CHAT LOG
Present: Plot Tracer; Agnes Sharples; Trill Zapatero; LolaRennt Blanco; Sioux Nikolaidis; Chelsea Louloudi; Celia Bedrosian; Agripina Bernheim; Sophiekittycat Resident; josjoha Resident; Eupalinos Ugajin; Kanomi Pikajuna
SLLU discussion:
"How workers of the third world are being exploited and are working their asses off for us western people to have our comfort"
in The Red Star Bar Thursday 21st April
[2011/04/21 07:05] Agnes Sharple: a good example is the flower industry
[2011/04/21 07:06] Agnes Sharple: 1 sec and ill get some links
[2011/04/21 07:08] Agnes Sharple: http://www.laborrights.org/rights-for-working-women/news/11365
[2011/04/21 07:08] Agnes Sharple: http://www.newsfromafrica.org/newsfromafrica/articles/art_882.html
[2011/04/21 07:09] Agnes Sharple: these are just examples, its not only the flower industry
[2011/04/21 07:09] Agnes Sharple: so...any thoughts on this?
[2011/04/21 07:10] Plot Tracer: Does anyone think that this kind of exploitation is exclusive to the 2/3rds world?
[2011/04/21 07:10] Sophiekittycat Resident: your links are mainly on women conditions which are already another big problem
[2011/04/21 07:10] Agnes Sharple: well, yes, women do 60% of the work in the world or more
[2011/04/21 07:11] Agnes Sharple: but those are just links as examples
[2011/04/21 07:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: i think this debat will glue in 30 years old clichés , now capitalism is global, chineses exploit africa and chises workers, biggest mining company is brazilian
[2011/04/21 07:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: indians not need us to exploit their own workers
[2011/04/21 07:11] Chelsea Louloudi: well, I don't think it's as much about our comfort as the bottom lines of the exploiters
[2011/04/21 07:11] Sophiekittycat Resident: situation of workers in occidental countries is worsening and not for workers confort but for corporations profits
[2011/04/21 07:12] Sophiekittycat Resident: the time that occident was getting confort from exploitation is behind now we are in a time that international capitalism exploit third world for profit only
[2011/04/21 07:12] Sophiekittycat Resident: us from occident are no more involved for our comfort
[2011/04/21 07:12] LolaRennt Blanco: right
[2011/04/21 07:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: third world exploit itself as good that we done and still do it
[2011/04/21 07:14] Plot Tracer: Here in the UK, low paid workers live in poverty. And it is a poverty without hope. (from a website) Ironically, most of the very lowest-paid workers are performing jobs which are absolutely vital to the smooth running of our society: carers, childminders, workers providing services such as cleaning and catering, and the retail workers who enable better-off workers to fuel our economy by spending disposable income.
[2011/04/21 07:14] Plot Tracer: http://www.cpag.org.uk/info/Povertyarticles/Poverty122/lowpaid.htm
[2011/04/21 07:14] Agripina Bernheim: Well,basically we are all facing many hours of hard work and low pay, not just tHIRD wORLD COUNTRIES
[2011/04/21 07:15] Agnes Sharple: let me give an example related to the flower industry and a discussion i had due to IWD, it seems like a lot of women are expecting their partners to give them flowers that day and other presents, this has become more and more common in my country and in Italy and Russia IWD has turned out to be a prty and present day for women, which is okey, sort of, but the ironic in this is that the roses these women expect their partners to buy them are cut by women and men in for expl Columbia and Nairobi
[2011/04/21 07:15] Agripina Bernheim: With the globalization, even stable economies are now suffering
[2011/04/21 07:15] Plot Tracer: But i feel the struggle in countries that have been stripped of their assets by Western corporations is a harder struggle against poverty. especially when you read that in some African nations, the option of prostitution is the best payer for young women.
[2011/04/21 07:16] Trill Zapatero: (
[2011/04/21 07:16] Plot Tracer: or that education is out of the question for people when they have to pay for this.
[2011/04/21 07:16] Agnes Sharple: also, in my country most production are sent out, to like eastern europe, china and other countries
[2011/04/21 07:16] Sophiekittycat Resident: africans rulers actually are the real problem for their countries
[2011/04/21 07:16] Agnes Sharple: to make it cheap for4 us to produce
[2011/04/21 07:17] Plot Tracer: we in the west have, i suppose, at least the option of education and some welfare. In many [places this is not an option
[2011/04/21 07:17] Trill Zapatero: the rulers that ally up with the west
[2011/04/21 07:17] Agnes Sharple: yes Plot
[2011/04/21 07:17] Agripina Bernheim: The rise in homeless jobless people is rising in the USA too
[2011/04/21 07:18] Chelsea Louloudi: yes trill, and easy for corps to buy
[2011/04/21 07:18] Sophiekittycat Resident: we should no more talk of the west , all is ruled by the corporations which are even from india from brazil from china, the power and problem is not western goverments it is the rule power of corporations what ever their country
[2011/04/21 07:18] Agnes Sharple: yes it is Agripina
[2011/04/21 07:18] Trill Zapatero: yeah, they're mulitnationals
[2011/04/21 07:18] Trill Zapatero: without country
[2011/04/21 07:18] Agripina Bernheim: not individual countries are so much the problem, it is the mega corporations that have the most control
[2011/04/21 07:18] Agnes Sharple: yep corporational power
[2011/04/21 07:19] Sophiekittycat Resident: at blaming always us people from teh west we give excuses to corporations, to african dictators, to chinese brazilians corporations
[2011/04/21 07:19] LolaRennt Blanco: right
[2011/04/21 07:19] Agnes Sharple: capitalism
[2011/04/21 07:19] LolaRennt Blanco: globalización
[2011/04/21 07:19] Plot Tracer: well - capital has the option of going anywhere. Money is free. Workers are not. People are restricted in movement in order to feed the corporations - in order to ensure they can be exploited.
