Wednesday, 21 January 2009

Minutes of meeting 20 1 09

Smoke Wijaya
Jasmine Hancroft
BrotherJim Jonesford
Sol Larsen
Jamadagni Lefavre
Anango Magic
Plot Tracer
Bugme Diavolo
1 : limits to how much stuff each group who use SLLU as a hub place - perhaps a limit to prims and talk about "reasonable" size etc/limit amount of promo material for other groups – Unity had limited prims…

Real life affiliations wall will allow for this to some respect. That is to be one prim for an org/party. This will of course be able to house an inventory which can be dispensed.
Weekly meetings to ensure there is balance in groups represented. Some voiced concerns over “Vanity groups” like thoise controlled by Genjcchristian Homewood,

Concerns: What constitutes a “group” in SL – some are controlled by one person… some by a few individuals… some are as democratic as SL conditions allow.
Reminder of SLLU charter/Aims and Principles
Suggested: groups should show some sort of democracy eg group shared land/ members notice enabled etc – if in doubt join the group - see if you have notices perms/ land is group owned.
2: Update on RL affiliations wall
Smoke Wijaya: yep, did not make it yet ...
[14:45] Plot Tracer: kk - when do u think you would be ready to start?
[14:45] Smoke Wijaya: but will send out a notice to ask if people who would want their Rl affiliation on there to send to me and someone else so we can discuss them on the next meeting?
[14:45] Smoke Wijaya: I can make the wall tomorrow
[14:48] Plot Tracer: yes - cool. you will be able to have something with the rl group/orgs insignia... and an inventory then?
[14:48] Smoke Wijaya: the prim can have inventory
[14:48] Smoke Wijaya: and there texture on it

[14:49] Plot Tracer: sounds great. where will you build it?
[14:49] Smoke Wijaya: I think we decided on the second floor, or first .. the one above this one .. but I think it would be better at the lowerfloor, but that is another point on the agenda, point 4
[14:49] Smoke Wijaya: yeah, I thinkwould be good to have down here
3: winding down the current feminist exhibition - set an end date. Downstairs in the hub needs to be cleared for a dancefloor for the party. There are two more exhibitions lined up - one from a rl art gallery in new york... (Plot to follow these up). Also Tooter Claxton is working on something for union island - and this was to be mirrored here. (Plot to follow this up as well)
Suggestions that instead of “winding down” it is moved to the parcel in Flagg of the feminist network – though, this is up to the Feminist Network.
It was suggested that the exhibition be cleared for Wednesday 4th February in order for the space to be cleared in time for the party on 7th. And dancefloors and lights/ dance poseballs to be placed.

