Present: amadeus Belgar; josjoha Resident; Plot Tracer; Takiro Lowey; Will Trevellion; Aleessa Alexandre; Sophiekittycat Resident; Cellardor Resident; Borg Sugarplum; Ataraxia Azemus; Roja Zapatero
This is an emotive discussion and views will be strong. Please speak and listen to others comradely. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Flagg/216/13/114
[2011/05/17 07:09] josjoha Resident: unfortunately i don't have much opinion as i think Bin Laden is alredy 10 years dead...
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: oh
[2011/05/17 07:09] Plot Tracer: what makes you think that jos?
[2011/05/17 07:09] josjoha Resident: not that i'm the expert, but the sources i trust more say that
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: the arab "world" isnt too fussed
[2011/05/17 07:09] amadeus Belgar: just the US
[2011/05/17 07:10] josjoha Resident: Bob Chapman said that once a CIA spy said Bin L was already dead - this is years ago - she was murdered by the CIA
[2011/05/17 07:10] Plot Tracer: why do you think this was important to the US?
[2011/05/17 07:10] amadeus Belgar: symbol
[2011/05/17 07:10] Plot Tracer: ie to show he is definately dead now?
[2011/05/17 07:10] josjoha Resident: he was in the CIA and knew the one who reqruited that murdered agent, so that's why he thought that BL was dead in 2002 or something
[2011/05/17 07:11] amadeus Belgar: ah
[2011/05/17 07:11] josjoha Resident: others say that too, and BL was reported as having some sort of fatal disease and was on dialesis machine at his cave - CIA docters tried to save BL life but i guess failed eventually
[2011/05/17 07:12] amadeus Belgar: dialisis ina cave?
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: reportedly there is a lot wrong with the videos from BL as well
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: yep
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: tora bora or something ?
[2011/05/17 07:12] josjoha Resident: the guy was a billionaire or something, friend of the Bush family
[2011/05/17 07:13] amadeus Belgar: at one time he was
[2011/05/17 07:13] josjoha Resident: Bush Jr. got an investment from BL...
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: the in ladens are an oil family
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: *bin
[2011/05/17 07:13] josjoha Resident: they are friends from the mujahadeen affair or something, when Brezinsky set that up against the soviets
[2011/05/17 07:13] Plot Tracer: osama was a rebel son
[2011/05/17 07:13] amadeus Belgar: yes
[2011/05/17 07:14] josjoha Resident: so i guess the whole BL affair is to keep the public busy, destract them, rally them around their king Obama
[2011/05/17 07:14] amadeus Belgar: its a big boost for him
[2011/05/17 07:14] josjoha Resident: reportedly Obama gained 13 points over this, at an all time low
[2011/05/17 07:15] amadeus Belgar: yup
[2011/05/17 07:15] josjoha Resident: i guess its working for them
[2011/05/17 07:16] Plot Tracer: i think bin laden was killed by the us last week... but i think it was wrong to do this. I think the US reasons were to kill off "Emanuel Goldstein" - Obama was using the right wing tactics to defeat the right wing - to get ri of the bogeyman. but I think he was wrong to do it
[2011/05/17 07:16] amadeus Belgar: Pakistan lost 13 civilians just after
[2011/05/17 07:16] josjoha Resident: Bob said something like they knew BL was going to die (from the disease), so they used him to play the boogie man, and they could then play he was dead because he would anyway
[2011/05/17 07:17] amadeus Belgar: Obama will need a new Bogeyman?
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: what was noticeable in the compound - in his bedroom, was the medical equipment and the pills
[2011/05/17 07:17] josjoha Resident: well, either way Plot, whether BL was already dead or not, it is wrong to do this because it ratifies extrajudicial murder in another country no less
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: i think obama wanted to get rid of the right's bogeyman
[2011/05/17 07:17] Plot Tracer: i agree jos
[2011/05/17 07:17] josjoha Resident: Obama should be prosecuted for this, its an act of war and an act of murder
[2011/05/17 07:17] amadeus Belgar: Legal Process?
[2011/05/17 07:18] Plot Tracer: i hate the fact people - and in fact my prime minister and the leader of the opposition here in the IUK - used the word "justice" to describe this excecution.
[2011/05/17 07:18] josjoha Resident: most think there is no legal recourse in the USA anymore, i agree to that guess
[2011/05/17 07:18] Plot Tracer: *UK
[2011/05/17 07:18] amadeus Belgar: well its painted as a WAR situation so anything goes
[2011/05/17 07:18] josjoha Resident: hence the way to get justice against USA ruling classes.... is more or less revolution
[2011/05/17 07:19] amadeus Belgar: continual terror
[2011/05/17 07:19] josjoha Resident: yes that's true, but it is another nation that is not a threat and they are not officially at war either
[2011/05/17 07:19] josjoha Resident: and as far as i know Pakistan does not allow USA executions of people in their territory ??
[2011/05/17 07:20] josjoha Resident: even if they do, i don't think USA law or tradition allows it either ?