[2011/04/21 07:19] Chelsea Louloudi: our governments are lobbied by these people...that's why we don't get listened to either.
[2011/04/21 07:19] Plot Tracer: yes chelsea
[2011/04/21 07:19] Trill Zapatero: as dissidents, in the west, though, we probably are in the best position to do something about it
[2011/04/21 07:19] Sioux Nikolaidis: the equation is easy, in my view: money=no equity
[2011/04/21 07:20] Trill Zapatero: we probably have more leisure time
[2011/04/21 07:20] Trill Zapatero: youthink?
[2011/04/21 07:20] Sophiekittycat Resident: money is a tool just a tool, the problem is not money
[2011/04/21 07:20] Sioux Nikolaidis: I understand Soph: still, can't see the use of such a tool
[2011/04/21 07:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: boycotts of bad products , promoting farms and products done in third world respecting nature and people, promoting women equality and denying children work is the solution
[2011/04/21 07:21] Sophiekittycat Resident: at still talking as the communist party 30 years ago we will continue to be useless: solution would be citizens lobbying but us we preffer to never be united
[2011/04/21 07:23] Sioux Nikolaidis: what we are facing now is over productio: we produce way more than what we are expected to absorbe... there can't be no equity in such system, in my view... we can improve, sure, but there will always be tragedies in this system, imho
[2011/04/21 07:23] Trill Zapatero: well, education is hugely important, people need to know exactly which products we buy are produced withunfair labour practices
[2011/04/21 07:23] Plot Tracer: yes Trill
[2011/04/21 07:23] Sioux Nikolaidis: I guess the problem is not in a "bad product" but in the reason why that product is produced
[2011/04/21 07:24] josjoha Resident: i disagree
[2011/04/21 07:24] LolaRennt Blanco: but is a fact, in Mexico no one wants to keep studying, they are like zombies working for the boss
[2011/04/21 07:25] Plot Tracer: Sioux- tho the system MUST change. When you read that for everyone on the earth to live as a middleclass person in the US we wold need 7 planets, you can see this cannot continue as it is anylonger. (for everyone in the world to live as a middle class scottish person we would need 4 planets - i am in scotland)
[2011/04/21 07:25] Agnes Sharple: right Plot
[2011/04/21 07:25] LolaRennt Blanco: middleclass person, it is over, at least here in Mexico
[2011/04/21 07:25] LolaRennt Blanco: is stinguissh
[2011/04/21 07:25] pixel Reanimator is Online
[2011/04/21 07:25] Sophiekittycat Resident: the system but too the way to product things, we can live as middle class on all planet but actually production is done in the dirtier and cheapest way
[2011/04/21 07:26] Sophiekittycat Resident: there is no need to come back to cave age
[2011/04/21 07:26] LolaRennt Blanco: right
[2011/04/21 07:26] Plot Tracer: social mobility has come to an end in the UK as well
[2011/04/21 07:27] josjoha Resident: the problem with a planeconomy is that it does not work for very large groups
[2011/04/21 07:27] Sioux Nikolaidis: my perception is that what's happening is a continous lowering of standards... I think soon most of the western world will settle for a job with no rights and very low income... that allows the system to never be worried about the level of resources used... it's like having nobles...
[2011/04/21 07:27] Sophiekittycat Resident: we dont need to elave an extrem for another, leaving capitalism for staline is not great
[2011/04/21 07:28] Sioux Nikolaidis: I actually think that the extreme is wanting the money, not wanting to get rid of it...
[2011/04/21 07:28] Agripina Bernheim: true but we need work together
[2011/04/21 07:28] Agripina Bernheim: Sioux is right
[2011/04/21 07:28] josjoha Resident: money is ok as a medium of exchange
[2011/04/21 07:28] Trill Zapatero: how to stop people from being greedy
[2011/04/21 07:28] Sophiekittycat Resident: the system cant continue as, workers in occident are paid less and less, work go to third world to produce cheap, but as unnemployemnt in west rise, one day the west wiill no more be able to buy what is produced
[2011/04/21 07:29] Agripina Bernheim: Money is necessary
[2011/04/21 07:29] Plot Tracer: Growth is the word the marketeers use. Sustainability is what we need to achieve... or we die.
[2011/04/21 07:29] Chelsea Louloudi: Sophie, that is just around the corner.....the way things are now isn't sustainable
[2011/04/21 07:29] Agnes Sharple: yes we need to unfuck it all pretty soon hehe
[2011/04/21 07:30] Sioux Nikolaidis: I can't see how money are necessary...