4: the downstairs floor in the hub to be used for SLLU and info around it? Teleporters to other places/notecsard dispensers etc.
Suggested: Promo space in the hub for the feminist space.
notecard dispensers about sllu/ sllu feminist network/ history of sllu etc etc
SLLU exhinbition space would move upstairs.
Bottom floor to be for the notecard dispensers/ teleporters etc - and keep for live music venue.
5: Dance pose balls for the SLLU birthday party on 7th Feb. (VLB and Russell Epobnym have been booked so far – details are on Events)
Jasmine Hancroft to help with with dance balls or stuff for party.
Smoke Wijaya to supply dancefloor, poseballs and lights.
[15:09] Plot Tracer: can u supply some poseballs and a dance floor?
6: Obama letter request – Zoe Parness to report back
“Obama letters
Sorry I can't be at the meeting ... have another event i promised to attend
This was not a *huge* sucess
So far I know of only six contributions (and one of these was mine )
Oh well .... nevermind
I did contact most of the pro-Obama groups in SL so hopefully it has raised the profile of SLLU with people who may possibly be interested in joining.
Anyone want a second-hand post box?
Zoe “
[15:10] Smoke Wijaya: only 6? thats not bad
[15:10] Smoke Wijaya: jesus
[15:10] Smoke Wijaya: Zoe never tried to organise something in SL I think ... lol
[15:11] Plot Tracer: i can add to that - we have had 10 contributions - which is not bad. one of the contributions was from the UK TUC
[15:11] Smoke Wijaya: thats not bad at all
[15:11] Jamadagni Lefavre: give it time
[15:11] Plot Tracer: indeed
[15:11] Smoke Wijaya: man, I wish I had that every time I ask for contributions
[15:11] Jamadagni Lefavre: organizing in sl is slow
[15:11] Plot Tracer: yes
[15:12] Plot Tracer: i reckon by the end of the week we will have more - i would say we can expect about 20 - all of which should go on the website
7: Freebie shop - people can donate things to the freebie shop - it has a lot of stuff - but it can always do with more!
Suggestions: Plot to promote with notices/ims calling for materials.
Anango Magic to supply some stuff.
Jamadagni Lefavre gave: Temporary Autonomous Zones – Plot will place this later in the week.
8: Who can facilitate next weeks meeting?
Plot to compile agenda from the suggestions of comrades thoughout the week. Smoke to facilitate. Meeting will be on Sunday at 2pm SLT.
9 : Update on Abel’s, Ernests and Sol’s articles on their view/ their groups view on Palestine. These are to be subimitted to Plot so he can place them all on the website at the same time.
Abel and Ernest have submitted articles and Sol will forward one to Plot. Bugme Diavolo has
[15:22] Smoke Wijaya: well..I think we would welcome any articles of members on Palestine .. but the Ernest/Abel?sol thing has also a bit history to it...
stipulation that no-one attacks other people in their pieces for the blog.
10: Support for pro-Palestinian groups in SL. - in particular what would be positive things to do within these groups to support the Palestinian cause - and remain comradely and united.
Suggestions- use of the blogspace
No further suggestions were made.
Smoke said he would look into the teleporters in unity Station and make them more “logical”
While meeting was going on, Maximillion Kleene confirmed he will play at the Birthday party.
Booked so far – Russell Eponym, Virtual Live Band, Maximillion Kleene, Wildo Hoffman

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Abel said...

I wasn't able to make it to the meeting, so I'll voice my opinions on some of the agendas here.

Point 9, I think two things should be taken into consideration with addressing others. Criticism should not be frowned upon, so long as that criticism is political, and is supported by facts, figures and statements quoted by the person.

For example, if "Unknown Person" said, "I believe in 100% support for Obama, all others be damned. Obama is the best thing to ever happen to us." and lets say he was at the head of a solidarity group... let's say... Stop the War in Afghanistan, I believe people should criticise him, openly, and in public. (As per the public image of Obama. And as most of us know, Obama wants to expand that war.)

But in regards to each of us making articles. I think those articles are much less about the three of us. Or at least, that is what I wanted to put across through my own, that actually, these articles are about solidarity with Gaza, and knowing the history and being able to make a correct analysis on what to do about it, how best to be relevant to those struggling against Israel etc.

So, whilst Smoke said there is history behind the conflict between us, I do not believe, at least for my own article, that it came through. I feel that I was clear that those conflicts were not where what I see as a problem ended, and that it was much more about everyone else than one or two miserable lefties (no offense you two).

In regards to point 10. I think the SLLU's role in supporting these groups should not be unconditional. These groups must be democratic, and must encourage, and ensure, that Arabs and Palestinians play a central role in the activity of the group if the SLLU is to support it. I believe that for the SLLU to support these groups without the above conditions gives the false premise that a lack of the above conditions is not only okay, but will be whole heartedly supported.

I think the most positive thing the SLLU can do is to help organise educationals for its own membership on the issue, discussion groups etc. Ones that bring to the surface the hard facts about Apartheid Israel and the U.K's and U.S's involvement with it. One that will serve to deny right wing claims of it being in any way justified.

I think what the SLLU can do is try to seek out its own Arab/Muslim and Palestinian membership (if there is any) and encourage them to get active, to speak to people, to participate in in-world demonstrations, to share their stories about racism, about imperialism etc.

Agendas for the next meeting/possible discussions to be organised in the next meeting(suggestions that is):

1. Obama: Change we can believe in? Or change to rejustify U.S. imperialism and to be the smiling face of U.S capitalism?

Given the hype, I think it would be best to atttack this issue head on. I think the article Smoke put up gives plenty of aid in justifications as to why.

2. Global Recession: What is to come and who will pay the price?

Also, this issue has been overlooked by and large in SL politics. And I think it is fundamental that it is tackled and discussed.

3. The Far Left: Understanding the politics.

A proposal for a discussion where members of different Far Left tendencies can discuss what their politics are, from the horses mouth, in a bid to do away with slander of tendencies without foundation.