[2011/05/17 07:20] Plot Tracer: yes - 1984 style, amadeus. tho i genuinely think that obama did this to end this "continual war" as it has, regardless of all the denials, come to look like a war between two civilisations - and obama and the went do not need thsat. they need the oil and a placated arab world
[2011/05/17 07:20] josjoha Resident: yeah Amadeus, they need a new boogie man, i heard they have put out 4 new ones at the head of Al-CIA-da
[2011/05/17 07:20] Plot Tracer: *west
[2011/05/17 07:21] amadeus Belgar: Oh
[2011/05/17 07:21] josjoha Resident: i think they want to drive the world to WW3, because they know the economy is going to collapse and then ppl will really get angry
[2011/05/17 07:21] josjoha Resident: hence they need a huge war to keep the people busy and off their backs
[2011/05/17 07:21] amadeus Belgar: Did they get a lot of inf from the compound which incidentally has been recreated in SL
[2011/05/17 07:22] Plot Tracer: i think obama and the US are getting reay for the class war and feel they cant fight on two fronts. especially as the poor nations will be rising up as well as their own poor.
[2011/05/17 07:22] Plot Tracer: *ready
[2011/05/17 07:22] josjoha Resident: Bob also said they are trying to provoke Russia to make WW3 happen, and attack Iran, others said a war with CHina (which i think they'll probably want)
[2011/05/17 07:22] amadeus Belgar: well
[2011/05/17 07:23] amadeus Belgar: what signs of war then?
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: 1929 crash, 1939 war
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: yes, and the government lending game is exploding
[2011/05/17 07:23] amadeus Belgar: because of the bad economy?
[2011/05/17 07:23] Plot Tracer: i dont believe the west want war... i believe they want to control, which is different
[2011/05/17 07:23] josjoha Resident: 'magically' all accross the board
[2011/05/17 07:24] amadeus Belgar: but eonomic control is diff when you are in debt
[2011/05/17 07:24] josjoha Resident: yes the bad economy driving ppl to revolution
[2011/05/17 07:24] Plot Tracer shouts: come in to the bar!
[2011/05/17 07:24] amadeus Belgar: eventually
[2011/05/17 07:24] josjoha Resident: plot i think they want control, but war is a good means to get that for them
[2011/05/17 07:25] josjoha Resident: so we are basically back at where we where during WW1...
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: i dont necessarily think so. i think they see what trouble iraq/ afghanistan caused not only in theior own countries - but the fact they COULDNT control
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: that has made them think again
[2011/05/17 07:25] josjoha Resident: the need to strike this new world war out of existence and transform it into the revolution the reactionary enemies feared and use the war against
[2011/05/17 07:25] Plot Tracer: even libya is difficult for them.
[2011/05/17 07:26] amadeus Belgar: yes its not easy now
[2011/05/17 07:26] josjoha Resident: eventually their forces would be spread quite thin i guess, imperial overstretch before their implosion ?
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: they got the biggest military in the world
[2011/05/17 07:27] josjoha Resident: then again, they don't want Iraq stable because then their troops might have no excuse to stay and conrol oil, and no excuse to stay for the assault on iran ?? (who can tell i guess)
[2011/05/17 07:27] Plot Tracer: i think obama is smart enough to see that and is playing an endgame where the middle east is concerned. he wants the US to control - byt being nicve - not through war.
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: use subsides?
[2011/05/17 07:27] josjoha Resident: why does he keep afghanistan and iraq occupied then ?
[2011/05/17 07:27] amadeus Belgar: like with egypt?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: (or should i say: why do his bosses order Obama to do that)
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: Obama is in my opinion only a low level rat
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: who runs the world any way?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: money
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: not govs
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: no not govs i think
[2011/05/17 07:28] amadeus Belgar: what does money want then?
[2011/05/17 07:28] josjoha Resident: more money
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:29] Plot Tracer: i think he will pull out of iraq and afghanistan - but a new us friendly administration will emerge. same with afghanisitan... tho it is a very different country
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: troops in oil countries
[2011/05/17 07:29] Plot Tracer: capital runs the world
[2011/05/17 07:29] josjoha Resident: more money, more control, and less accountibility - so they want tyranny
[2011/05/17 07:29] amadeus Belgar: whats new?
[2011/05/17 07:29] josjoha Resident: that's probably their goal plot
[2011/05/17 07:30] josjoha Resident: there's 4 ppl outside the bar
[2011/05/17 07:30] amadeus Belgar: yes Iraq will still have a huge US troop pescence even when they withdraw
[2011/05/17 07:30] Takiro Lowey: The world runs on its own, people like to use different means, like money, religion, force and others to gain control. More ore less successful
[2011/05/17 07:30] amadeus Belgar: hi guys in here..........
[2011/05/17 07:30] josjoha Resident: i guess that's the CIA, NSA, ONI and homeland security eavesdropping ; ) (just kidding)
[2011/05/17 07:31] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:32] amadeus Belgar: i ben too busy chasing the opposite sex!
[2011/05/17 07:32] Will Trevellion: So how's the discussion going so far?
[2011/05/17 07:32] Takiro Lowey smiles.
