are seeing how cruel those ideas really are and it's freedome of speech that highlights how wrong they are.
[07:46] Geoffrey Welders: What are you basing that off of, Sophie?
[07:46] Sophiekittycat: why do you think that gangsta rap calling to violence and women as sex sluts have better success than poetry
[07:46] Geoffrey Welders: Marketing.
[07:47] Siri Vita: exactly

[07:47] Siri Vita: Sohie, you want to censor music too?
[07:47] Geoffrey Welders: There really wasn't much opposition to counter the hype when it first came up.
[07:47] josjoha: sophie, so you want to enforce poetry and outlaw gangster rap ?
[07:47] Sophiekittycat: the marketing is based on human mind, if poetry was easier to put on market than reallity show we would know it already
[07:47] Tim Mersereau: practically there has to be some forms of censorship wherever from
[07:47] Sophiekittycat: personnaly i would outlaw it, because you dont know the ravages of gangsta rap in boys mind
[07:47] Tim Mersereau: as there has to be some form of law enforcement
[07:48] Geoffrey Welders: Indeed, there must be.
[07:48] josjoha: sophy, i don't know why ppl have such bad taste and choose violence, but oppression of free speech certainly in the west i don't see that as an answer
[07:48] Geoffrey Welders: Free speech IS violent.
[07:48] Celia Bedrosian: because the system in the west is irreversible, Jos
[07:48] Sophiekittycat: sorry have you be raped jojosha ? me i have be twice, and once was by boys completely in their inner trip of women are just sluts
[07:48] Sophiekittycat: then you can see danger of free speech
[07:48] josjoha: Sophie, i'd say you would be a great mother and i agree to outlaw it for your child as well, but to outlaw wider speech ... i'd say no, let's form good nations and throw the bad people out ?
[07:48] Siri Vita: Sophie would you have us all live in your cleansed and happy version of disneyland?
[07:49] Sophiekittycat: free speech don’t protect the weak it give just more possibilities to bully the weak
[07:49] Celia Bedrosian: It's not just about that Siri
[07:49] Celia Bedrosian: it'sabout the development in the 21st century
[07:49] Sophiekittycat: siri you want us to live in conan the barbarian where you make respect rules by a sword ?

[07:49] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): good point Celia
[07:49] Sophiekittycat: or you want the good old nra way , to use your gun in anarchy ?
[07:49] josjoha: sophy, i don't know if i was raped, but trust me i've been abused all my life and still in a way - denying free speech could soon be turned against you so you can't talk of being raped since its offending someone or something
[07:49] Siri Vita: who decides what speech is dangerous?
[07:49] josjoha: free speech protects you
[07:49] Celia Bedrosian: The future will
[07:50] Sophiekittycat: sorry or we have rules or we fall in an extrem anarchy or dictarure
[07:50] Sophiekittycat: free speach protect only bullies
[07:50] Siri Vita: if you call for something illegal, if you engage is something illegal, that should be prosecuted. But adults are adults and should be responsible for their actions and the consequences
[07:50] Siri Vita: I don't want to hear that a song made someone do something
[07:50] josjoha: the rule of the sword will be that everyone will say exactly what the big boss says - no freedom ofspeech or thought at all
[07:50] Siri Vita: that's not an adequate defence
[07:50] josjoha: back to the dark ages
[07:50] Plot Tracer: Sorry - I am in this late - and perhaps u have covered this already - but "free speech" does not give you the freedom to abuse..?