[2011/04/21 07:30] Sophiekittycat Resident: speculation, economical lobbying, politic power with less and less power are what allow market to rule and idiocy of people who think that economy is holly
[2011/04/21 07:30] Chelsea Louloudi: lol Agnes
[2011/04/21 07:30] Agripina Bernheim: Sustainability also of the environment, the food we produce, smart planning in every aspect of food growth and harvesting
[2011/04/21 07:30] josjoha Resident: sioux, when you have a swap system you rarely have exactly what the other wants
[2011/04/21 07:30] Plot Tracer: Growth (or as Dr Seuss called it, "Biggering and biggering and BIGGERING!") leads to all of the truffula trees and the eco system that relies on them, dying. this is what is happening.
[2011/04/21 07:30] Sioux Nikolaidis: I'm not considering swap
[2011/04/21 07:30] Trill Zapatero: it's some kind of hoarding mentality
[2011/04/21 07:30] josjoha Resident: money is not necessary in a small tribe of up to several hundred to thousand
[2011/04/21 07:30] Plot Tracer: lets all unfuckitup!
[2011/04/21 07:31] Trill Zapatero: some horrible fear of future lack
[2011/04/21 07:31] Trill Zapatero: unfuckitup
[2011/04/21 07:31] Agnes Sharple: :D
[2011/04/21 07:31] Plot Tracer: http://youtu.be/Sdn3O6aaMNc
[2011/04/21 07:31] Trill Zapatero: it's some huge paradign shift that we need
[2011/04/21 07:31] josjoha Resident: if anyone cares, i've worked very hard on a new system
[2011/04/21 07:32] Agnes Sharple: what kind of system Josj?
[2011/04/21 07:32] Trill Zapatero: but so many poor people and semipoor people, all believe that some day they too will be rich, so they side with the rich
[2011/04/21 07:32] Agnes Sharple: jeez
[2011/04/21 07:32] josjoha Resident: real democracy, in Government and economics
[2011/04/21 07:33] Takni Miklos is Offline
[2011/04/21 07:33] Agripina Bernheim: No I do not think that is the case
[2011/04/21 07:33] Agnes Sharple: oh interesting!
[2011/04/21 07:33] josjoha Resident: it has 4 basic points: 1. true national Government, 2. companies become democracy of labor that works there in a free market context, 3. finance is socialized (not a free market), 4. the land is distributed to each his share.
[2011/04/21 07:33] LolaRennt Blanco: if we have corruption we cannot have democracy
[2011/04/21 07:33] Agnes Sharple: hmm
[2011/04/21 07:33] Agripina Bernheim: Listen to me here, I come from germany, I was indoctinated after the war
[2011/04/21 07:33] josjoha Resident: i made a 239 laws counting Constitution for that, and made 9 roads of revolution to implement it - and i have it right here of course in a 58 page SL book
[2011/04/21 07:33] josjoha Resident: just saying, that's all
[2011/04/21 07:34] Sophiekittycat Resident: democracy works only if people are nort egoist and are educated, true democracy is perhaps the worst system if people are not educated,
[2011/04/21 07:34] Trill Zapatero: cool
[2011/04/21 07:34] Plot Tracer: cool. pass that on to me jos - perhaps we can use it as the basis for another discussion another time :)
[2011/04/21 07:34] Agripina Bernheim: If people have no jobs, no food to feed their family, they could not care less about governemnt, they will follow someone who promises them a living
[2011/04/21 07:34] Chelsea Louloudi: jos...free trade or fair trade?
[2011/04/21 07:34] josjoha Resident: ty trill
[2011/04/21 07:34] josjoha Resident: okay
[2011/04/21 07:34] Agripina Bernheim: that is all that matters at that moment
[2011/04/21 07:34] Agnes Sharple: yes Agripina
[2011/04/21 07:34] josjoha Resident: fair trade is the ideal but it can't be forced so in legal terms its free trade
[2011/04/21 07:35] josjoha Resident: BUT not in land, high finance, company ownership or land
[2011/04/21 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: democracy as defined by benjamin franklin it is two wolves and a lamb deciding what it will be at dinner
[2011/04/21 07:35] josjoha Resident: neither in slavery (but we largely have that already as a law)
[2011/04/21 07:35] Agripina Bernheim: when you have your child dying in your arms from lack of food or disease and no money
[2011/04/21 07:35] josjoha Resident: Benjamin was wrong
[2011/04/21 07:35] josjoha Resident: democracy is 2 sheep voting to lock up the wolve
[2011/04/21 07:35] Sophiekittycat Resident: he was right , people are not generous, most are not educated, most are egoists
[2011/04/21 07:35] Chelsea Louloudi: then, I don't see anything different. free trade is US dumping corn in Mexico as we speak
[2011/04/21 07:36] Sophiekittycat Resident: and a lot are racist
[2011/04/21 07:36] josjoha Resident: if tehy are egoists they'll live in badly run nations according to what they deserve
[2011/04/21 07:36] LolaRennt Blanco: right
[2011/04/21 07:36] Trill Zapatero: why are humans so horrible
[2011/04/21 07:36] Agripina Bernheim: look at us in SL what we learn here we need to take outside of here and live it
[2011/04/21 07:36] Agripina Bernheim: it can be done slowly
[2011/04/21 07:37] Sioux Nikolaidis: I don't think humans are horrible: I think what's horrible is the society produced by our system
[2011/04/21 07:37] josjoha Resident: humans are horrible because their instinct falsely tells them war is survival, because that's what monkeys have to do
[2011/04/21 07:37] LolaRennt Blanco: be right back, I need a meicine
[2011/04/21 07:37] Agripina Bernheim: War is not survival
[2011/04/21 07:37] LolaRennt Blanco: medicine*
[2011/04/21 07:37] Sophiekittycat Resident: because too smart greedy people lead too often uneducated egoist ones to war to misery
[2011/04/21 07:37] Chelsea Louloudi: jos, ordinary people have no say in wars
[2011/04/21 07:37] josjoha Resident: war is extinction
[2011/04/21 07:37] Agnes Sharple: i think humans are horrible because they consider themselfs masters of the world, the upper sivilized creatures
[2011/04/21 07:38] josjoha Resident: i also mean simple wars like backstabbing at teh office
[2011/04/21 07:38] josjoha Resident gave you Revolution and Reform.