[2011/05/17 07:33] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 07:33] amadeus Belgar: well its broadened out
[2011/05/17 07:33] Plot Tracer: people are giving their opinions. there are different opinions :) and that is good.
[2011/05/17 07:33] Plot Tracer: do you have an opinion on the killing takiro and will?
[2011/05/17 07:33] Will Trevellion: Yes I do
[2011/05/17 07:34] Plot Tracer: ok - tell us :)
[2011/05/17 07:34] Takiro Lowey: Yeah, there usually are a lot of different perspectives. That's interesting.
[2011/05/17 07:34] Will Trevellion: ok - well despite the atrocities Bin Laden encouraged, I still think it a disgrace to humanity that he was killed in such a way
[2011/05/17 07:35] Takiro Lowey: Well, I have an ambivalent feeling about the killing itself, much is in the shadows from my point of view if it was necessairy at that moment. Anyways.
[2011/05/17 07:35] Takiro Lowey: I strongly disagree with all the celebrations afterwards though-.
[2011/05/17 07:35] josjoha Resident: oh by the way, some story i didn't know at all but that couldbe similar: Bob thought that Saddam Hussein wasn't killed either, but perhaps living somewhere in central asia
[2011/05/17 07:36] Sophiekittycat Resident: hello
[2011/05/17 07:36] Plot Tracer: cool - yes - i think the killing should not have happened. I think he should have been brought to justice. does anyone think there may be a reason why he never stood in front of a court?
[2011/05/17 07:36] Plot Tracer: he soph
[2011/05/17 07:36] josjoha Resident: (another old CIA boy, i guess)
[2011/05/17 07:36] josjoha Resident: sophie !
[2011/05/17 07:36] amadeus Belgar: he would have spilt too many beans
[2011/05/17 07:36] Will Trevellion: The killing of Bin Laden was watched by Obama and various others - yet we know little of it
[2011/05/17 07:37] Sophiekittycat Resident: because it is so easy to capture someone who not want to becaptured ?
[2011/05/17 07:37] Takiro Lowey: The circumstances of that fight might have made it impossible to capture him alive.
[2011/05/17 07:37] Will Trevellion: It seems to me the Americans are hell bent on killing people who's countries THEY invade
[2011/05/17 07:37] Takiro Lowey: If the goal of that operation was to kill him though I don't really agree.
[2011/05/17 07:38] Will Trevellion: Hussein, Bin Laden - Gadaffi next
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: bend laden country have never be invaded sorry
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: benladen is from saudi arabia
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: and he was not a resistant
[2011/05/17 07:38] Plot Tracer: (amadeus and jos - i know we are going over some stuff we already covered - but i think it is important to do so for the new arrivals :)
[2011/05/17 07:38] Sophiekittycat Resident: dont mistake irak invasion and to kick out talibans from afghanistan
[2011/05/17 07:39] Takiro Lowey: He, I'm sorry. I was asked for my oppinion ^^
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is ok plot i will adapt :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: as i say mine, it is why we are here :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] amadeus Belgar: fine
[2011/05/17 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we can say it and stay kind :) we are all nice here :)
[2011/05/17 07:39] Takiro Lowey: INdeed
[2011/05/17 07:39] josjoha Resident: we know they lie about everything so why would they tell the truth on this supposed murder - maybe they don't, anything that is official i don't take it serious at all though frankly to hear some of the theories of what may have happened (such as dead from a disease 10 years ago, or Saddam being alive) ... (truth = stranger then fiction, comes to mind)
[2011/05/17 07:40] Plot Tracer: ok - why do you think obama chose to take him out now? Do ypou think he chose his moment? do u think there was a reason he was killed? i mean, was he a threat in anyway?
[2011/05/17 07:40] Will Trevellion: Bin Laden was first and foremost an Arab nationalist who was enraged by the presence of foreign armies on his homelands
[2011/05/17 07:40] Takiro Lowey: Jos, indeed, it is difficult to look at the truth through all the fog and shadows. At least it is for me.
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: i doubt that obama was a saint........... terrorism, call to racial hate, to terror to murders, dont tell me that someone cry this rat death ?
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: that osama
[2011/05/17 07:41] Sophiekittycat Resident: oops that osama was a saint
[2011/05/17 07:41] josjoha Resident: takiro, yes, frankly i only check sources such as prisonplanet.com and bob chapman, al martin, ...
[2011/05/17 07:41] Will Trevellion: Fundamentally, to shoot any unarmed person in the head is totally unacceptable IMO
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: you were here to know he was unarmed ?
[2011/05/17 07:42] amadeus Belgar: there were weapons within reach they said but still no excuse
[2011/05/17 07:42] josjoha Resident: the more you watch the news, the less you know
[2011/05/17 07:42] Takiro Lowey: Will: Yes, but I wans#t there.
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: you could be sure he had not a weapon ? or a bomb system ?
[2011/05/17 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry if osama was a saint hitler was a saint
[2011/05/17 07:42] Will Trevellion: If he had, don't you think all those who watched the killing would have said so by now?