[07:51] Siri Vita: and you're allowing criminals to make excuses if you say music or a website drove them to something
[07:51] Sophiekittycat: i talk of completely free speech, for me free speech is one that respect people with a minimum of rules to allow to live in society
[07:51] josjoha: sophie, you're free to educate your children and live with ppl who are decent
[07:51] Tim Mersereau: i think that’s the main point Plot - freedom from intimidation must be a higher law than freedom of speech
[07:51] josjoha: and use free speech to accuse your rapists and have them prosecuted
[07:51] Plot Tracer: yes tim
[07:52] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): exactly Tim
[07:52] josjoha: and call government bad & police stupid for not protecting you
[07:52] Celia Bedrosian: Josjoha, what will the world look like after another 100 years of 'freedom'?
[07:52] josjoha: and so on: it gives you a voice, G.d knows how many victims never coudl say anything beacause there was no 'free speech'
[07:52] Plot Tracer: and i would further that by adding - freedom of speech does not give you the freedom to abuse groups - whether they are gender groups or ethnical etc.
[07:52] Sophiekittycat: jojosha you are the first to call to weapons and violence, but you think all cops and government are evil
[07:52] Sophiekittycat: sorry but a society need rules and cops
[07:52] josjoha: celia, with the kind of freedom we now have, anarchist markets, its probably a stone age world again
[07:53] Celia Bedrosian: Ice age, josjoha
[07:53] josjoha: but that's a wider issue then speech
[07:53] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): i dont think government or cops can protect anyone from being raped or abused either

[07:53] josjoha: right
[07:53] Agnes S. (agnes.sharple): thats not the way to go
[07:54] Tim Mersereau: folks i have to leave in a sec -- its a stunning afternoon and the shore is beginning to call - i will pass Plot a nc of the discussion so far for blogging purposes if thats ok
[07:54 AM] josjoha Resident: speech is a very specific issue, can't say because it is largely unregulated therefore everything is unregulated - on the contrary: freedom of speech is an achievement of law & order itself
[07:54 AM] Plot Tracer: i agree Agnes - i think it comes to what we both seem to always come to in these discussions - education... and more than that - environment. I think that an environment where "freedom of speech" means the right to hate speech, then society will be violent. And that, quite honestly is where I think we are atm
[07:54 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes education..
[07:55 AM] josjoha Resident: i'm pro-hate speech
[07:55 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: a society should promote education , equality, freedom exist only by having limits
[07:55 AM] josjoha Resident: that is, i'm against it as taste but don't want to outlaw it
[07:55 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: a society should protect the weak before to allow hate
[07:55 AM] Tim Mersereau waves, grabs his thick jumper and leaves
[07:55 AM] josjoha Resident: freedom of speech causes a great increase in equality, because everyone can at least voice their opinion
[07:56 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes Josjoha

[07:56 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha you are a man , noone will ever contest your right to be equal
[07:56 AM] Plot Tracer: Well - I disagree, Josh. I feel speech can be destructive to individuals and groups - and if destructive, should be legislated for. I believe in this society, to change some norms, sometimes legislation is needed.
[07:56 AM] josjoha Resident: that's fantasy sophie
[07:56 AM] josjoha Resident: they oppressed me all the way
[07:57 AM] Siri Vita: communities have the power to come together and fight back with speech, to shun, to marginalize, to outlaw any outward act that would rise from said offensive "speech" but the speech itself should be allowed
[07:57 AM] Sophiekittycat Resident: but for women it is a constant fight and the right for talibans to have free speech make me vomit
[07:57 AM] Plot Tracer: Today, I was out campaigning in RL in the elections and two women approached the table we had set up.
[07:57 AM] josjoha Resident: so then very soon you will loose your speech sophie
[07:57 AM] josjoha Resident: because free speech law is there for you, but once you start with sensorship its soon you to be sensored
[07:57 AM] josjoha Resident: don't you fear at least that chance ?
[07:58 AM] josjoha Resident: what would you do to prevent that from occurring, and how likely is that to succeed ?

[07:58 AM] josjoha Resident: how would you prevent the global censorship bureau to start sensoring abused women globally after, say, 250 years of that system running ?
[07:58 AM] Plot Tracer: I didnt realise one of them was "transgender" until someone went by and started shouting insults at her. She looked frightened. But I feel that sort of hate speech SHOULD be legislated for. This person was assaulted by hate speech in public. We told the hater to get to fu*k and he went. But it was horrible to witness.
[07:59 AM] Agnes Sharple: thats not use of free speech, thats abuse of free speech
[07:59 AM] Plot Tracer: yes Agnes
[07:59 AM] Plot Tracer: but the same happens online
[07:59 AM] Agnes Sharple: tell me about it
[08:00 AM] josjoha Resident: no she's at about 50 meter
[08:00 AM] Agnes Sharple: not anymore
[08:00 AM] josjoha Resident: true
[08:00 AM] Plot Tracer: there are the likes of the BNP and exteme organisations that post online in forums etc. People have the right to be free of hate speech and hate directed at them whether it is on the net or in the street.
[08:01 AM] Agnes Sharple: well, to me freedom of speech does not include the freedom to abuse with speech
[08:01 AM] Agnes Sharple: its a difference
[08:02 AM] Siri Vita: that's just flat our harassment