[2011/04/21 07:38] Agripina Bernheim: I know, but that is a choice, an upbringing
[2011/04/21 07:38] Trill Zapatero: so how do we like get past the fear and fight mentality?
[2011/04/21 07:38] Agripina Bernheim: when parents raise their children right it makes a difference
[2011/04/21 07:39] Sioux Nikolaidis: again, I think wars and atrocities are produced by the system, not inherently built-into men...
[2011/04/21 07:39] Sophiekittycat Resident: education, and a state with rules to protect minority, rules to control economy but allow people freedom to do and think, republique is better than democracy
[2011/04/21 07:39] Agnes Sharple: noty only that, education is a key and so is the society
[2011/04/21 07:39] josjoha Resident: the system allows a ruling class to emerge
[2011/04/21 07:39] josjoha Resident: and that class then produces wars and moral degradation imho
[2011/04/21 07:39] Agripina Bernheim: but when parents are too worn out from work and daily drudge it becomes harder to do the right thing in raising kids and and setting the right example
[2011/04/21 07:40] Sophiekittycat Resident: there will be always a rulling class, the need is to prevent the ruling class to own all
[2011/04/21 07:40] josjoha Resident: i don't think education is key
[2011/04/21 07:40] Trill Zapatero: no?
[2011/04/21 07:40] Agnes Sharple: why not?
[2011/04/21 07:40] Agripina Bernheim: It all has to work together, education, parenting, gowernment
[2011/04/21 07:40] josjoha Resident: what do you want to educate them in ? i'd say a little knowledge about how things work is enough
[2011/04/21 07:41] Agnes Sharple: really?
[2011/04/21 07:41] Sioux Nikolaidis: I think that we still think in terms of "power structures": we know for CERTAIN that there is corruption wherever ther is power.. .simply, we have to get rid of those structures...
[2011/04/21 07:41] Agripina Bernheim: education without morals does not work
[2011/04/21 07:41] Trill Zapatero: yeah but they need to believe you
[2011/04/21 07:41] josjoha Resident: i think power-ditsribution is the key
[2011/04/21 07:41] Celia Bedrosian: education is step 2, and therefore not the 'key' imo
[2011/04/21 07:41] Trill Zapatero: motivation
[2011/04/21 07:41] Agnes Sharple: fuck power
[2011/04/21 07:41] josjoha Resident: i agree Sioux, we get rid of them by replacing them with something that works
[2011/04/21 07:42] Agripina Bernheim: motivation has to have a basis
[2011/04/21 07:42] Agnes Sharple: hi*
[2011/04/21 07:42] Agripina Bernheim: why work yourself to death for someone else
[2011/04/21 07:42] Plot Tracer: Agnes -I so agree about Education. But in the west, education is slowly being taken from the working class. the ruling class, I think, have feared the rise of the educated working class and they are in the process of attacking it. There is nothing more dangerous than an educated large working/underclass (i hate that word)
[2011/04/21 07:42] Sophiekittycat Resident: power distribution cant eb done without education
[2011/04/21 07:42] Agripina Bernheim: right
[2011/04/21 07:42] josjoha Resident: compared to 150 years ago, we're all highly educated now already, so we should now be able to use that and fix things
[2011/04/21 07:42] Plot Tracer: i dont agree jo
[2011/04/21 07:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: education is the most important thing, if you give power to idiots or give to smart people to rule idiots it change nothing
[2011/04/21 07:43] Celia Bedrosian: i agree, josjoha
[2011/04/21 07:43] josjoha Resident: and we have spare time & resources - past generations fought for that and now we have it it's now up to us to make it
[2011/04/21 07:43] Agnes Sharple: one can never be too educated
[2011/04/21 07:43] Chelsea Louloudi: we're also highly propagandised
[2011/04/21 07:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: most population education is to know how to write and to do numbers i dont call it education,
[2011/04/21 07:43] Agnes Sharple: but one also needs practical experience of course
[2011/04/21 07:43] Agripina Bernheim: We are not that educated when compared to amount of technology out there we need to know
[2011/04/21 07:43] josjoha Resident: i believe its perfectly fine if teh ppl want to make idiots have power, as long as they can take that power away again any moment etc
[2011/04/21 07:43] josjoha Resident: the ppl's right to make mistakes
[2011/04/21 07:43] Sophiekittycat Resident: true education is to know how to think on society to know history and things that make our world to be what it is
[2011/04/21 07:44] Plot Tracer: I think our education system is churning out "workers". Look at the emphasis on economics and degrees like accountancy? And the attack on the arts and "critical thinking" qualifications. the fear of the right and the rich is that the workers learn to think.