[2011/05/17 07:43] josjoha Resident: plot, ok, so to repeat: i'm ofthe opinion (because of sources that seem more credible to me) that Osama has been dead for 10 years, died from a disease despite USA medical personell trying to save the life of this old Bush buddy
[2011/05/17 07:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: we talk of osama death and noone care dto talk of arabians revolts we care more this rat death than the women children and men who fight for freedom ?
[2011/05/17 07:43] Plot Tracer: Does everyone know who Emmanuel Goldstein was?
[2011/05/17 07:43] Plot Tracer: is?
[2011/05/17 07:43] josjoha Resident: no, who is he plot ?
[2011/05/17 07:44] Will Trevellion: I am not sure - enlighten me?
[2011/05/17 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: 1984
[2011/05/17 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: goerges orwell
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Goldstein
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes sophi
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: "the bogey man"
[2011/05/17 07:44] josjoha Resident: sophie, of course not, hopefully they will manage to make improvements in arabia even if their efforts may be infiltrated
[2011/05/17 07:44] Plot Tracer: the reason why they are at continual war
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: why did obama want rid of the bogey man?
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: oh that character, the head of the fake resistence
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes osama was used by bush as a kind of goldstein but at contrary of goldstein who was a creation , a ghost osama was real and killing people
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: to give the USA people a sense of accomplishment
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: was osama killing people?
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: yes usa created ben laden and then ben laden have turned against them
[2011/05/17 07:45] josjoha Resident: to pretend all the effort was worthwhile
[2011/05/17 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: osama killed people
[2011/05/17 07:45] Plot Tracer: i know he had in the past... but for ten years he was in a huge compound beside a military base in pakistan...
[2011/05/17 07:46] josjoha Resident: sophie, i think osama was not real, but a buddy of the Bush cabal and stuff, who funded and deployed them against the usa public mostly for PR
[2011/05/17 07:46] amadeus Belgar: The european terrorists were home grown
[2011/05/17 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: osama was helped by parts of pakistani secret services
[2011/05/17 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha and elvis presley is planning invasion with marsians ?
[2011/05/17 07:47] josjoha Resident: pakistani servises where said (yeah what do we know, but what sourses are there ...) to be budies with the USA security services
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: ²if all is plots if all is subversion one of us of course is a mossad and cia agent
[2011/05/17 07:47] amadeus Belgar: not me
[2011/05/17 07:47] josjoha Resident: elvis presley is dead sophie
[2011/05/17 07:47] amadeus Belgar: good one
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha evil people exist , murderers exists , and they are not just maericans or politicians
[2011/05/17 07:47] Takiro Lowey chuckles.
[2011/05/17 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: and osama is dead too
[2011/05/17 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: but there is people who think elvis is alive
[2011/05/17 07:48] josjoha Resident: that may be the case as well sophie, reality can be difficult
[2011/05/17 07:48] amadeus Belgar: what as elvis got to do with this?
[2011/05/17 07:48] Sophiekittycat Resident: reallity is difficult , people can be murderers monsters
[2011/05/17 07:48] josjoha Resident: yes, and various criminal groups can work together and design their schemes
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: but will we cry on osama when people in lybia in syria need help ? need people to fight for them ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: what do you think corruption is ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] Plot Tracer: i dont believe in evil. i believe in cause.
[2011/05/17 07:49] Will Trevellion: not all murderous monsters are total lunatics
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: dark deeds in secret
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: or the death of a terrorist is more important than freedom fight of innocents ?
[2011/05/17 07:49] Plot Tracer: there were reasons behind this terrorism as real as the IRA or UDA or INLA or Ref Faction etc
[2011/05/17 07:49] Will Trevellion: I don't think anyone says it is Sophie
[2011/05/17 07:49] josjoha Resident: nobody said that sophie
[2011/05/17 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot religiosu madness of osama is a real reason
[2011/05/17 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot you are european as me you know that we killed each others for religion for centuries
[2011/05/17 07:50] josjoha Resident: the secret servise agents, even if here, should not be a problem because their numbers are very low compared to the people, so they are drowned out by democratic protocol
[2011/05/17 07:50] Will Trevellion: still are doing
[2011/05/17 07:50] Plot Tracer: but - i think murderers in organisations like this who enjoy killing "the other" have mental problems - and would have been killers under other circumstances. i believe anyone who enjoys killing would have found reasons to do so.
[2011/05/17 07:50] Sophiekittycat Resident: propaganda brain washing , religious fantism it is enougth
[2011/05/17 07:50] josjoha Resident: osama was not a muslim, because he invested money on profit
[2011/05/17 07:51] josjoha Resident: which is a big no no in >Islam (as it should, by the way)
[2011/05/17 07:51] Plot Tracer: no jos - his family were oil people - ARE oil people
[2011/05/17 07:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: catholicism say dont kill each others and it not prevented catholics to kill each others
[2011/05/17 07:51] josjoha Resident: what they d owith money ? reportedly Osama invested it with Bush's upstart, could be zapata oil
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: but sophie - do ALL catholics do that? do most? do a large fraction?