[08:02 AM] josjoha Resident: i agree and that was never the intention of those laws, but the problem is that if you allow for extensive censorship of 'hate' you run a big risk of cutting off voices of opposition
[08:02 AM] Siri Vita: harassment shouldn't be allowed, that much is true
[08:02 AM] Agnes Sharple: where to draw the line of harassment?
[08:02 AM] Siri Vita: it's all about what someone is actually doing
[08:03 AM] Siri Vita: i don't think speech, in and of itself should be called into question. Words should never be legislated. Actions should be
[08:03 AM] josjoha Resident: different nations may have different answers, some definitely sencor right now, i'd say that multitude of 'solutions' is worth a lot
[08:03 AM] Siri Vita: if you're in the street and harassing someone a police officer should be able to ticket you and haul you off.
[08:03 AM] Plot Tracer: well, Siri - they weren’t physically abusing her - and they were in a public space, giving an opinion of this person's gender, albeit a disgusting one - but in a public space, are we free to say what we wish?
[08:03 AM] Geoffrey Welders: The only thing you can do, to combat free speech you don't like, is to use your own words.

[08:03 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, i agree with that
[08:04 AM] Siri Vita: it's the communities job to come together and protect the weak
[08:04 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes we are still free to say what we wish Plot, but do we acceppt it, thats another thing
[08:04 AM] Siri Vita: I think you did the right think Plot and that person moved on
[08:04 AM] Siri Vita: I think it's extraordinarity dangerous to say it would be ok to haul someone off to jail for saying something to someone in an open public place
[08:04 AM] Agnes Sharple: because that was a personal attack and not really free speech
[08:05 AM] Siri Vita: I think that gives governments too much power. So we have to police ourselves or we're asking for trouble
[08:05 AM] Plot Tracer: what if the person in the public space said something anti-Semitic?
[08:05 AM] Geoffrey Welders: If we're not going to do it, someone else will.
[08:05 AM] Agnes Sharple: i am free to call anyone here an idiot, but if i say any of you are idiots because you are gay or men or black, it would be wrong
[08:05 AM] Agnes Sharple whispers: not that i think any of you are!!!
[08:06 AM] Plot Tracer: :)
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: of course it's wrong and it should be called out
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: by the community
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: I don't want the police of government to have that power
[08:06 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Hmm, what about... All idiots are men, but not all men are idiots?
[08:06 AM] Siri Vita: *or not of
[08:06 AM] Agnes Sharple: hehe
[08:06 AM] josjoha Resident: at some point speech can become violence, for example using big loudspeakers and aiming them at the neighbour and yelling insults 24/7
[08:06 AM] Plot Tracer: is some abuse more acceptable than others - on the net or in the public sphere where-ever?

[08:07 AM] Agnes Sharple: no
[08:07 AM] Siri Vita: that is harassment and disturbing the peace and can be prosecuted
[08:07 AM] Plot Tracer: ok
[08:07 AM] josjoha Resident: i agree
[08:07 AM] josjoha Resident: i've tried to use a cut-off point (in my constitution) where it is "hard to avoid" by the targeted person
[08:07 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Hmm... I believe the abuse contractually agreed upon and possibly paid for is agreeable.
[08:08 AM] Siri Vita: Plot do you really want to hand over the freedom to decide what is ok and not ok to say over to the police and government to decide and enforce?
[08:08 AM] josjoha Resident: it’s very easy to avoid hate websites for example
[08:08 AM] josjoha Resident: but not so easy to avoid such a loudspeaker
[08:09 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, geoffrey and me seem to be roughly on the same liberal line on this
[08:09 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Really, I think there's a time and place for everything. It matters if speech is disruptive.
[08:09 AM] Plot Tracer: another thing. An MP (member of parliament) in the UK is trying to legislate about the body image websites and magazines in the UK portray to young people. This is a sexism issue, as more than not, this affects women more than men (but it still effects men) - thoughts?
[08:09 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Could you define that a bit more?
[08:09 AM] josjoha Resident: what is 'body image websites' ?
[08:10 AM] Plot Tracer: The body image some websites sell to people - let’s take as an extreme - Playboy - who are now selling to pre-teens for example.