[2011/04/21 07:44] Sophiekittycat Resident: to just know to read is not great education, to know to think is another education
[2011/04/21 07:44] Plot Tracer: education sooo much is focussed on facts. not teaching how to think
[2011/04/21 07:44] Agripina Bernheim: Sophie you are so right
[2011/04/21 07:44] Plot Tracer: yes sophie
[2011/04/21 07:44] Sioux Nikolaidis: sorry afk for a while
[2011/04/21 07:44] josjoha Resident: i'm afraid you want to 'teach' ppl to be 'moral' but i don't think that's either possible or desireable
[2011/04/21 07:45] Agripina Bernheim: yes it is possible
[2011/04/21 07:45] josjoha Resident: ppl who want to be evil make that choice and we're at war with them, simple
[2011/04/21 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: not desirable ? what do you want an elite ruling robots workers ?
[2011/04/21 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: who is being evil ?
[2011/04/21 07:45] josjoha Resident: no i fear that 'teaching system' will be that ruling elite
[2011/04/21 07:45] Agripina Bernheim: It takes time to teach morals and survival sklills as well as the ability to think
[2011/04/21 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: sorry evil is different depnding of our cultures
[2011/04/21 07:45] Agnes Sharple: a dramatic change is needed in our educational model and i think we should spend a lot of efford and money on that, to make the coming generations grow up to be smarter and more wise than us, hopefullt, i think its absolutely possible
[2011/04/21 07:45] Agripina Bernheim: but without thosde we have chaos
[2011/04/21 07:45] Sophiekittycat Resident: in usa a slipping nipple is evil, in europe to have guns is evil
[2011/04/21 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: what is evil ?
[2011/04/21 07:46] Sophiekittycat Resident: in arabia saudia a thinking woman is evil
[2011/04/21 07:46] josjoha Resident: i think all we need is academia doing its job on how economics works, and that should yield the rational system which is the best ppl can do now
[2011/04/21 07:46] Agnes Sharple: i think its more important to teach ppl empathy :)
[2011/04/21 07:47] Sophiekittycat Resident: people at service of economy ? a giant corporation state with only goal economy ?
[2011/04/21 07:47] josjoha Resident: but they don't do their job so its up to us
[2011/04/21 07:47] Trill Zapatero: yes
[2011/04/21 07:47] Trill Zapatero: how do you teach empathy
[2011/04/21 07:47] Trill Zapatero: gawd
[2011/04/21 07:47] Trill Zapatero: enpathology
[2011/04/21 07:47] LolaRennt Blanco: :D
[2011/04/21 07:47] Plot Tracer: well
[2011/04/21 07:47] josjoha Resident: it's all quite complex in my opinion, and therefore we're not easily going to get somewhere
[2011/04/21 07:47] Agripina Bernheim: thaT IS EASY
[2011/04/21 07:48] Plot Tracer: one of the huge things that imho leads to acceptance of violence towards each other is the simple example of hitting kids.
[2011/04/21 07:48] Trill Zapatero: get a degree and career in empathology
[2011/04/21 07:48] Agnes Sharple: and no more teaching in religion, instead theyll have philosophy and etics
[2011/04/21 07:48] Agnes Sharple: yay Trill!
[2011/04/21 07:49] Agripina Bernheim: IF YOU TEACH A CHILD TO EXPRESS WHAT THEY WOULD FEEL IN DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEN EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT SOMEONE ELSE FEELS THAT TOO WHEN THIS HAPPENS
[2011/04/21 07:49] Trill Zapatero: religion usualy sucks
[2011/04/21 07:49] josjoha Resident: and the wars the bosses wage causes violence down the pyramid of this failed society
[2011/04/21 07:49] Celia Bedrosian: i agree Agnes
[2011/04/21 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: agnes which ethic ? which philosophy is then respectable ? european american asian ?
[2011/04/21 07:49] Keithunder Graves is Online
[2011/04/21 07:49] josjoha Resident: there is a lot to improve in the system, for example denying politicians the right to lie
[2011/04/21 07:49] Trill Zapatero: how do you get people to stop wanting to stick their head in the sand
[2011/04/21 07:49] Sophiekittycat Resident: if we begin to say what is good what is evil we became dictators we create 1984 of georges orwell or a best world of aldous huxley
[2011/04/21 07:49] josjoha Resident: once you improve the system the individuals also improve - directly improving individuals is always being tried and its very hard
[2011/04/21 07:50] Plot Tracer: the weakest and most susceptible impressionable people in our society are hit if they do the "wrong thing." how fucked up is that? what does that seem to a kids mind? "To make me conform i must be hit."