[2011/05/17 07:52] Mila Tatham is Online
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: but some
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: so it is nothing about the religion
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: and not all muslims are terrorists
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: it is about what affected that person to do so
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: but some catholics were butchers then some muslims can be bucthers
[2011/05/17 07:52] Will Trevellion: agreed Plot
[2011/05/17 07:52] josjoha Resident: catholics tend to kill non-catholics
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: it is not because you are not white not european or american that you cant be a bastard
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha reread history
[2011/05/17 07:52] Plot Tracer: they can use religion as a reason - but i believe anyone who kills people for pleasure - or takes pleasure in killing "the other" is mentally ill.
[2011/05/17 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: what were war in europe
[2011/05/17 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha catholics killed each others fro more than 1500 years
[2011/05/17 07:53] Will Trevellion: I think you are right there Plot - but what determines mentally ill?
[2011/05/17 07:53] Plot Tracer: "not all muslims are terrorists..." - are most? half? 30%? 0.1%?
[2011/05/17 07:53] Plot Tracer: no
[2011/05/17 07:53] Takiro Lowey: sophie: I got lost now what point you are trying to make.
[2011/05/17 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: justa few just 0.00001% of muslims
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: sociopath/ psychopathic etc
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: are u sure about that figure, sooph?
[2011/05/17 07:54] josjoha Resident: yes will, that sounds wrong on that point, what is 'mentally ill' ? are ppl who are 'mentally ill' now mass murderers ?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Will Trevellion: who is to say we aren't all nuts
[2011/05/17 07:54] Plot Tracer: no - but i believe those who murder have a mental illness.
[2011/05/17 07:54] Takiro Lowey: Plot is stating taht he deosn't believe in evil, and you talk about wars. Yes there where wars a lot of the, some of them where cause by a misguided view ion religion so ?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Will Trevellion: or - are all mental patients, potential murderers?
[2011/05/17 07:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot i have not the numbers but i am sure there is a smuch nice people in muslims that in other religions
[2011/05/17 07:55] josjoha Resident: sophie attempts to proof that Osama could have been a religious fanatic, adn that therefore the Government PR stunt (in my opinion it was that) could have been true ?
[2011/05/17 07:55] amadeus Belgar: i dont this religious conflicts are about religion
[2011/05/17 07:55] Takiro Lowey: Excuse my spelling.
[2011/05/17 07:55] Plot Tracer: Will - of course not. but those who kill for pleasure or take pleasure in killing have a mental illness. this doesnt mean all people with mentall illnesses are potential killers tho.
[2011/05/17 07:56] Will Trevellion: yes I agree with you Plot - but who has the right to determine who is mentally ill and who is not - mental illness is caused by many things
[2011/05/17 07:56] josjoha Resident: i think it is sufficient to say they have broken laws if they kill, and must be prosecuted and punished
[2011/05/17 07:57] Plot Tracer: well - i can say that i can determine that those who kill for pleasure are mentally ill. it does not take much determining :) but then we have to look at the causes of that mental illness.
[2011/05/17 07:57] amadeus Belgar: in a crazy world the crazy ones can be sane
[2011/05/17 07:57] Will Trevellion: Yes the determination/reason of why people do things is often overlooked by the demand for a "justice"
[2011/05/17 07:58] josjoha Resident: i don't agree that murderers are necessarily mentally ill, though many could also be that or become that because of their activities, i don't know
[2011/05/17 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: and someone reading us now could doubt of our mental sanity ?
[2011/05/17 07:58] Will Trevellion: very true Sophie - lol
[2011/05/17 07:58] Plot Tracer: look at the biggest killers in our society... Bush, Blair, Cheney etc. Do you think they were parented properly? Do you think that someone who will decimate a country to improve their bank balances are mentally stable?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Trent Infinity: I agree with Plot, you have to have some sort of cognitive disconnect to be able to kill another
[2011/05/17 07:59] Trent Infinity: the question is: what is causing the disconnect
[2011/05/17 07:59] Will Trevellion: Well let me ask a question
[2011/05/17 07:59] josjoha Resident: you could equally say that people's who support the wars ofwestern miiltaries are mentally ill - so in effect almost everyone is mentally ill (isn't it a sign of retardation to think Iraq could be a military threat to the west ? i think so)
[2011/05/17 07:59] amadeus Belgar: we get brain washed
[2011/05/17 07:59] amadeus Belgar: dont we?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Will Trevellion: IF one of your relatives/children etc was murdered, would YOU want to murder the murderer?
[2011/05/17 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha but that people who suport other countries are mentaly ok ?
[2011/05/17 08:00] josjoha Resident: i didn't say that sophie
[2011/05/17 08:00] amadeus Belgar: voice?
[2011/05/17 08:00] amadeus Belgar: heard a voice?
[2011/05/17 08:00] Will Trevellion: wasn't me
[2011/05/17 08:00] Borg Sugarplum: i have come to tell you why esperanto is for optimising the human race
[2011/05/17 08:00] Plot Tracer: well josh - if there was a rule to say the first born of the president or prime minister was to be strapped to the front of the first tank in an invasion, do u think they would have allowed it? They are disconnected (to use Trents term) from their war.