[08:10 AM] Geoffrey Welders: They are? Oh, uh-yikes.
[08:10 AM] josjoha Resident: 8 yo ?
[08:10 AM] Agnes Sharple: playboy are selling to pre teens??
[08:10 AM] Agnes Sharple: wtf
[08:10 AM] Plot Tracer: yes - they sell merchandise to them
[08:10 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Too far, really-but, anywho.
[08:11 AM] josjoha Resident: i'm against that because those children are before the age of consent and later in life could regret what adults pushed them to
[08:11 AM] Agnes Sharple: thats disgusting, its like those tees i saw 10 year old girls wearing some years ago, saying "pornstar"
[08:11 AM] Geoffrey Welders: So, are you saying... Pornography or the selling point of what is conceived as a perfect body?
[08:12 AM] Plot Tracer: Go to page ten of this magazine (written by a friend of mine in rl) -

[08:12 AM] josjoha Resident: so speech would work differently for children and adults, which makes sense since the argument for free speech is to voice the opressed, and for such a political voice having any meaning it generally needs an adult or there would be enough adults to do that
[08:13 AM] Plot Tracer: so- do we police the children on the net - or police the net, josjoha?
[08:13 AM] josjoha Resident: so if children speech is less protected that leaves room for adults to raise their children in proper behaviour ?
[08:13 AM] Siri Vita: yes I think restricting children access is absolutely fine. Not just ok but necessary
[08:13 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Children just aren't ready to experience the wide field of free speech, but certainly we should give them the tools and enough experience to fully engage in it.
[08:13 AM] Agnes Sharple: i think so too Siri
[08:13 AM] Siri Vita: not just what they can access but who can access them
[08:13 AM] Siri Vita: but that's children. i don't think adults should be treated like children

[08:13 AM] josjoha Resident: i'd say we police the ppl behind it, like policing the burglar rather then the street itself
[08:14 AM] Plot Tracer: how do we do this, Siri (i ask honestly as someone with a 14 year old boy who has as much if not more knowledge of the net than i do!)
[08:14 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Though, I think the ones who should overseer children are the parents themselves or other caretakers (school.)
[08:14 AM] josjoha Resident: in reality most children wouldn’t even complain about the worst abuses, they wouldn't dare and even sing the praises of their abuse so pressured
[08:14 AM] josjoha Resident: sad but true i guess (?)
[08:14 AM] Agnes Sharple: by talking to him and talking about all the different websites maybe?
[08:15 AM] Agnes Sharple: there is a filter as well
[08:15 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Children just need to have an adult with them, while viewing any material.
[08:15 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Err... Over the internet.
[08:15 AM] Plot Tracer: so - Geoff - what about those children who are not parented properly - or those who are hardly parented at all? As a teacher as well, I can only police my own classroom - not the childs smartphone or internet access at home.
[08:16 AM] Siri Vita: There are parental protections available and you have to monitor his computer use. Now he's can't protect him from the whole world forever. It's a fear that parents have always had but it's the way you've raised him that'll make the difference

[08:16 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Sucks for them, Plot; but, that's all there is. Hopefully they'll find some better mentor.
[08:16 AM] Geoffrey Welders: These children that don't have anyone else, they have to save themselves if no one else is willing.
[08:16 AM] Siri Vita: could you ever police all the children of the world? What they were doing after school, what they were talking about in groups away from adult supervision? why is the internet so different
[08:17 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Still, you can't take away the rights of good parents to police their own children.
[08:17 AM] Plot Tracer: i'm not into "sucks for them." I am into societal solutions. I see poor impoverished children every day of my working life - I cant accept that the fact they have parents who cant cope means they are outside solutions.
[08:17 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Then get them involved in community activities.
[08:17 AM] Plot Tracer: do you do this, Geoff?
[08:17 AM] Geoffrey Welders: I don't have children.
[08:17 AM] Agnes Sharple: be a good role model