[2011/04/21 07:50] Trill Zapatero: I'm hoping change comes from the ground up
[2011/04/21 07:50] josjoha Resident: how do you stop a politician from lying: passing laws against that, etc - shouldn't even be too hard ?
[2011/04/21 07:50] Trill Zapatero: there's more hope down here at the bottom, more natural motivation
[2011/04/21 07:50] Plot Tracer: Do you think a loved child could have tortured those people in Abu Ghraib?
[2011/04/21 07:50] josjoha Resident: not keeping promises i mean (caling that lying)
[2011/04/21 07:50] Agnes Sharple: "freedom is not worth having if it doesnt include the freedom to make mistakes"
[2011/04/21 07:50] Trill Zapatero: goooooooood point
[2011/04/21 07:50] Agnes Sharple: who said that actually? gandhi?
[2011/04/21 07:50] Agripina Bernheim: NO i DO NOT
[2011/04/21 07:50] Agripina Bernheim: sorry caps
[2011/04/21 07:51] Plot Tracer: yes agnes
[2011/04/21 07:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: how we stop politicians to be bad, by having citizens who know when to vote when to say no, to not vote again for a politician who failed, we need educated citizens,
[2011/04/21 07:51] Trill Zapatero: so 'love' is the answer
[2011/04/21 07:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: if we have bad politicians it is that we have bad citizens
[2011/04/21 07:51] Trill Zapatero: I totally believe that, if there is an answer it' just that
[2011/04/21 07:51] Agripina Bernheim: a big part of the answer
[2011/04/21 07:51] josjoha Resident: sophie, how about a system where you don't vote with millions for one, but with only 50 for 1 ?
[2011/04/21 07:51] josjoha Resident: so that you really know your delegate ?
[2011/04/21 07:51] Sophiekittycat Resident: we have the politicians we elected, we are the guilty ones
[2011/04/21 07:52] Agnes Sharple: no, we dont really have the politicians we elected
[2011/04/21 07:52] josjoha Resident: and you can replace that delegate any moment, through proper procedure ?
[2011/04/21 07:52] Sophiekittycat Resident: what do you mean 50 rich who vote for a richer ?
[2011/04/21 07:52] Chelsea Louloudi: plot, torturers are usually control freaks from childhood ..... quite likely threatening their parents..not the other way around
[2011/04/21 07:52] Trill Zapatero: I read somewhere that we have more vote power when we go shopping
[2011/04/21 07:52] Trill Zapatero: how we shop
[2011/04/21 07:52] josjoha Resident: sophie, why do you think i mean rich ? of course not
[2011/04/21 07:52] Agnes Sharple: jeez Trill, that is sooo sad
[2011/04/21 07:52] Agnes Sharple: that is fucked up!
[2011/04/21 07:52] Trill Zapatero: well, not really
[2011/04/21 07:52] josjoha Resident: power of shopping is great
[2011/04/21 07:53] Agnes Sharple: it is?
[2011/04/21 07:53] josjoha Resident: how ppl shop shows they want bad things, then again it's hard to know everything about what you buy
[2011/04/21 07:53] Trill Zapatero: sorry, I have zero faith in political systems
[2011/04/21 07:53] LolaRennt Blanco: so do I
[2011/04/21 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: if it is to replace economical dictature by a mind dictature , better to stop to live :)
[2011/04/21 07:53] josjoha Resident: so then we live without law ?
[2011/04/21 07:53] Sophiekittycat Resident: political systems are our creations we vote if we vote bad is our fault
[2011/04/21 07:54] josjoha Resident: without communication & any common decisions ?
[2011/04/21 07:54] Trill Zapatero: but what are our options in elections
[2011/04/21 07:54] Trill Zapatero: I mean who are those freaks they give us to vote for
[2011/04/21 07:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: we need laws of course we need rules but we will not go from an extrem to an other
[2011/04/21 07:54] LolaRennt Blanco: freaks
[2011/04/21 07:54] josjoha Resident: that's why i'm asking: why not vote with 50 persons
[2011/04/21 07:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: in france we got the terror once, trust me once was enougth
[2011/04/21 07:54] josjoha Resident: not in the entire nation of course, but ten of thousands of groups of 50
[2011/04/21 07:54] Sophiekittycat Resident: who are theses 50 ?