[2011/05/17 08:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am never in voice i dont understand spoken english
[2011/05/17 08:01] amadeus Belgar: well its a young voice
[2011/05/17 08:01] josjoha Resident: there are often reasons for murder, such as getting rid of a criminal who is not otherwise gotten rid off - think of a society without law enforcement for example
[2011/05/17 08:01] Borg Sugarplum: well
[2011/05/17 08:01] Takiro Lowey: I have voice turned off. You should pe able to see in your nearby people window who ist alking
[2011/05/17 08:01] Will Trevellion: That surely depends on which part of England someone is living - accents do vary greatly Sophie
[2011/05/17 08:01] Plot Tracer: Well, Will, coming from northern ireland, i cant say i would. i have seen death like this... but i know few people who wanted to go out and kill more. they wanted justice yes... but they also did not want someone lelses son/daughter dead.
[2011/05/17 08:02] amadeus Belgar: its BORG
[2011/05/17 08:02] amadeus Belgar: sugarplum
[2011/05/17 08:02] Will Trevellion: Good point Plot
[2011/05/17 08:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: no will it is that english is not my language
[2011/05/17 08:02] Will Trevellion: what is your language?
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: to
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: left leaning comrades
[2011/05/17 08:02] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am french
[2011/05/17 08:02] Borg Sugarplum: into my esperanto class
[2011/05/17 08:03] amadeus Belgar: ok
[2011/05/17 08:03] Plot Tracer: ok - can we finish the discussion. if everyone sums up their feelings on this in one paragraph... remember the question was - Was Osama Bin Laden's assassination justified? Oh - and do people mind if i publish this on www.slleftunity.com
[2011/05/17 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot why to use assassination word ?
[2011/05/17 08:04] Will Trevellion: No to both questions
[2011/05/17 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we should use death not assassination
[2011/05/17 08:04] Plot Tracer: if u disagree with it soph - say so in your paragraph
[2011/05/17 08:04] Borg Sugarplum: how do you know me
[2011/05/17 08:04] Borg Sugarplum: no
[2011/05/17 08:04] Cellardor Resident also says no to both questions
[2011/05/17 08:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: assassination it make us side with ben laden
[2011/05/17 08:05] josjoha Resident: this person, whoever he was (i don't think Osama), was in another nation and there was no serious 'hot' war front between these nations, secondly 'terorrism' is a crime and not an invading army, they should have maintained their own justice inide the usa and could ask politely for extradition for crimes committed on their soil and that's all
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: ardent socialist
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: i think we should read
[2011/05/17 08:05] Borg Sugarplum: from
[2011/05/17 08:06] Borg Sugarplum: some anarchist texts
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha he was hidding and doing a terror was against people
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha ben laden was as dangerous for people than bush
[2011/05/17 08:06] josjoha Resident: sophie, yes, so they could ask that nation for an extradition and that's it
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: he was hidding and protected by secret services
[2011/05/17 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: by parts of secret services
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: noone knew where he was
[2011/05/17 08:07] Plot Tracer: ok my last paragraph. I believe Osama was assasinated - I believe he had secrets that would not have suited the present world order. i believe tho, obama and his administration wanted to get rid of the bogeyman of the east in order to anticipate what is coming - ie a class/economic/ecological new phase...
[2011/05/17 08:07] amadeus Belgar: US asked Taliban for Osama
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: he refused to surrender
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: trend i remember you from the other day
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: trent
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: the oil talk
[2011/05/17 08:07] josjoha Resident: in fact i have heard (but what do we know) various nations have offered to bring Osama to the usa, but the usa didn't want it because they needed Osama as the boogey man - it is all a great theatre, imho
[2011/05/17 08:07] Will Trevellion: many refuse to surreneder but are not shot through the head
[2011/05/17 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: and talibans are nota country they are butchers and slavers
[2011/05/17 08:07] Borg Sugarplum: ahmedinejad for world president
[2011/05/17 08:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: the one who say talibans are a legitimate group then support women slavery
[2011/05/17 08:08] Borg Sugarplum: sophie any democracy is bad when 60% of men vote rape is ok, this occurs with any kind of standardisation of vote, voting is a crude representation of what people think
[2011/05/17 08:08] josjoha Resident: Borg, lol
[2011/05/17 08:08] Will Trevellion: I don't support the Taliban - I simply say the way in which Bin Laden was executed was unacceptable
[2011/05/17 08:08] Borg Sugarplum: its why you need fracturing, and diminished government
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: so people can experiment with their own kind of mini states
[2011/05/17 08:09] Cellardor Resident: cite your source for those statistics, Borg
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: cellador, what statistics
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: i gave an example of how democracy can fail
[2011/05/17 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: i will not cry on ben laden, he refused to surrender it washis right, a rat is dead there is still many rats waiting to be erased
[2011/05/17 08:09] Cellardor Resident: you stated "... 60% of men vote rape is ok ..."