Forelle Broek said...

Sorry to have missed the meeting. RL commitments have cut back sharply on my SL time, but I'm hoping that will change soon. For the party, which I hope to attend, I think I have some dance balls that I can contribute. And I plan to make a few more t-shirts for the freebie shop. Cheers & Solidarity to all!

Gen. JC Christian, Patriot said...

As far as criticism goes. I think we should force the offender to wear a dunce cap and then parade him down the street to the marketplace for a self-criticism session.

agitprop said...

Abel keeps saying, "no offense intended"?! LOL...

The "history" has been brief, but poignantly laced with adhominem slurs hurled at anyone who disagrees with a "correct analysis" calling for absolute and unquestioning support of Hamas, including whatever tactics they may choose to employ, among other obstreperous errors.

Abel's relentless bid to "do away with" other tendencies "with no basis", by deliberate slanderous dismissal and insults "from the horses mouth", directed at any one who does not adhere to her own pedantic rhetorical SWP splinter line will, no doubt, just be further exercise of the classic splitting techniques for which her tendency is so notorious, worldwide.

For those who have not yet directly experienced this method and style of practice, such debate probably will serve very well to demonstrate it in action, toward a clear "understanding" of why Abel and Red have been ejected from JFPC, by popular demand.

But then, do we really need this?

From someone who has explicitly stated virtually total disagreement with SLLU, it's membership, and it's charter?

Haven't we been through this movie before?

Is not SLLU explicitly intended to move beyond such unprincipled vying for hegemony, and to seek mutual aid, solidarity and cooperation, to eschew such deliberate internecine provocation?

Keitopop said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Abel said...


1. Not once did I say to unconditionally support Hamas. That is a generalising statement with not even an insinuation to back it up.

1a. My exact words were: In public, we should not criticise Hamas as Hamas are the only resisting party in Gaza that is in any way organised, Arabs and Palestinians look to Hamas for leadership against Israel, Hamas have credibility in Palestine for being the only remaining organisation to oppose Israel whole-heartedly.

1b. I remember specifically stating that discussion groups and when talking to individuals is something different and is fine then. I stated that specifically it was about not cutting off the broader Arab and Palestinian potiential membership base.

1c. What I had said in regards to unconditional was this: We should unconditionally support the Palestinians in their struggle. This is not our fight, rather theirs, and if we support them, we have to support them, not slap a whole bundle of ifs and buts beforehand. That should have been fundamental to the group, however, every single other organiser absolutely denied that. Anarchists went on tangents about Nationalism, Ernest and Sol went on tangents about how Hamas are so evil etc.

Do not try to misrepresent my words, you'll only look like a fool.

2. Lets be clear on something. I am not affiliated with the SWP, I am not a member of the SWP, I do not have any ties to the SWP, and I know very little about the SWP organisationally. I reference their articles as their analysis is always quite good, far better than groups like Socialist Unity and the like.

2a. There was never a bid to do away with other tendencies. That is crap being spewed by people trying to justify themselves apolitically. Rather than address the flaws in their politics on an issue they resort to lame claims about being driven out, crying about splits and divisions when it comes down to one very simple thing: Those who ran off with their tail between their legs did so because they could not handle a challenge to their positions, because their positions directly counter-positioned themselves to the broader movement to Free Palestine, and indeed on more than one occasion it was stated that those particular people from those particular tendencies intended to try to break away from the remainded of the movement to perform their own little sectarian reach around.

2b. In regards to splitting techniques and being notorious, this is hardly the case, nor has it any foundation in most places in the world. Yes, there are some Socialist groups that have taken a Sectarian path, but that is not my tendency. My tendency actually involves the opposite. What you are doing is skipping the part that caused the confrontation in the first place, then slapping the split-sticker on my actions knowing that no one will bother to pry. Again, a-political shit spewed by small liberal bastards. The Anarchist tendencies which fell into opposition to me opposed two key points: Organisation outside of one persons authority involving especially muslim, arab and palestinian group members and being a part of the movement rather than separate. Not to mention two of the 'Anarchists' outright opposed the Palestinian flag, and then attempted to claim they had any place in the coalition.