[2011/04/21 07:55] josjoha Resident: you
[2011/04/21 07:55] josjoha Resident: here we are with about 15 ? so we need 35 more
[2011/04/21 07:55] Sophiekittycat Resident: i dont understand what you eman joshua sorry my english is bad
[2011/04/21 07:55] josjoha Resident: this way about 1% of the population becomes a delegate
[2011/04/21 07:55] Sophiekittycat Resident: mean oops
[2011/04/21 07:56] josjoha Resident: form a group with 50 in your street or what you like, elect someone to run the election, elect a delegate
[2011/04/21 07:56] josjoha Resident: these delegates form councils
[2011/04/21 07:56] Agnes Sharple: ah
[2011/04/21 07:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: dictature of the mass ? impossibility to do decisions, people talking on subjects they dont know? and when a mass vote usually it is never with morality and ethic
[2011/04/21 07:56] josjoha Resident: and to form larger councils they re-group and elect someone per delegates-group; that works up to the national government
[2011/04/21 07:56] Sophiekittycat Resident: sucha system without people with morality of angel and education , it will be an hell
[2011/04/21 07:57] josjoha Resident: then it's hell the nation deserves
[2011/04/21 07:57] josjoha Resident: your argument is the same as themonarchist used
[2011/04/21 07:57] josjoha Resident: 'we need the wise men in power, who are also rich, and they will make the wise decinions for the ignorant masses'
[2011/04/21 07:57] Sophiekittycat Resident: i am atenant of republic system, a contract between nation and citizens
[2011/04/21 07:57] josjoha Resident: i say let the masses make ignorant decisions that's fine, if its wrong they'll learn a lot
[2011/04/21 07:58] Sophiekittycat Resident: the day we will focus on educating people we will have achance
[2011/04/21 07:58] josjoha Resident: and the masses will appoint delegates who will be primarily involved, so that's already a 1% of the ppl rather then 100% about every detail
[2011/04/21 07:58] josjoha Resident: educate them in what ?
[2011/04/21 07:59] josjoha Resident: note how things are lots better then 150 years ago, because of democracy
[2011/04/21 07:59] josjoha Resident: bu it needs to be a lot better still, so we need even better democracy
[2011/04/21 07:59] Agnes Sharple: to grow up and be responsible reasonable councious ppl :)
[2011/04/21 07:59] Sophiekittycat Resident: in being citizens not just people who need their tv show
[2011/04/21 07:59] Agnes Sharple: and to respect and love others
[2011/04/21 08:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: agnes it is perhaps too much to ask to someone,
[2011/04/21 08:00] Sophiekittycat Resident: ;)
[2011/04/21 08:00] Trill Zapatero: well love is kind of contagious I think
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: it's the kind of thing that could be a grassroots movement
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: like a secret society
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: underground love movement
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: hahaha
[2011/04/21 08:01] Agnes Sharple: :))
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: fuck I'm hoaky
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: woo
[2011/04/21 08:01] Trill Zapatero: Imean it though
[2011/04/21 08:01] Agnes Sharple: unfuck :P
[2011/04/21 08:01] Eupalinos Ugajin: hmm I was abused so... someone sold me this as an Ubik spray can
[2011/04/21 08:02] Trill Zapatero: what's a Ubik spray can?
[2011/04/21 08:02] Kanomi Pikajuna: Philip K. Dick item :)
[2011/04/21 08:03] Sophiekittycat Resident: if it is from k dick mind it is then scary, i know ubik book
[2011/04/21 08:03] Eupalinos Ugajin: must read book :)
[2011/04/21 08:03] josjoha Resident: we can wait & do nothing, but WW3 is coming so better get active already ... i'm afraid the ruling class will organize WW3 to get rid of all democracy and rights
[2011/04/21 08:03] Plot Tracer: ok - back to the topic. what about exploitation - what can we as INDIVIDUALS do about low paid and exploited workers where-ever they are?
[2011/04/21 08:03] Sophiekittycat Resident: i dont want to touch the spray can
[2011/04/21 08:03] Agnes Sharple: oh well
[2011/04/21 08:04] Trill Zapatero: stop buying stuff
[2011/04/21 08:04] Trill Zapatero: for one
[2011/04/21 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: as individuals,, we can promote boycotts of products coming from exploitation, we can do protestation votes at elections,
[2011/04/21 08:04] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can be true citizens
[2011/04/21 08:04] josjoha Resident: the exploited people will have to organize, overthrow who is against them with arms, install a better system
[2011/04/21 08:04] Agnes Sharple: I`m not sure what to do, i mean by boycotting stuff, the workers will have no work at all
[2011/04/21 08:04] josjoha Resident: as individuals we can show them how that could be done
[2011/04/21 08:04] Celia Bedrosian: it's all not enough
[2011/04/21 08:05] Agripina Bernheim: I am sorry but I shall have to leave
[2011/04/21 08:05] Celia Bedrosian: take care Agripina
[2011/04/21 08:05] Chelsea Louloudi: jos, what arms? rocks?
[2011/04/21 08:05] Agnes Sharple: bye Agripina! great to see you:)
[2011/04/21 08:05] LolaRennt Blanco: bye Agripina
[2011/04/21 08:05] Sophiekittycat Resident: agnes they will suffer the time of the boycotts as workers suffer while a strike, but if we can make that they have better life , isnt it worth it ?
[2011/04/21 08:05] josjoha Resident: sophie i agree and we can pass laws to have a tarrif on goods/services that where made under unacceptable conditions
[2011/04/21 08:05] Chelsea Louloudi: however people in places like Bolivia have shown it can be done...they rise up often
[2011/04/21 08:06] josjoha Resident: if you rise up properly you've a high chance much of the military & police is already on your side
[2011/04/21 08:06] Agnes Sharple: yes of course, but im not sure a boicott is the right thing, it can be, but idk really
[2011/04/21 08:06] josjoha Resident: if not, we the people have near endless bodies
[2011/04/21 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: as citizens we can post on the net in medias each time it is possible proofs that a product is done by exploitation
[2011/04/21 08:06] Plot Tracer: yes agnes - boycotts sometimes hit the poor and vulnerable the hardest... but- perhaps boycotts also ensures labour goes to industries and services that are valuable? perhaps it is about values? who buys "Hello or OK" magazines? who pays Murdoch for their TV and internet to have the detritus of consumerism thrown back at them to make them envy and think they need the latest i-eggtimer?