[2011/05/17 08:09] Sophiekittycat Resident: and not 60 % of men think rape is ok
[2011/05/17 08:09] Borg Sugarplum: yes, when 60% of men vote rape is ok, the measure gets passed
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: thats a fail
[2011/05/17 08:10] Plot Tracer: OK - has the osama iscussion ende?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Plot Tracer: ended?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Ataraxia Azemus: As long as 80% of women don't vote against it :p
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: because democracy works with educated people
[2011/05/17 08:10] Cellardor Resident: Oh, a fictitious hypothetical on yoor part?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: its social proofing of peoples thoughts and happens all the time
[2011/05/17 08:10] josjoha Resident: sophie, so yu approve of extra-judicial excecutions, or to use another word for that: death-squads ?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Will Trevellion: I thik it has Plot - this is deviation
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: yes
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: no sophie
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha if someone refuse to surrender ina fight what do you do ?
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: it doesnt because
[2011/05/17 08:10] Borg Sugarplum: my views are different to yours
[2011/05/17 08:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: if he can kill you you kill him before
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: and i dont want standardisation
[2011/05/17 08:11] Plot Tracer: ok cool. those who want to continue chatting cool - go for it. those who were part of the osama convo - are u ok with me publishing a chatlog?
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: sophie, oh ok, well i agree to that
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: why not experiment with 100 forms of society, why just choose one
[2011/05/17 08:11] Will Trevellion: yes ok Plot - why not
[2011/05/17 08:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: we talk of an hidding terrororist in a situation which usa had an agreement with pakistan for such intervention
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: provided the arresting party is legal, which in this case they wheren't as far as i know
[2011/05/17 08:11] Cellardor Resident: we have, it's called history of civilization, Borg
[2011/05/17 08:11] Roja Zapatero: hi everybody
[2011/05/17 08:11] josjoha Resident: (legal and justified)
[2011/05/17 08:11] amadeus Belgar: they werent
[2011/05/17 08:11] Ataraxia Azemus: Some versions of the story do have bin Laden surrendering...I don't really know what happened, but he was unarmed at least. I don't think the US had any intention of capturing him, though.
[2011/05/17 08:11] amadeus Belgar: hi roja
[2011/05/17 08:11] Borg Sugarplum: Cellador what makes you think this form is perfect, if at every point in history we have changed and moved on?
[2011/05/17 08:12] Will Trevellion: Agreed Ataraxia
[2011/05/17 08:12] josjoha Resident: sophie, ah ok, so then maybe if Pakistan agrees to this kind of intervention, then there is a possible argument that it is right
[2011/05/17 08:12] Will Trevellion: and they have no intention of capturing ghadafi alive either
[2011/05/17 08:12] Cellardor Resident: I didnt say I think it is perfect. I dont think that at all
[2011/05/17 08:12] Borg Sugarplum: but then why do you think we should not experiment more?
[2011/05/17 08:13] Will Trevellion: Shall we come back and discuss when Ghadafi is executed?
[2011/05/17 08:13] amadeus Belgar: ha
[2011/05/17 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: that ben laden died as the rat he was not make me sad, what make me angry is that bush will escape what he done
[2011/05/17 08:13] amadeus Belgar: no he has a trial in the cards
[2011/05/17 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is men that the planet not need to cry
[2011/05/17 08:13] josjoha Resident: sophie, what makes you think Bush will escape us ?
[2011/05/17 08:13] Cellardor Resident: Perhaps I just objected to the idea of experimentation in such a context
[2011/05/17 08:13] Will Trevellion: I disagree Sophie - that is a very inhumane statement
[2011/05/17 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha what make you think he will not escape ?
[2011/05/17 08:14] Borg Sugarplum: Cellador: you think people should not have what they want? if anarchists want to live here and capitalists here and opensource lovers here?
[2011/05/17 08:14] Borg Sugarplum: have you guys heard of the free states project
[2011/05/17 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: will the inhumane statement is to ccry over ben landen death to make it more important asa subject that thoses dying in libya in syria for their freedom
[2011/05/17 08:14] amadeus Belgar: no
[2011/05/17 08:14] Cellardor Resident: Im all for that, Borg.
[2011/05/17 08:15] amadeus Belgar: good point
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: the free states project is where libetarians pledge to move to new hampshire and they have 11000 people signed up, its really cool because they can vote in the kind of government they want
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: if successful i think you will see alot more like this
[2011/05/17 08:15] josjoha Resident: my system, which i hope ppl will do, it will be effective (i think), we set many goverments to a high level of non-corruption, then we engage in a great law enforcement effort and part of that i we find the Bush family, and all the others; i hope and think we will find enough convicting evidence, and they did enough crime when not acting heads of state
[2011/05/17 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: i hate everyone death but i find more disgusting to consider ben landen death more important than thoses dying for freedom of their famillies
[2011/05/17 08:15] Takiro Lowey: sophi: Well, there been people, kindof dancing on his grave, do you think that is ok ?
[2011/05/17 08:15] josjoha Resident: Borg, yes i heard of that
[2011/05/17 08:15] amadeus Belgar: ok
[2011/05/17 08:15] Will Trevellion: Sophie - if you cannot see the death of anyone as a hmm .... sad event....then I feel sad for you
[2011/05/17 08:15] Cellardor Resident: Do you intend to secede?