[08:17 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, i thought maybe it works to allow children the option to either be in government care or with their parents
[08:17 AM] Plot Tracer: but there are children where u live, no?
[08:18 AM] Siri Vita: what would you suggest for those kids Plot?
[08:18 AM] Geoffrey Welders: But, if parents are fit to look after their own children, they should be punished accordingly.
[08:18 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Parents should be held liable for their child's actions.
[08:18 AM] Celia Bedrosian: I disagree
[08:18 AM] josjoha Resident: i thought children being victims, if its bad enough maybe some would escape to safety
[08:19 AM] Agnes Sharple: parents are liable for their childrens actions
[08:19 AM] josjoha Resident: and if nobody can force them back to their parents, they don't run the risk of the smooth talking parents getting control back of the child they abuse
[08:19 AM] Plot Tracer: I think the net needs to have certain safeguards. Not infringing freespeech - but perhaps something not unlike the SL solution - presenting some sort of identifier for access to "porn" or identified "hate sites"
[08:19 AM] Agnes Sharple: there are filters who do that Plot
[08:19 AM] josjoha Resident: you want that on the internet itself plot ?
[08:20 AM] josjoha Resident: i'd say its the parents responsibility, and for grown up ppl its their own
[08:20 AM] Agnes Sharple: which*
[08:20 AM] Siri Vita: well considering it would require self identification, I think you'd cut down a lot of people looking at that stuff LOL
[08:21 AM] Agnes Sharple: hehehe yes
[08:21 AM] josjoha Resident: i suppose there is 3 locations for such a filter: source site, internet routing system, end user

[08:21 AM] Plot Tracer: Jos - I think it should be a worldwide legal framework - which allows people to set up sites on what they want, but access on sexual and "hate" content should be limited to those wioth adult status in the countries the sites are available in . i feel it is more pressing we deal with the enclosure of the web. What do u think of FB/ Twitter etc - and the coporatisation of the net?
[08:22 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, i'm against any sort of supra-national system
[08:22 AM] josjoha Resident: twitter is fine by me tho i barely know what it is
[08:22 AM] Siri Vita: can you talk a little more about "adult status" Plot? Does that mean that you have an ID that follows you around the internet beyind your IP address?
[08:22 AM] Plot Tracer: does web 2.0 restrict the net? does it impair freedom of speech?
[08:23 AM] Agnes Sharple: i think nobody should access those sites unless they at least 17
[08:23 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, how do you plan to keep that supra-national legal system from not being a corrupt imperial government outside of all reasonable 'common man' influence ?
[08:23 AM] Agnes Sharple: at least*
[08:23 AM] Celia Bedrosian: (tc)
[08:23 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, what's web 2.0 ?

[08:24 AM] Plot Tracer: no siri. I mean that the site - if identified by an agreed national body, must add the safeguards. Web 2.0 are the sites and platforms like facebook and twitter and second life that are governed by corporations
[08:24 AM] josjoha Resident: ah ok, well since ppl choose to use it and others are free to make alternatives ... maybe there should be some investment in alternatives to make the market more vibrant
[08:25 AM] josjoha Resident: if its a real monopoly then it may have to be cut up though
[08:25 AM] Plot Tracer: I agree Agnes that there should be an age limit... but age limits do not necessarily mean that the person has the education to deal with sexism or racism etc... and the sometimes sophisticatedways these are sold as "lifestyle" or religious etc choices.
[08:26 AM] josjoha Resident: i'm against such sensorship
[08:26 AM] josjoha Resident: or ID system
[08:27 AM] josjoha Resident: and because it already creeps to 'hate' pretty soon offending Zeus may be called hate ?
[08:27 AM] Agnes Sharple: thats true and thats why schools needs new subjects now, like information and internet
[08:27 AM] josjoha Resident: also any kindof secure ID system hurts anonymity, but anonymity is a great asset for freedom of speech
[08:28 AM] josjoha Resident: with anonymity ppl dare talk much more, for example sophie said she was raped, i doubt most rape victims would say that if they where not anonymous
[08:28 AM] josjoha Resident: the better anonymity is, the harder for governments to maintain lists of dissidents to hurt or even murder
[08:28 AM] Agnes Sharple: why not Josjoha?