[2011/04/21 08:06] Sophiekittycat Resident: we need to do all that companies using exploitation end with a terrible image
[2011/04/21 08:07] Trill Zapatero: yes
[2011/04/21 08:07] josjoha Resident: the problem is that those who do use slave products will therefore be stronger, so boycotting is probably not going to be enough
[2011/04/21 08:07] Agnes Sharple: yes
[2011/04/21 08:07] Sophiekittycat Resident: a wikileaks of bad corporations is needed
[2011/04/21 08:07] josjoha Resident: they're all dictatorial
[2011/04/21 08:07] josjoha Resident: so as far as i'm concerned you could list them all
[2011/04/21 08:08] LolaRennt Blanco: resorteras
[2011/04/21 08:08] Trill Zapatero: we have this rundown walmart at four bridges
[2011/04/21 08:08] josjoha Resident: but it's a good thing, fair trade
[2011/04/21 08:08] Sophiekittycat Resident: listinga ll is useless you begin to list the worst and when a worst have to be better you can then list the next
[2011/04/21 08:08] Trill Zapatero: there's a big huge tree busting up through the concrete
[2011/04/21 08:08] josjoha Resident: sophie, i agree
[2011/04/21 08:08] Agnes Sharple: in my town a lot of workers have lost their jobs the last 20 years due to production set in eastern europe and china, cause its cheaper
[2011/04/21 08:08] Trill Zapatero: I mean, for us, SL is kinda our forum for the time being
[2011/04/21 08:09] Trill Zapatero: might as well do something about it
[2011/04/21 08:09] Agnes Sharple: yes Trill, use it for all its worth:))
[2011/04/21 08:10] josjoha Resident: in my system its already worked out, but we need to: 1. do fair trade individually, 2. form investment funds that invest in democratic companies, 3. form political parties about 10 per nation (usa:per state) ... and form 50 person voter groups, and - where needed/possible - form a resistance army
[2011/04/21 08:10] josjoha Resident: in some nations with active tyranny (such as China) we may needto organize a cell resistance
[2011/04/21 08:11] Plot Tracer: ok - as always... can we wrap up with a sentence each? how do we ensure our neighbour is not oppressed and exploited?
[2011/04/21 08:11] josjoha Resident: already its too late but we can do what we can
[2011/04/21 08:12] Sophiekittycat Resident: i preffer first to try by ghandi way
[2011/04/21 08:12] Agnes Sharple: me too Sophie
[2011/04/21 08:12] josjoha Resident: of course, because that will yield us public credibility
[2011/04/21 08:13] josjoha Resident: with that we could already win politically and through constructive setup of a new state model
[2011/04/21 08:13] Agnes Sharple: well, we can stop consuming and encourahe others to think a little more about what they actually do by consuming
[2011/04/21 08:13] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can as a mass change things if we realize that we can, but actually we always hear than one vote one people can change nothing but we are millions we need to unite
[2011/04/21 08:14] Trill Zapatero: yeah, we gotta look at our own greediness
[2011/04/21 08:14] Trill Zapatero: and be nice
[2011/04/21 08:14] Celia Bedrosian: Will that work?
[2011/04/21 08:14] Sophiekittycat Resident: we can win without too much blood if we act as citizens
[2011/04/21 08:14] josjoha Resident: i'm against uniting with too many people
[2011/04/21 08:14] Agnes Sharple: yes Sophie and thats why these discussions are so great!:))
[2011/04/21 08:14] Trill Zapatero: gotta start somewhere
[2011/04/21 08:14] josjoha Resident: because that will corrupt easily
[2011/04/21 08:14] Plot Tracer: yes - i agree. my last sentence than is, let us think about what we need and what we buy - bread and roses does not mean feeding every whim.
[2011/04/21 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: and a bloody revolution cant be corrupted look at what happened to russian revolution ? to the numerous revolutions in africa in south america
[2011/04/21 08:15] josjoha Resident: my last sentence is: get my plan, learn economics objectively, and go do it or face total chaos.
[2011/04/21 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: look at the terror state that followed french revolution
[2011/04/21 08:15] Sophiekittycat Resident: look at cromwell in english revolution
[2011/04/21 08:15] josjoha Resident: your criticism is off base because my revolution system is different to say the least
[2011/04/21 08:16] josjoha Resident: the feudal system was disgusting and its great the FRench detsroyed that
[2011/04/21 08:16] Agnes Sharple: lets think about what we actually need and what we really do not need :)
[2011/04/21 08:16] Agnes Sharple: thanks everybody for coming:))
[2011/04/21 08:18] josjoha Resident: once the third world war is on, it's too late to think calmly about complex issues, i wish ppl would use the remaining time
[2011/04/21 08:19] josjoha Resident: bye
[2011/04/21 08:19] josjoha Resident: i'm going, train for the combat that will come because ppl do nothing
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