[2011/05/17 08:15] Ataraxia Azemus: I don't have much love for bin Laden, but I think the assasination makes the US lose face.
[2011/05/17 08:15] Borg Sugarplum: ok time to eat now
[2011/05/17 08:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: no no it is not ok to dance on someone death but people have always been inhumane
[2011/05/17 08:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: but we have more important to cry on than him
[2011/05/17 08:16] josjoha Resident: Borg, i think it is not a smart move to set up that state, because you concentrate active people there who would then be easily murdered
[2011/05/17 08:16] Will Trevellion: that does not mean you can't shed a tear and move on
[2011/05/17 08:17] Takiro Lowey: This isn't all about crying, it is reflecting on actions and thinking, and that is important.
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: lol not that I did - but I was saddened by the way
[2011/05/17 08:17] Plot Tracer: personally- i think any death is a tragedy
[2011/05/17 08:17] Takiro Lowey: At least for me. Just because this is discussed, doesn't mean we do not think about other things as well.
[2011/05/17 08:17] josjoha Resident: that's true sophie, but if we decry the murder its not for Bin laden, but for the loss of the proces of justice
[2011/05/17 08:17] Ataraxia Azemus: I don't have to feel sorry for bin Laden to still find the US' actions questionable :p
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: agreed tai
[2011/05/17 08:17] Ataraxia Azemus: Right, Jos
[2011/05/17 08:17] Sophiekittycat Resident: will i hate violence i am paralyzed by violence, i find uggly to be happy of someone death but when i see ben laden death and what happen around on planet ?
[2011/05/17 08:17] Will Trevellion: sorry Tak
[2011/05/17 08:17] Cellardor Resident nods to the last few ccomments
[2011/05/17 08:18] Will Trevellion: I see what you say Sophie - but one death affects many
[2011/05/17 08:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: and i will appologize ( near as usual) for being perhaps too passionate in my feelings
[2011/05/17 08:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry i was perhaps rude by moments
[2011/05/17 08:18] Plot Tracer: soph - i love your rudness! :) you say what you feel - which is always good.
[2011/05/17 08:18] josjoha Resident: sophie, i don't cry over the death of that SOB bin laden either, why ? he was a murderer he got his own medicine
[2011/05/17 08:19] Takiro Lowey: I agree with you Plot
[2011/05/17 08:19] Plot Tracer: I learn every week from other people here. this is good - this is the purpose of these discussions. and it is good to know what to disagree with as well :)
[2011/05/17 08:19] josjoha Resident: okay sophie
[2011/05/17 08:20] josjoha Resident: many can scream and shout (me too), not so many apologise for anything
[2011/05/17 08:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: the lesson is that sometime the death one one can affect us more than thousand of nameless people death
[2011/05/17 08:20] Will Trevellion: yes
[2011/05/17 08:21] amadeus Belgar: i prefer to deal with numbers of dead
[2011/05/17 08:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: and it is a sad lesson
[2011/05/17 08:21] amadeus Belgar: each person has value
[2011/05/17 08:21] josjoha Resident: sophie, i sometimes hear ppl decry the French Terror after the French Revolution; then i wonder when they start crying over the deaths those ruling
classes, barons and kings have caused unashamedly over the centuries before
[2011/05/17 08:21] Will Trevellion: You have to have lost a loved one before you can truly understand the meaning of death
[2011/05/17 08:21] Ataraxia Azemus: Adios, Roja
[2011/05/17 08:21] josjoha Resident: secondly, they probably don't wonder about the risk those then defeated classes regain their footing to start another reign of misery
[2011/05/17 08:22] Roja Zapatero: see you, bye
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: who decries the victims of those classes ?
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: plot what do you think of the antiwar songs site ?
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha french terror was pure madness
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: i call it a warning sign to tyrants
[2011/05/17 08:22] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha terror killed people from all sides just for madness fear and politic
[2011/05/17 08:22] josjoha Resident: and who support them
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: hm, oh that's odd ? didn't they mainly kill the nobility at least ?
[2011/05/17 08:23] Sophiekittycat Resident: jojosha we not had so much nobles in france
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: well, the guillutine was a mercifull killer, too
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: you had that sun-king...
[2011/05/17 08:23] josjoha Resident: i'm glad you got rid of those
[2011/05/17 08:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: the sun king died of old age :)
[2011/05/17 08:24] josjoha Resident: i know, but his descendents, louis 15th, 16th..
[2011/05/17 08:24] Sophiekittycat Resident: louis 16 lost his head yes
[2011/05/17 08:25] Sophiekittycat Resident: but louis 16 was too the one who helped usa to become a republic
[2011/05/17 08:25] amadeus Belgar: was that good?
[2011/05/17 08:25] josjoha Resident: so, that's what happens if ruling classes push it too far ... they better remember it
[2011/05/17 08:26] Plot Tracer: ok - before i go - if anyone wold like to sugest topics for next week that would be cool. im them to me :)…
[2011/05/17 08:29] Will Trevellion: bye everyone - look forward to another interesting afternoon
[2011/05/17 08:36] SLLU donation box: Thank you, Sophiekittycat Resident for your donation to SLLU !
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