I hate to break it to you, but the moment you denounce the Palestinian flag is the moment you cut yourself off from deserving to speak on their behalf in any way, shape or form. Also, if you want to go right back to what my actual tendency is? The split in the first international was directly caused by conspiratorial acts involving Bakunin and the original Anarchists to seize control over the First International. They believed they could have a centralised workers dictatorship that forbid actions against workers by force. Bakunin recounted his favor for these sorts of politics and his sectarianism after the split, and admitted his wrong doings. So credit where it is due, however, make no mistake, it is not the Marxists who break into sects and split groups.

3. Popular demand within the JFPC does not exist. At best maybe 5 - 10 members opted for our ejection based on our unwavering stance on the groups politics, and our refusal to back down on serious political questions such as what we do and do not support, how we conduct ourselves etc. You should know that there is an equal amount of people that I have on record who agree with me, if not more, not to mention encouragement from others telling me not to give up.

4. In regards to the SLLU, yes, I do disagree with the charter in its practise within the group to certain extents. I do not agree with all of the methods Plot has, or certain other people within the SLLU. I am perfectly justified in having those disagreements. As we can see, many of the small liberal moderates, most of whom could not even be considered left wing, and many of whom support wars such as the war on Gaza, many of whom support the 'right' for an Apartheid state to exist, many of whom advocate U.S Imperialism at nearly every turn as being okay, have gotten quite comfortable within the SLLU. They do not get challenged on their ideas, they do not participate in much of the activity, they do not even bother to read the bloody notices. My opposition to such a thing is not unjust, and nor is it wrong.

In regards to 'vying for hegemony.' There is no such thing. I do not aim to seize hegemony in the SLLU. I do not aim for control over left groups such as the SLLU or the JFPC. However, I do not agree to the idea of keeping my mouth shut and my hands behind my back. I do not participate in political events and debates for fun, I participate in them to offer an alternative to the clap-trap (imo) that is thrown around 90% of the time, the purpose of my intervening in any situation is solely to show people the politics of Socialism as best I can, to convince them that the way to change the world is not through a black president, but through the massive social power of the world's working class.

Now I will finish this rather longwinded response up.

Anarchism is commendable only so far as its adherants are. And more often than not, Anarchism fails in multiple places. Especially on the issue of sectarianism and the way forward for movements.

This is a political criticism, take it as such and prove me wrong if you can.

Anarchism has a tendency to try to steer movements into its very narrow minded views, rather than harness the already apparent social power of the audience they have. Anarchism has a tendency if it is unable to do such a thing, to break off from the movement - i.e. become sectarian.

Where Socialists have intervened and been a part of nearly every mass struggle in the 20th century, Anarchists have sidelined themselves.

Even as recently as Greece, whilst the mass movement there evolved and began to assert its social power - i.e. general strikes, occupations, sit ins etc, the Greek Anarchists were still rioting as if they were chickens missing their heads. The Anarchists were also the first to withdraw forces from the occupation of Universities.

And what has happened as a result? Nothing. Though the movement persists, it is substantially less organised than it could have been provided the Anarchists had addressed and participated in a beneficial way to the movement. What is going on now is a stagnation of that movement, one which reinforces how and why Anarchists should not lead movements.

Again, that is a political criticism. If you cannot handle political criticisms, drop out of politics. I have taken more than my far share of bogus criticism from Anarchists in the SLLU etc, and I have held my own against it. Its time you all learned to hold your own against mine.

SLLU, the Left in general, are not a stagnate bunch, they are not isolated in pockets of tendencies. They clash. They come to a front with each other as the political questions become more and more vital, especially now given Imperialism is in again, given the global recession and market crashes, given the broad spectrum working class resistance that is building up.

It is time people stop making excuses to avoid these things and begin to participate. And if you take an objectional stance, it is only right that you be forced to defend that stance politically, not through slander.

And yes, I understand that I am rude. And I understand that I have said things that were not particularly warranted or welcomed.

I'm guessing you are Gilles, so I'll for real, say one last thing. You lack substance. You followed the crowd, and you cannot even argue concrete points against me. As an Anarchist, you should especially be opposed to Sol's seizure of authority over the JFPC, particularly since she seized it against the majority's wishes.

Then again, I do not think of you particularly as an Anarchist regardless. Anarchists tend to have substantially better politics than you have displayed. I will not assume that you represent the Anarchist tendencies in SL. God help them if you do.