[08:28 AM] Agnes Sharple: depends on where in the world they live id say
[08:29 AM] josjoha Resident: agnes, shame, guilt, privacy, etc, it's the reality ?
[08:29 AM] Siri Vita: anonymity is so necessary in emerging democracies. It's hard enough to get people in certina countries up on proxies using anonymizers
[08:29 AM] Agnes Sharple: id say it would be a lot more shameful for the rapist
[08:30 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, i agree, anonymity & free speech both have to be protected as much we can, to protect meaningful democracy & dissent
[08:30 AM] Plot Tracer: ok - I am very conscious of the time... and I feel this conversation could go on for hours... Could we all perhaps write one finishing sentence - kinda where you think you stand on this? Do you feel the net is being taken over by the corporations, squeezing out the individuals? Do you think the net should be policed? Do you think Education is the key? By the way - do you mind if I post the chatlog to www.slleftunity? Ihave added an article I wrote a couple of years back to the blog about the net and covers neutrality etc. I'll also add the article by my friend about porn etc. as reference.
[08:30 AM] josjoha Resident: so that precludes both censorship agencies of any kind, and serious ID systems outside end-user control like a filter they installed because they like
[08:30 AM] Agnes Sharple: i think education is the key
[08:31 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh and there are more safe browsers, like TOR if anyone fear for their privacy on the net

[08:32 AM] Plot Tracer: My own belief is that like most things, I think education is the key, but I feel safeguards must be placed until society is in a place where it means everyone can make informed choices about what they access, including children.
[08:32 AM] Siri Vita: I think the community needs to police itself, call out and fight back against abuse and hate speech on the internet. I think corporations should be made to operate with transparancy and I think governments and police departments should enforce the laws, not infringe on speech.
[08:32 AM] josjoha Resident: i think internet freedom in the Netherlands is really great right now, but since capitalism (free markets in everything including money causing tyrannical businesses) gravitates to huge private monopoly control of everything, the internet would eventually be no exception; but it is a wider struggle against that tyrannical business/finance model, free speech & anonymity should be protected at nearly all cost even going to war for it.
[08:32 AM] Agnes Sharple: well, i dont think anyone yet has the knowledge to deal with the informationflow on the net :/
[08:32 AM] josjoha Resident: plot, its fine if you post chatlog, i'd be honored if you posted it
[08:34 AM] josjoha Resident: nice discussion of the hard points
[08:34 AM] Agnes Sharple: yes great discussion
[08:35 AM] josjoha Resident: geoffrey & siri might make interesting recruits for the freedom of speech/assembly army hehe : )
[08:35 AM] Siri Vita: Thanks for a great discussion everyone. I think we all want to see a kinder world I just worry about giving up the right to decide what that means to the government and police.
[08:36 AM] Geoffrey Welders: Hah, oh you!
[08:36 AM] josjoha Resident: siri, u UK ?

[08:36 AM] Agnes Sharple: yay!
[08:36 AM] Siri Vita: no US
[08:36 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh and there are free unfuckitup tees over here, make sure to grab one before leaving!:))
[08:37 AM] Plot Tracer: I think it is a difficult subject - and I have a lot to learn. Thanks all for a very interesting convo (even tho i was only hear for the second half! ) :)

[08:37 AM] Plot Tracer: yes - and remember to watch the vid of unfuckitup - I have it on my blog i think...
[08:37 AM] Plot Tracer: yes...
[08:37 AM] Siri Vita: It is a difficult subject. These are the biggest questions of our age. I think we've had a really great discussion here.
[08:38 AM] Plot Tracer: ok... next discussion is on Thursday
[08:38 AM] Siri Vita: ok I have to run. Thanks all. bye!
[08:38 AM] Plot Tracer: see u siri
[08:38 AM] Agnes Sharple: oh wow allready?
[08:38 AM] josjoha Resident: i think this is FRench revolution stuff tho
[08:39 AM] josjoha Resident: we have to solve government corruption, ecological abuse, how to have a human society without corporate tyranny & war
[08:39 AM] josjoha Resident: French / American revolution already solved many legal issues like this

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